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    Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

    From my online lj comm:
    Amazon is selling a self-published book defending pedophiles, sparking discussions about the retailer's obligation to vet items before they are sold in its online stores, and threats of boycott from Amazon customers if the book is not removed.

    The book, "The Pedophile's Guide to Love and Pleasure: a Child-lover's Code of Conduct" by Philip R. Greaves II, offers advice to pedophiles afraid of becoming the center of retaliation. It is an electronic book available for Amazon.com Inc.'s Kindle e-reader.

    The author's description (misspellings included) reads:

    "This is my attempt to make pedophile situations safer for those juveniles that find themselves involved in them, by establishing certian rules for these adults to follow. I hope to achieve this by appealing to the better nature of pedosexuals, with hope that their doing so will result in less hatred and perhaps liter sentences should they ever be caught."

    Amazon issued a statement that will no doubt fuel the outraged comments multiplying on the "Pedophile's Guide" Amazon page. "Amazon believes it is censorship not to sell certain books simply because we or others believe their message is objectionable," it reads. "Amazon does not support or promote hatred or criminal acts, however, we do support the right of every individual to make their own purchasing decisions."

    As a private company, Amazon has the right to sell whatever it wants as long as it's legal, and as such, offers books that cater to Holocaust deniers and other hate groups, as well as graphic dog fighting and cock fighting videos. Adult (legal) pornography, while available in book and magazine form, is not permitted in the Kindle e-reader store. This is possibly because of its iTunes partnership with the notoriously porn-free Apple which removed both "Ulysses" and the "Kama Sutra" from its own book store.

    A customer review on the "Pedophile's Guide" Amazon page written by "Outraged Mother" reads, "The line of immorality is at best a zone with ill defined boundaries. Whatever. This crosses into the unsavory and shameful side of the zone. Take it down."

    "There is a point when, even though a company has a no-censorship policy, that selling certain books is simply wrong," reads "Disgusting Abomination," another customer review. "Not censoring is one thing, and I commend that, but choosing to sell this book on a site that accessed by millions of people (including children) daily is reprehensible. This is a disgusting choice you have made, Amazon. Whatever money you are making off this book can't be worth the ire you are receiving for selling it."

    In an unexplained turn of events, more than 103 customer reviews populated the "Pedophile's Guide" page earlier today, when news first broke about the book's availability, but dropped down to less than 30 by late afternoon. The number of reviews has since grown to over 60.

    As news and outrage about the book spread, the first (presumed) Internet jokester chimed in with "A fantastic guide," the first five star review:

    "I can't thank Amazon enough for keeping this great work of literature up for those of us with 'special tastes.' The instructions and images in the guide were extremely insightful and led to a wonderful experience for both myself and my partner. Thank you for protecting free speech, Amazon!"

    In 2002, Amazon.com cited the First Amendment as justification for offering another book that advocates adult-child sex, "Understanding Loved Boys and Boylovers," by David L. Riegel. Further, the paperback book is still available on the site.

    At that time, Amazon stated, "Our goal is to support freedom of expression and to provide customers with the broadest selection possible so they can find, discover, and buy any title they might be seeking."

    An Amazon employee emphasized that "Understanding Loved Boys and Boylovers" was "not a 'how-to' manual for molesting children. The author simply expresses his point of view about what he feels are misunderstood."

    "Pedophile's Guide" has also triggered mounting outrage on Twitter and beyond. A chorus of Twitter users is calling for Amazon to pull the book, and a campaign to push the hashtag #BoycottAmazon into Twitter's top trends is underway.

    A keyword search for "Amazon" on the microblogging network reveals a growing number of retweets featuring Amazon's contact info and urges to keep calling and e-mailing "until the book is removed."
    Seriously. What are your thoughts?
    Satan is my spirit animal

    #2
    Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

    - Evelyn Beatrice Hall's summarization of Voltaire's attitude in her book The Friends of Voltaire, but not an actual quote of his words (as it is often attributed).

    I want, so badly, to throttle the author... but I support Amazon 100% in their decision not to censor the works that they sell.
    "Don't ever miss a good opportunity to shut up." - Harvey Davis "Gramps"

    Comment


      #3
      [/quote]
      So let me be clear. Are you saying it's ok to have a guidebook to a criminal act such as raping a child? Because it's not doing the raping. Just showing grown adults how to rape. Because that's what the guidebook does. I'm on the fence at the moment with the side I would take. So I just want to know a little more...other than that often quoted phrase. And what it really means to you in this particular matter.
      Satan is my spirit animal

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

        [quote author=Medusa link=topic=766.msg11866#msg11866 date=1289468074]So let me be clear. Are you saying it's ok to have a guidebook to a criminal act such as raping a child? Because it's not doing the raping. Just showing grown adults how to rape. Because that's what the guidebook does. I'm on the fence at the moment with the side I would take. So I just want to know a little more...other than that often quoted phrase. And what it really means to you in this particular matter.[/quote]

        I mean that there is an unfortunate side effect of free speech... it means that people get to say things that we don't like.

        I am not really OK that said book exists, but I do not fault Amazon for not censoring it.

        There is a lot of hideous literature in the world. And censoring it isn't an effective way to get rid of it.

        Now... do not take this for anything more than an argument against censorship:

        Should a book about how to be a safe homosexual be censored, because people think homosexuality is wrong?

        And, before I raise the ire of the forum, I am NOT, repeat NOT drawing a connection of ANY sort between homosexuality and pedophilia. But there are people in this world that DO believe that there is no difference between the two. And censoring one would call for demands, by those people, that the other be censored.

        Amazon is in the business of selling books. Amazon is not in the business of enforcing the opinions of people who want censorship.

        To clarify:
        A) I am appalled by the book and its author.
        B) I AM NOT drawing connection between homosexuality and pedophilia (I was only making an example).
        C) I do not hold Amazon at fault for avoiding censorship.

        (perhaps the Voltaire "quote" wasn't the best way to state my position)
        "Don't ever miss a good opportunity to shut up." - Harvey Davis "Gramps"

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

          This might sound horrible at first but...

          On the one hand, its nice to see someone setting down moral boundaries for even this... frankly horrendous practice. Its horrible enough to involve a child in sexual activity when they aren't really mentally or emotionally capable of responding to it in a healthy way, so if other abuse associated with it drops... well, its an improvement? Just like the 2002 book could be useful to psychologists who are literally trying to understand the behavior, this book might possibly serve *some* positive function. Psychiatrists need to know what pedophiles think to know how to address the behavior properly.

          On the other hand, this almost makes me happy the PATRIOT Act was passed - do you think the US government will subpoena the records of who bought those pedo-books, and target the US consumers as suspects of pedophilia?

          Its a freakshow of a book release. This "freak" is being paraded around for our fear and amusement, and gets free publicity for it to raise his sales. Knowing that when I pay attention to this and talk about it, I feed this media-troll of a news story, I look forward to ignoring it like the other "literature" that the article notes that amazon sells.


          The other side of free-speech: just because someone says it, doesn't mean we need to listen.
          "A true initiation never ends"-Robert Anton Wilson
          http://www.hermetic.com/crowley
          "Reality has become a commodity"-Stephen Colbert 1/29/07
          http://www.chaosmatrix.org/
          "Sometimes, when you can't breathe, there are people there to breathe for you" - Aesop Rock
          http://upholdingmaat.wordpress.com

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

            Thor, I get you don't think homo and pedo are the same. I got cha. But literature of bad taste...no problem. Literature that teaches you how to commit a crime in all 50 states? I have a problem with that. Why not make a book on how to make meth. Or how to kill and dismember a body? Being gay might be distasteful. But it's legal. And that's my point of contention. Is it ok to sell something that promotes an illegal activity?

            Should a book about how to be a safe homosexual be censored, because people think homosexuality is wrong?
            There is an opinion. You either think homosexuality is right or wrong.
            There is also a fact. Pedophilia is against the law in all 50 states.
            Satan is my spirit animal

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

              I'm with TS.

              I'm disgusted by the author, the book and it's content. If I had the freedom to, I'd like to take the sick bastage out past where the trains don't run and leave him for the buzzards and worms. To put it bluntly.

              That, however, is a completely different animal than Amazon's stance on censorship. I don't think it's right, either, to censor the offal and afterbirth that people try to make a buck off of because, as TS said, what would be next? Satanic Bibles and metaphysical guides? Who decides? Who's job is it to tell me what I can or cannot read? Certainly not Amazon's.




              "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

              "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius

              "The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice." - Mark Twain

              "The only gossip I'm interested in is things from the Weekly World News - 'Woman's bra bursts, 11 injured'. That kind of thing." - Johnny Depp


              Comment


                #8
                Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

                [quote author=Medusa link=topic=766.msg11870#msg11870 date=1289469117]
                Thor, I get you don't think homo and pedo are the same. I got cha. But literature of bad taste...no problem. Literature that teaches you how to commit a crime in all 50 states? I have a problem with that. Why not make a book on how to make meth. Or how to kill and dismember a body? Being gay might be distasteful. But it's legal. And that's my point of contention. Is it ok to sell something that promotes an illegal activity?
                There is an opinion. You either think homosexuality is right or wrong.
                There is also a fact. Pedophilia is against the law in all 50 states.
                [/quote]

                I am sure there ARE books on how to make meth. Until recently, marijuana was illegal in all 50 states, yet the magazine High Times circulated with impunity. The Anarchist's Cookbook is a very controversial, yet First Amendment protected book. The Bible condones rape and incest (in the story of Lot and his daughters (they raped him)). Murder mysteries are thought exercises on how to get away with murder... etc.
                "Don't ever miss a good opportunity to shut up." - Harvey Davis "Gramps"

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

                  [quote author=ChainLightning link=topic=766.msg11872#msg11872 date=1289469573]
                  Who's job is it to tell me what I can or cannot read? Certainly not Amazon's.
                  [/quote]To play a little bit of Devil's Advocate, it *is* Amazon's job to determine how to best make money off of books. Offering a very specialized book like this isn't going to bring that much of a profit, but the outcry does threaten to harm them.

                  Thanks to the expansive boycott, I'd think about buying stock between now and when this issue either ends with an apology or blows over completely. I just can't afford the initial investment, or I'd pay off my student loans while I'm still in school!
                  "A true initiation never ends"-Robert Anton Wilson
                  http://www.hermetic.com/crowley
                  "Reality has become a commodity"-Stephen Colbert 1/29/07
                  http://www.chaosmatrix.org/
                  "Sometimes, when you can't breathe, there are people there to breathe for you" - Aesop Rock
                  http://upholdingmaat.wordpress.com

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

                    [quote author=ChainLightning link=topic=766.msg11872#msg11872 date=1289469573]
                    I'm with TS.

                    I'm disgusted by the author, the book and it's content. If I had the freedom to, I'd like to take the sick bastage out past where the trains don't run and leave him for the buzzards and worms. To put it bluntly.

                    That, however, is a completely different animal than Amazon's stance on censorship. I don't think it's right, either, to censor the offal and afterbirth that people try to make a buck off of because, as TS said, what would be next? Satanic Bibles and metaphysical guides? Who decides? Who's job is it to tell me what I can or cannot read? Certainly not Amazon's.
                    [/quote]
                    Ok. Seems we are missing my point in my post. It's not the content. As far as I know metaphysical books and books about Satan are legal because metaphysical...stuff and satan are still pretty legal. I am talking about publishing a book that describes to you as a guide how to commit a crime.

                    Murder mysteries are thought exercises on how to get away with murder... etc.
                    You do have a point there. But it's not a murder guide. This book isn't talking about some fantasy story here. It's describing step by step on how to prey on children and rape them. Sure the Satanic bible has a step by step guide on how to do a Satanic ritual. But wearing a black robe and drinking wine in your backyard while bumping Black Sabath muzic aint no crime.

                    But then it could end up being thought police. So like I said, I am iffy. Meh. Goodnight. :P
                    Satan is my spirit animal

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

                      [quote author=Medusa link=topic=766.msg11878#msg11878 date=1289470431]
                      Ok. Seems we are missing my point in my post. It's not the content. As far as I know metaphysical books and books about Satan are legal because metaphysical...stuff and satan are still pretty legal. I am talking about publishing a book that describes to you as a guide how to commit a crime.
                      You do have a point there. But it's not a murder guide. This book isn't talking about some fantasy story here. It's describing step by step on how to prey on children and rape them. Sure the Satanic bible has a step by step guide on how to do a Satanic ritual. But wearing a black robe and drinking wine in your backyard while bumping Black Sabath muzic aint no crime.

                      But then it could end up being thought police. So like I said, I am iffy. Meh. Goodnight. :P
                      [/quote]At the age of 12, I read Abbie Hoffman's Steal This Book, which I checked out of the public library. The famed anarchist described ways to live as a homeless person, included a short prototype to the Anarchist's Cookbook, demonized government, acknowledged ways to either keep a protest going or turn it into a riot, where to buy gear that will help you in a riot, and taught some basic self defense and deferred to other sources... and advocating using it against police, especially riot police. It was a wide brush, but he touched all of this.

                      No Joke. Thank god for Libraries
                      "A true initiation never ends"-Robert Anton Wilson
                      http://www.hermetic.com/crowley
                      "Reality has become a commodity"-Stephen Colbert 1/29/07
                      http://www.chaosmatrix.org/
                      "Sometimes, when you can't breathe, there are people there to breathe for you" - Aesop Rock
                      http://upholdingmaat.wordpress.com

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

                        But is being homeless a criminal act that is a kin to raping a child? Again, I have no problem with content except when it deals with criminal acts. Not that I have the actual problem. But wouldn't you think a store would have a problem selling a book that could end up being sued over? I mean think of LAW AND ORDER. In a year some kid's mom will sue Amazon because it sold the very book that was used to rape the kid. And you know the mom isn't going to sue the rapist. Because the rapist's lawyer is also gonna sue Amazon. And then Amazon is gonna go broke and start charging me $25 shipping and handling because it got sued.

                        Oh man. I should stop posting after 2am. I am way past silly mode......
                        Satan is my spirit animal

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

                          [quote author=Medusa link=topic=766.msg11881#msg11881 date=1289471298]
                          But is being homeless a criminal act that is a kin to raping a child? Again, I have no problem with content except when it deals with criminal acts. Not that I have the actual problem. But wouldn't you think a store would have a problem selling a book that could end up being sued over? I mean think of LAW AND ORDER. In a year some kid's mom will sue Amazon because it sold the very book that was used to rape the kid. And you know the mom isn't going to sue the rapist. Because the rapist's lawyer is also gonna sue Amazon. And then Amazon is gonna go broke and start charging me $25 shipping and handling because it got sued.

                          Oh man. I should stop posting after 2am. I am way past silly mode......
                          [/quote]Well,... Hoffman didn't get sued for enabling others to incite riots, assault police officers, nor for antics that included cherry bombs concealed in the bottom of empty shaving cream cans - the last of which, added fuel and shrapnel to the explosion. However, at the time I read the book, cherry bombs were not readily available, and shaving cream manufacturers had somewhat changed their pressurized can design.

                          Is this pedophile less free to discuss criminal activity than Abbie Hoffman? Hoffman was openly advocating felonies, while trying to tell people how to be smart about it. This person is doing the same.
                          "A true initiation never ends"-Robert Anton Wilson
                          http://www.hermetic.com/crowley
                          "Reality has become a commodity"-Stephen Colbert 1/29/07
                          http://www.chaosmatrix.org/
                          "Sometimes, when you can't breathe, there are people there to breathe for you" - Aesop Rock
                          http://upholdingmaat.wordpress.com

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

                            Writing the book is not a crime. Selling the book is not a crime. Reading the book is not a crime.

                            The fact that the book explains some basic guidelines for pedophiles? Irrelevant. Absolutely, disgustingly hideous. But irrelevant, nonetheless.




                            "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

                            "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius

                            "The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice." - Mark Twain

                            "The only gossip I'm interested in is things from the Weekly World News - 'Woman's bra bursts, 11 injured'. That kind of thing." - Johnny Depp


                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Amazon defends 'Pedophile's Guide'

                              Ugh this is not only morally objectionable, but it's also really bad marketing.

                              Do they -want- to lower their sales by tarnishing their image? Because it sure seems like they do. And while, because they sell over the internet, their customer base is basically the mass market at whole, actions like this lose more sales than they gain through the defense of "free speech."

                              I don't support total freedom of business, because in todays market it's just BAD BUSINESS to just do whatever the hell you want. A lot of consumers are smarter these days and it will result in a loss of sales. All moral issues aside, it's just crappy marketing. Sometimes, you have to "fire" customers in order to uphold reputation and keep boycotts from reducing sales. I'm certain that if Amazon doesn't run into this issue now, they will. They're definitely the market leader now so I think that's why they make these choices, but that's short sighted and I bet 100% it will cause them issues in the future.

                              Comment

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