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Edda Discussion: Völuspá

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    #16

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      #17
      6. Then sought the gods | their assembly-seats,The holy ones, | and council held;
      Names then gave they | to noon and twilight,
      Morning they named, | and the waning moon,
      Night and evening, | the years to number.


      7. At Ithavoll met | the mighty gods,
      Shrines and temples | they timbered high;
      Forges they set, and | they smithied ore,
      Tongs they wrought, | and tools they fashioned.


      8. In their dwellings at peace | they played at tables,
      Of gold no lack | did the gods then know,--
      Till thither came | up giant-maids three,
      Huge of might, | out of Jotunheim.


      9. Then sought the gods | their assembly-seats,
      The holy ones, | and council held,
      To find who should raise | the race of dwarfs
      Out of Brimir's blood | and the legs of Blain.


      10. There was Motsognir | the mightiest made
      Of all the dwarfs, | and Durin next;
      Many a likeness | of men they made,
      The dwarfs in the earth, | as Durin said.


      As I said, really busy, so I'll make my comments a bit later. But THIS was a a priority ENJOY

      ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

      RIP

      I have never been across the way
      Seen the desert and the birds
      You cut your hair short
      Like a shush to an insult
      The world had been yelling
      Since the day you were born
      Revolting with anger
      While it smiled like it was cute
      That everything was shit.

      - J. Wylder

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        #18
        Originally posted by Wednesday View Post
        It isn't common knowledge that the Vanir (especially Freyja and Freyr) were often seen as animal gods rather than personified gods. Like the Native American Great Bear spirit, Freyja and Freyr were often conceptualized as the Great Boar or the Golden Sow.
        Do you have any references to books or articles on this? I'm not disputing it, I just never come across it before in scientific literature, though it matches well with my own thoughts on it, and am really interested in reading more.


        Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
        I'm just sticking my head in to say that I have the flu and I think I'm gonna wait for the next lot of verse to go up lol. I'm not sure that I have anything meaningful to add with my cotton wool brain :dead:
        Awww, poor you. Hope you get better soon.
        Warning: The above post may contain traces of sarcasm.

        An apostrophe is the difference between a business that knows its shit, and a business that knows it's shit.

        "Why is every object we don't understand always called a thing?" (McCoy. Star Trek: The Moive Picture)

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          #19
          ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

          RIP

          I have never been across the way
          Seen the desert and the birds
          You cut your hair short
          Like a shush to an insult
          The world had been yelling
          Since the day you were born
          Revolting with anger
          While it smiled like it was cute
          That everything was shit.

          - J. Wylder

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by Heka View Post
            And MoonRaven, they go up Mondays Australian time, which means they should be up before the US Monday evening, even if I run a bit late.
            Thanks . Our current heatwave have made my brain break down, so let's hope it doesn't affect my answers too much. They promise that things will get cooler later in the week though.
            Warning: The above post may contain traces of sarcasm.

            An apostrophe is the difference between a business that knows its shit, and a business that knows it's shit.

            "Why is every object we don't understand always called a thing?" (McCoy. Star Trek: The Moive Picture)

            Comment


              #21

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                #22
                Originally posted by MoonRaven View Post
                Do you have any references to books or articles on this? I'm not disputing it, I just never come across it before in scientific literature, though it matches well with my own thoughts on it, and am really interested in reading more.




                Awww, poor you. Hope you get better soon.

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                  #23
                  Thanks . I've read some of Gimbutas' works but I've missed this.


                  And now on to the next verses.

                  Okay I think I'll deal with one verse per day. More manageable all around.
                  Same procedure as before, original verse, my own translation, my conclusions on the verse.

                  After the gods created the world in verse 4 and in 5 we learned that nothing yet really knew what/who it was, the gods now sit down and designates jobs and generally creates order. And Wednesday pointed out earlier in Norse mythology it is not so much a case of Good vs Evil as it is Order vs Chaos. One thing I've always wondered is how many gods there was at this point, so far we have only heard of Burr's sons, plural, but no specific number, also later on when humans are created we get the names of Odin and two of his brothers but Voluspa and Snorri names different names so did Sorri use a different tradition or is it a case of getting the names mixed up?
                  Warning: The above post may contain traces of sarcasm.

                  An apostrophe is the difference between a business that knows its shit, and a business that knows it's shit.

                  "Why is every object we don't understand always called a thing?" (McCoy. Star Trek: The Moive Picture)

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by MoonRaven View Post
                    Thanks . I've read some of Gimbutas' works but I've missed this.


                    And now on to the next verses.

                    Okay I think I'll deal with one verse per day. More manageable all around.
                    Same procedure as before, original verse, my own translation, my conclusions on the verse.

                    After the gods created the world in verse 4 and in 5 we learned that nothing yet really knew what/who it was, the gods now sit down and designates jobs and generally creates order. And Wednesday pointed out earlier in Norse mythology it is not so much a case of Good vs Evil as it is Order vs Chaos. One thing I've always wondered is how many gods there was at this point, so far we have only heard of Burr's sons, plural, but no specific number, also later on when humans are created we get the names of Odin and two of his brothers but Voluspa and Snorri names different names so did Sorri use a different tradition or is it a case of getting the names mixed up?
                    I always like to hammer home an important point (over and over) thats highlighted here: the gods DID NOT create the sun and moon, the stars or the earth. They simply were the organisers. Unlike God, who created all things, the Germanic gods were created in the spontaneous evolution within Ginnungingap alongside all other manners of life and spirit. The importance of gods being called reginn (rulers) is that they aren't a spiritual species more divine than other life, they are actually spirit/life that just took charge. That is the definition of a god in Germanic Mythology--a ruler, a leader, a mitigating and controlling being. This is why kings could be gods and women could be gods.

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by Wednesday View Post
                      I always like to hammer home an important point (over and over) thats highlighted here: the gods DID NOT create the sun and moon, the stars or the earth. They simply were the organisers. Unlike God, who created all things, the Germanic gods were created in the spontaneous evolution within Ginnungingap alongside all other manners of life and spirit. The importance of gods being called reginn (rulers) is that they aren't a spiritual species more divine than other life, they are actually spirit/life that just took charge. That is the definition of a god in Germanic Mythology--a ruler, a leader, a mitigating and controlling being. This is why kings could be gods and women could be gods.
                      Now I rarely hypothesise about what others think, far too easy to go wrong, but I can't help but think that you think I mean something with the use of the word create that I don't.

                      When I use the word create I don't mean creation as the way it is used in the Abrahamic traditions. No 'Let there be light' stuff.

                      As I explained after in my conclusions on verse 4 the gods made the world from Ymir, using his body as their material. So I've always seen them as potters or smiths, they take something and create something else out of it, but, like the potter or the smith, they need materials to work with. Nor does this act of 'creation', sorry I can't think of a better word to use if you have one I'd love to hear it; build perhaps?, make them in any way more spiritual than anyone else. Possibly more powerful but then there were heroes and volvas in some of the old stories, far more powerful than ordinary people, that walked in the world, but these were still human. One thing I've always loved about the Old Norse gods is that they are so very human in their nature.

                      If the giants are chaos, and Ymir as the Ur-giant must then be primodial chaos, I suppose that one can see the building/creation of the world(s) from Ymir's body as a way of making order out of that chaos.
                      As for how much of the world they organised, whether is was 'just' earth and sea or whether the moon, sun and stars were involved too, there are several stories about. In one the gods take Ymir's eyes and make them sun and moon and his teeth the stars, in another the sun and moon are two siblings who drives two heavenly carts across the sky either voluntarily or as punishment. In the case of the latter story sources disagree on whether it is one or the other.
                      Warning: The above post may contain traces of sarcasm.

                      An apostrophe is the difference between a business that knows its shit, and a business that knows it's shit.

                      "Why is every object we don't understand always called a thing?" (McCoy. Star Trek: The Moive Picture)

                      Comment


                        #26
                        ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

                        RIP

                        I have never been across the way
                        Seen the desert and the birds
                        You cut your hair short
                        Like a shush to an insult
                        The world had been yelling
                        Since the day you were born
                        Revolting with anger
                        While it smiled like it was cute
                        That everything was shit.

                        - J. Wylder

                        Comment


                          #27

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                            #28
                            Originally posted by Wednesday View Post
                            Only quoted you because you had the verses, MoonRaven. Lazy and on my phone--sorry for any misunderstanding.
                            Oh it's fine, I can understand lazy . As long as we are in the same page.

                            Okay next verse. A bit late I know, but temperatures are hitting 90F around here and my brain is breaking down.



                            In the first half of this verse I differ from the official translation in earnest. The first thing the Ithavoll that I that I have translated Ida's or Idunn's meadow, field or orchard. Itha later in the day became Ida or Idunn in the various Nordic tongues and one of the Aesynir (goddesses) is called Idunn, she was the wife of Bragi, the Skald god, and was the keeper of the apples of youth. Whether this goddess has anything to do with the Ida here I don't know but velli (root word vollr) means something like field as in an open space, but I have also seen it used to describe a place where something that has been planted grows though not necessarily corn(grain) but also bushes and trees. Whether the Itha mentioned here has anything at all to do with the goddess is anyones guess since it is neer clarified, but making a connection is alluring all things concidered.
                            Where in the world your translator got 'temples and shrines' from I really couldn't say. Horg means something akin to farm or hall and hof is the dwelling of a lord or ruler, there is absolutely nothing divine or spiritual in nature of these buildings except that they are inhabited by gods. (See previous comments on the nature of the gods)

                            The second half of this have always interested me since we here see the gods as smiths, forging things, but it never happens later and all their items of power or recognition, from Thor's hammer Mjolnir, over Odin's spear Gungnir, to Sif's golden hair, have been forged by dwarves. So I've always wondered, cause if the gods could forge here what happened that they couldn't later? We may see part of an answer in the next verses.
                            Warning: The above post may contain traces of sarcasm.

                            An apostrophe is the difference between a business that knows its shit, and a business that knows it's shit.

                            "Why is every object we don't understand always called a thing?" (McCoy. Star Trek: The Moive Picture)

                            Comment


                              #29
                              "And there they build elaborate (well build) farms (halls) and castles (courts) [not castle in the medieval sense, but as the dwelling of a ruler]"

                              If I look at is from an outsider point of view, I think this was written in that sense so that most people would understand it when read? In most parts of the world a ruler lives in a palace or a castle, so mybe it is written like that so they know it is a dwelling for a ruler. Some of it might also be artistic licence by the translator to puff it up a little
                              http://theheathenstudyclub.proboards.com/

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                                #30
                                Originally posted by lillywolf View Post
                                "And there they build elaborate (well build) farms (halls) and castles (courts) [not castle in the medieval sense, but as the dwelling of a ruler]"

                                If I look at is from an outsider point of view, I think this was written in that sense so that most people would understand it when read? In most parts of the world a ruler lives in a palace or a castle, so mybe it is written like that so they know it is a dwelling for a ruler. Some of it might also be artistic licence by the translator to puff it up a little
                                Can I ask something? When you say translator do you mean the one who did the verses Heka is posting or the bit you quoted here? Because if you are referring to the latter the translation is my own complete amateur effort, but I can promise that no artistic license has been taken. In fact I do my best to give as close an approximation of the word of the original text as can be done in modern English, that's why I sometimes have to put in more than one word since there isn't an exact tranlation of said words, and leave artistry and silly things like meter and rhyme to the professionals :P


                                Right, two verses today. Hopefully I'll get the last done by tomorrow night, otherwise I'll try to get in up Monday before Heka posts the next ones.


                                What exactly happened between verse 8 and 9 and what those maidens, whoever they were, did or represented it appears that the gods now is in need of help. Whether the maidens took part of the gods power away, or the gods simply foresee being so occupied with this new threat, they no longer seems to have time to make their own things, and so they make the dwarves.
                                They make them out of Brimi's blood and Blain's limbs, which are likely kennings for the sea and the earth. And here I can. In a logical place, introduce the, in Old Norse poetry and stories, often used concepts of kennings and heiti.

                                A heiti is basically a pseudonym, such as when Odin is called, or calls himself, Valfather. All names in Norse mythology means something though in some cases the meaning have been lost, for instance we no longer know what Brimi and Blain means. A kenning is describing by using different words that relates to the original expression or idea, a modern 'kenning' could be describing a camel by calling it 'a ship of the desert'. Both a ship and a camel is a mode of transport and both 'roll' when they move so in this a camel is akin to a ship, but unlike a ship a camel belongs in a desert. This is what one could call a logical kenning, with a bit of brain most would be able to figure out what I meant by 'ship of the desert' even if they weren't originally aware that I meant a camel. Some kennings thoug are tied to particular stories and if the story is lost to us we might not be able to figure out what is meant. An example could be the kenning 'Frodi's flour'. This one is tied to a story about a Danish king called Frodi who was said to have a mill that could grind out anything the one turning the millstone wanted. Frodi being human, and a king to boot, of course wanted gold and so when you encounter the kenning 'Frodi's flour' what is meant is gold. But if we had lost the story about king Frodi we might not be aware of what was meant by the kenning if it couldn't be deduced from the context.
                                'Brimi's blood' and 'Blain's limbs' are what could be called logical kennings too. While we don't know that Brimi or Blain is heiti for Ymir it would make sense since the earth was made from his flesh and bones and the sea from his blood. Though in all honesty we can't be 100% certain that this interpretation is the correct one since we do not know that Brimi and Blain are heiti for Ymir.
                                Warning: The above post may contain traces of sarcasm.

                                An apostrophe is the difference between a business that knows its shit, and a business that knows it's shit.

                                "Why is every object we don't understand always called a thing?" (McCoy. Star Trek: The Moive Picture)

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