Edda Discussion: Völuspá

[MoonRaven]

Here the first of the dwarves are created, or at least mentioned, the greatest of them and then Durinn.
These dwarves does, for some reason, start making bodies that are human shaped, but whether these are the first attempts to create human being or if it's an attempt to make more dwarves is unclear. Equally unclear is it whether they are doing this of their own volition or at command of the gods.

[Wednesday]

[Heka]

11. Nyi and Nithi, | Northri and Suthri,
Austri and Vestri, | Althjof, Dvalin,
Nar and Nain, | Niping, Dain,
Bifur, Bofur, | Bombur, Nori,
An and Onar, | Ai, Mjothvitnir.

12. Vigg and Gandalf) | Vindalf, Thrain,
Thekk and Thorin, | Thror, Vit and Lit,
Nyr and Nyrath,-- | now have I told--
Regin and Rathsvith-- | the list aright.


14. The race of the dwarfs | in Dvalin's throng
Down to Lofar | the list must I tell;
The rocks they left, | and through wet lands
They sought a home | in the fields of sand.

15. There were Draupnir | and Dolgthrasir,
Hor, Haugspori, | Hlevang, Gloin,
Dori, Ori, | Duf, Andvari,
Skirfir, Virfir, | Skafith, Ai.

Sorry guys!

[lillywolf]

[Wednesday]

Shit - It's Tuesday!

Here we go, ch 11-15!

11. Nyi and Nithi, | Northri and Suthri,
Austri and Vestri, | Althjof, Dvalin,
Nar and Nain, | Niping, Dain,
Bifur, Bofur, | Bombur, Nori,
An and Onar, | Ai, Mjothvitnir.

12. Vigg and Gandalf) | Vindalf, Thrain,
Thekk and Thorin, | Thror, Vit and Lit,
Nyr and Nyrath,-- | now have I told--
Regin and Rathsvith-- | the list aright.


14. The race of the dwarfs | in Dvalin's throng
Down to Lofar | the list must I tell;
The rocks they left, | and through wet lands
They sought a home | in the fields of sand.

15. There were Draupnir | and Dolgthrasir,
Hor, Haugspori, | Hlevang, Gloin,
Dori, Ori, | Duf, Andvari,
Skirfir, Virfir, | Skafith, Ai.

Sorry guys!

So far in the Voluspa we get the Volva recounting the creation of our reality and the powers that initiated it. Major points being that the world was spontaneous and organic (world-accepting folk religion), the gods defined by their roles and functions and not by their species (polytheist worldview), and that each living thing is part of this dynamic spiritual.

So the "gods" do all this and set reality into motion and they're having fun and playing games and then three women appear and unsettle them. These three women are often linked to the Norns (Fates). If correct, this is the moment where cause meets effect, otherwise known as wyrd. Every action has a consequence, the choices of the "gods" have set this law in motion. Past, Present, and Future appear (though not as clear cut as that in the Germanic worldview). This is where they become gods. This is where their functions and roles in shaping the big scheme of things have instilled within them the quality of providence. Thor will die at Ragnarok because Thor is responsible for Ragnarok (Germanic worldview of family/social structure and honor). The gods will fight the Jotuns for control because this world and its fate is now their responsibility.

Taking on that responsibility they take on the task of creating. The past builds the present and the present builds the future. Out of the past (the maggots of Ymir) they create the tools of the present from the Underworld/Realm of Dwarves/Past/Wyrd. Vigg the battle axe. Lofar the praise. Aurvang the grasslands. Fraeg the fame. Hannar, skill. This weird list of dwarves names can actually be emphasizing the mad dash to organize it all, to provide and maintain the trajectory of the future. As in it could be read: "suddenly they pulled-- from the Tired (Durinn) and Apathetic (Modsognir) past--the wolf, the plow, the war, the hearth, the field, the skill, the honor, the wetlands, and the battle axe, and manifested it in the likeness of man."

And then they were gods.


Just what I take away from it, anyways.

[MoonRaven]

To MoonRaven,I was not talking about YOUR translation, yours was just the first one I saw , I meant the original translation if you understand what I mean. I know that when you translate from one language to another it sometimes ends up not reading right or having a different meaning etc. What I was trying to say was that when these were initially written down the original translator might have done it in that way to make it easier to understand for , in want of a better word, the general public.

From what I can gather, like with most civilizations, most of these things were handed down by word of mouth so I was not attacking you personally and I am sorry if you took it in that sense MoonRaven I just meant that artistic licence would have probably been present when they were first translated.

Lilly it's fine, I didn't see it as an attack but truly wondered whether I had been less that clear in what I was doing.
I'm not used to discussing something like this in a forum and sort of vacillate between wanting to be informal, because this is an on-line forum, and treating this thing as a academic paper, because of the subject. If I appear to overreact at even potential criticism it's due to my mentor in my bachelor and master degree who shredded everything I wrote, several times over, so there was no possibility of my text being misunderstood, so when I see something I have written that may have been misunderstood I revert to form and try to clear it up.
Don't let that stop you from quoting me though, I'll try to remember that this is a different kind of medium and treat it accordingly

I understood the "they made" to refer to the gods work in creating dwarves and creatures from Ymir and not the dwarves work? Ref: Jochen, Voluspa.

[Rae'ya]

Shit - It's Tuesday!

Here we go, ch 11-15!

11. Nyi and Nithi, | Northri and Suthri,
Austri and Vestri, | Althjof, Dvalin,
Nar and Nain, | Niping, Dain,
Bifur, Bofur, | Bombur, Nori,
An and Onar, | Ai, Mjothvitnir.

12. Vigg and Gandalf) | Vindalf, Thrain,
Thekk and Thorin, | Thror, Vit and Lit,
Nyr and Nyrath,-- | now have I told--
Regin and Rathsvith-- | the list aright.


14. The race of the dwarfs | in Dvalin's throng
Down to Lofar | the list must I tell;
The rocks they left, | and through wet lands
They sought a home | in the fields of sand.

15. There were Draupnir | and Dolgthrasir,
Hor, Haugspori, | Hlevang, Gloin,
Dori, Ori, | Duf, Andvari,
Skirfir, Virfir, | Skafith, Ai.

Sorry guys!

Well I'm way late and I come in on the section that is commonly thought by scholars to be an interpolation lol.

First a caveat: I haven't done anything with the Edda myself apart from read my Bellows translation, so I'm just going purely by how things feel to me rather than any sort of actual research or scholarly work of my own. The Poetic Edda is a tad more important to me than the Prose Edda, but I honestly don't put an enormous amount of store into either of them. So...

I tend to agree that these verses are a latter insertion. They just don't seem to fit very well into the rest of the work. I feel that verses 10-16 are the interpolated sections. Nowhere else in the Voluspa does the Volva make a detailed list of names like this, unless you count the latter verse where she names certain Valkyries. It just doesn't seem to fit, and I'd have to see the original language and translations to consider whether the dwarf names are somehow an allusion to creating order in the world. Even if that were true it still just doesn't really fit, with the change from talking about creation quite plainly to suddenly switching to what?... dwarf names... they aren't even kennings.

Otherwise I'm not sure that I have any real input on this section lol

[Heka]

[MoonRaven]

First a caveat: I haven't done anything with the Edda myself apart from read my Bellows translation, so I'm just going purely by how things feel to me rather than any sort of actual research or scholarly work of my own. The Poetic Edda is a tad more important to me than the Prose Edda, but I honestly don't put an enormous amount of store into either of them. So...

Rae'ya it's fine. Actually it's great I have missed you in this discussion. I tend to over-think and go all scientific over subjects I care about, though I can by no means be counted as a reconstructionist. What I know on an academic level and how I practice is two very different things. I love to hear others more spontaneous and/or personal take on it.
In fact I am a bit worried that I have been scaring people off by my mammoth interpretations, so I have more or less decided that from now on I'll post what I have on Sundays. That way everyone else can have a say without feeling steamrolled.

So, my take tomorrow.

[Wednesday]

But I'm agreeing, these 5 verses kinda mean not much at all.

Not necessarily. Just because they were possibly a later addition doesn't mean that they didn't have a purpose at all. Icelandic poetry was full of riddles and kennings and double entendres; that's the fun of it. Just off the top of my head, here we have a ridiculously long list of names recited to a god known for his ridiculously large number of names (and who even recites them all in Grimnismal.). What could that signify?

Metrical lists were also an important part of Norse poetry. There's even lists of horse names and Ox names in the Edda. Poetry was so important because it was a successful means of memorizing and transmitting information in oral societies. Again, even if these list aren't authentic to the original spoken tales, they were certainly added in the reconstruction of the poem for some larger purpose.

We already know that the volva has to prove her knowledge to Odin and that she's somewhat belligerent about having to do so. Humor has its place in the Eddas, is it possible her lengthy list of names is supposed to make us laugh? Here is the Alfather intensely commanding her to foretell the futures and prove her ability and she kills several minutes dryly listing all the dwarves in creation (which also serves as a learning tool for the listener).

When Freyja turned her favored hero into a boar and rode him to the Jotunmaid, the giantess had to list off his entire genealogy. List names are obviously an important ritualistic and religious aspect of the worldview.

[Rae'ya]

Rae'ya it's fine. Actually it's great I have missed you in this discussion. I tend to over-think and go all scientific over subjects I care about, though I can by no means be counted as a reconstructionist. What I know on an academic level and how I practice is two very different things. I love to hear others more spontaneous and/or personal take on it.
In fact I am a bit worried that I have been scaring people off by my mammoth interpretations, so I have more or less decided that from now on I'll post what I have on Sundays. That way everyone else can have a say without feeling steamrolled.

So, my take tomorrow.

Yeah, I'm late into this because I had the flu for two weeks, then I was on holidays in the Blue Mountains for a week (not great to be sick on a holiday). I actually still have the flu, though it's not so bad as it was. Off to the doctor tomorrow 'cos I have a feeling I may need a bit of help getting over this one lol You don't want to know how many hours I've spent in bed today!

I was actually going to ask you if I can cut and paste your translations for my own records... are they literal? I've been wanting a copy of the Old Norse and have a mind to collect some private translations, because I find it very interesting to see the nuance of terminology etc. I know that many of the published translations have taken some literary license to make the translation sound good, which of course effects the original wording and feel of the poems. One day I'd like to make my own literal translation, but I have only a smattering of Old Norse and I can't afford the Old Norse language books. One day... lol

[MoonRaven]

Yeah, I'm late into this because I had the flu for two weeks, then I was on holidays in the Blue Mountains for a week (not great to be sick on a holiday). I actually still have the flu, though it's not so bad as it was. Off to the doctor tomorrow 'cos I have a feeling I may need a bit of help getting over this one lol You don't want to know how many hours I've spent in bed today!

I was actually going to ask you if I can cut and paste your translations for my own records... are they literal? I've been wanting a copy of the Old Norse and have a mind to collect some private translations, because I find it very interesting to see the nuance of terminology etc. I know that many of the published translations have taken some literary license to make the translation sound good, which of course effects the original wording and feel of the poems. One day I'd like to make my own literal translation, but I have only a smattering of Old Norse and I can't afford the Old Norse language books. One day... lol

Aww poor you, I hope you get better soon

By all means copy away, though if you use it anywhere exept privately please credit me. It's mostly that I don't want you catching flack for my mistakes.
The original poem text is copy/pasted from here http://etext.old.no/Bugge/voluspa/voluspa1.html. The translation is as literal as I have been able to manage, though I am by no means fluent in Old Norse. At least, I wouldn't take upon myself to compose anything in it. But between the knowledge I do have, two translation (a Danish and a Swedish) plus the fact that I am fluent in all three Nordic languages - which definitely gives me a head start, and an English-Old Norse dictionary I have dug up, I would like to think that it is a decent translation.
The largest problem is that in many cases there isn't an exact word in modern English or one that is even close, despite the fact that English have roots in Old Norse as well. Actually English should be called Anglo-Saxon so much as it should be called Anglo-Norse, many of the basic everyday words such as 'I', 'you', 'we', 'they', 'could', 'should', 'would', 'horse', 'horn', 'window', just to give a few examples, have roots in Old Norse. So I have to give either an approximate translation or use several words, that's why such things as meter and rhyme have gone out the window in this.

About the English-Old Norse dictionary, I have it in a pdf file. Though I've found it on-line it is, as far as I can tell and concidering that it was posedt on a university website, University of York in the UK I think it was, it appears to be a decent one. If you want I can hunt down the link to it again? It would give you a place to start.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay and now for the verses.


Things will be slightly different this time around. For one I'll deal with all verses under one since there isn't much to say about them individually. Secondly about the translation. As I stated before all names in Old Norse meant something, but I have only written a translation of the name where I am absolutely, 100% positive I am correct. Where I have written the original name there may be a modern word/name but I am not certain of it. Also in some cases, such as Dvalinn, the meaning has been lost.
As you will likely notice these verses contain far more dwarf names than the one in Heka's translation. That is because I have used the oldest written version we have access to while the one Heka's translator uses is a younger one where the list have been shortened. But I'll get back to that.

First let me say that if anyone is getting Tolkien feelings reading this, what with both Bombur, Dvalinn, Thror, the Oakensheilds and whatnot popping up, it is perfectly logical. Tolkien was a professor of Old English literature with a speciality in the oldest Anglo-Saxon poems as well as in its Germanic counterpart and in runes. Besides, when we go that far back it is hard to untangle what was Anglo-Saxon and what was Old Norse. We didn't just raid and trade in physical property but in the intellectual one as well ;D. So when he created Middle Earth he stole heavily from Old Norse poetry and lore. In fact, Middle Earth is just another name of Midgard.
And yes, Gandalf mean something akin to Powerful or Radiant, Spirit or Elf. Appropriate name for a wizard, wouldn't you say?

Secondly I have to seconding Rae'ya. If scholarly theory is to be trusted, these verses have almost certainly been inserted in the poem at a later date though whence they came from or why is contested.
The reason most scholars think that these are an insert is that meter, rhyme and verses are miles off from the rest of the poem in this oldest version, well they tend to cushion it in more academic terms but that's what they mean. To give you a modern day equivalent of just how badly this fits when performed it would be like a Thrash Metal band suddenly started doing a Taylor Swift cover song. Alright maybe not that much off, but I was trying to get a point across.
In the later versions there have literary speaking been chopped a heel and a toe to make it fit. While there have been changes to the rest of the poem as well in later version in no other place is it as radical as here. Trying to change Taylor Swift in Thrash Metal is hard :P Secondly, while Eddic poetry is nowhere near as strict when it comes to meter and rhyme as Skaldic the radical change in these six verses, something that doesn't occur in any other place of the poem indicates that this is not part of the 'original'.

And yes, the names do all mean something, but what most modern people forget is that all

[MoonRaven]

[Heka]

16. Alf and Yngvi, | Eikinskjaldi,
Fjalar and Frosti, | Fith and Ginnar;
So for all time | shall the tale be known,
The list of all | the forbears of Lofar.


17. Then from the throng | did three come forth,
From the home of the gods, | the mighty and gracious;
Two without fate | on the land they found,
Ask and Embla, | empty of might.


19. An ash I know, | Yggdrasil its name,
With water white | is the great tree wet;
Thence come the dews | that fall in the dales,
Green by Urth's well | does it ever grow.


20. Thence come the maidens | mighty in wisdom,
Three from the dwelling | down 'neath the tree;
Urth is one named, | Verthandi the next,--
On the wood they scored,-- | and Skuld the third.
Laws they made there, and life allotted
To the sons of men, and set their fates.

So I'm making the same excuse about not having time to comment. Life is mad. I'm hoping to get time tonight, but we'll see :S

One question for now, who has v.20 got 6 lines? But I'm sure someone was going to answer that anyway!

Have a fantabulous day!

[hlewagastir]

And yes, Gandalf mean something akin to Powerful or Radiant, Spirit or Elf. Appropriate name for a wizard, wouldn't you say?

gandr usually means something akin to "magic staff" (also used for "magic" and "staff" separately)? Simek translates