Moral dilema :(

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Moral dilema

I think you've skipped out reading some of my posts. as has been said in abovre posts the main problem i was having was that i felt i was being disrepectful.

No, I read them. And noticed how many times you came back with "yeah but" to some very well thought out and reasonable posts.

Again, your concern (and application) seems very arbitrary to me.

After all, you said that you're a meat eater, so concern with wish invasive plants that you are removing makes very little sense.

and you spilt the post into three points in stead of the one point i originally made.

Do you really want to go there? Because I CAN explain in detail about my tracking issues and why I use the posting style that I do if you really want me to. Or you can just deal with the points made.

and the whole grey squirril example was just that and example.

And it was predicated on the idea that I have some emotional attachment to cute little squirrels. I'm not going to play that game.

I come from a family of hunters. Responsible people who took the preservation of the herds and the land that sustained them seriously. Getting caught up in "respect" issues didn't happen because it was counter productive. Rather peace was made with the necessary choices and life moved on.

And don't assume that there was no respect for the spirits involved.

you missed out what was in the brackets, yes scientifically its not an irrational thing, but it wasnt a logical problem i was having it was a moral one.

Why do you keep assuming that I missed things just because I don't agree with them? No, I didn't miss them. They are what I was asking you about, because I fail to see the problem. In fact I find your "morals" to be getting in the way of proper stewardship, which causes FAR more problems than pulling up an invasive species, IMNHO.

Feeling morality righteous is nice and all, but it's not always "right" "good" or remotely "productive". So I'm trying to get you to look at WHY it's a "moral" dilemma at all. What are you getting out of holding that particular moral POV?

and yes i was feeling bad about it, mainly because i was destroying life weather justified or not, and the reason i posted this thread was to find away to make myself feel better about it.

Better stop walking on the grass then. Actually better stop breathing.

If you're really going to use such a broad ideology, you're going to be feeling bad about pretty much everything. But that IS your choice.

my problem was that i didnt feel i was giving the respect to the plants that they deserved, which as said above, and offering to the species spirit will make me feel better.

Okay so you think you should be giving respect to an invasive species (you have a reason for that, right?) fine. So what are you going to do to GIVE that "respect"? Because unless you plan to STOP your conservation activities, you're going to have do something OTHER than taking a live-and-let-live approach.

You may want to live in a black and white world, but no one else is obligated to, nor is that how nature itself works.

[Kahlenda]

Re: Moral dilema

I actually had a longer post but, im just gunna say this. your last post read as if you felt like this was a personal attack against you. at no point was i trying to do so. you have your beliefs i have mine, i understand the side you are arguing, and my moral problems will not stop nor affect the work i do in consevation, i will take the time to deal with my moral problems afterwards.

so thank you for your input, but we'll just have to agree to disagree

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Moral dilema

I actually had a longer post but, im just gunna say this. your last post read as if you felt like this was a personal attack against you

You're projecting. I'm the one that has stayed on topic while you have behaved repeatedly as if you were recieving personal attacks when I was simply trying to engage you in discussion of the subject matter.

You made statements. I questioned them. You tried to use emotional rhetoric and I called you on it. That's life.

[Doc_Holliday]

Re: Moral dilema

I'd like to say this is like the 5th argument I've seen on threads involving Vigdisdotter and somebody else. This is weird.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Moral dilema

I'd like to say this is like the 5th argument I've seen on threads involving Vigdisdotter and somebody else. This is weird.

And this has what to do with the subject of the thread?

[anunitu]

Re: Moral dilema

I believe Doc might consider that this thread is a discussion and not a debate. As far as I can see it is a question and answer type thread,but not a Debate. Kahlenda has stated his feelings on a matter of his take about working in a nature setting, and not asked to be subjected to argument but to discuss his feeling on the matter.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Moral dilema

I believe Doc might consider that this thread is a discussion and not a debate. As far as I can see it is a question and answer type thread,but not a Debate.

Debate, as well as argument, is in the eye of the beholder.

I tried asking questions and making points so that the OP could think it through for themselves. That's how I operate. If someone doesn't like that, they can always choose not to read my posts.

In any event, how anyone views this thread still doesn't add to the subject matter.

[anunitu]

Re: Moral dilema

Indeed one could say I will not read what you have to say because it makes me uncomfortable. Perhaps Kahlenda did indeed feel uncomfortable with the feedback. He asked for advice on his moral feelings on a matter,not for solutions but understanding
of why the matter bothered him.

[Doc_Holliday]

Re: Moral dilema

And this has what to do with the subject of the thread?

Completely unrelated to the subject of the thread I'll admit. Just an observation I had from a viewpoint outside of these arguments, or debates, or discussions. Continue your debate, discussion or argument or whatever.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Moral dilema

Indeed one could say I will not read what you have to say because it makes me uncomfortable. Perhaps Kahlenda did indeed feel uncomfortable with the feedback. He asked for advice on his moral feelings on a matter,not for solutions but understanding
of why the matter bothered him.

And I questioned his statement because I'm not him. I don't live in his head and I have no idea why he feels the way he does. So I asked questions and made comments to get him to think and reflect and hopefully share so that I WOULD know.

People can take or leave my posts as suits them. It's no skin off my nose either way. Nor do I get worried about whether others see me as "understanding" or whatever else is PC at the given time.

And I'm still looking to see what any of this has to do with the subject matter.

So far I just see you, Doc and the OP resorting to talking about the poster rather than the post. If you really don't want to talk about the post, then why post at all?

[anunitu]

Re: Moral dilema

The thread is about the poster,the subject is secondary. Feelings matter and people matter as well.

[Doc_Holliday]

Re: Moral dilema

So far I just see you, Doc and the OP resorting to talking about the poster rather than the post. If you really don't want to talk about the post, then why post at all?

Your dashingly observant I can give you that. But I just like posting on these forums for enjoyment and the community and discussion and other reasons. So I just wanted to raise what was on my mind, that is all. Sorry I interrupted your flow here. I would like to say that I posted on this thread here three times so I shouldn't be all you see. I just kind of came in here late, you know.

[thalassa]

Re: Moral dilema

ok you have the degree in this so you probably know better than i do. buuut i think if i did go on a killing rampage a killed every grey squirril in the british isles instantly (or within a short period of time anyway) would that not be a big problem by removing a link from the chain in the eco system. red squirrils in britain now mainly live in special colonies so removing all the grey squirrels from the picture although allowing the reds to epand eventually wouldnt the lack of squirrils in general damage area's to begin with?

From an ecological standpoint (just because I find this to be an interesting thing) it depepends on the niche that the grey squirrel fills. Does the gray squirrel and the red squirrel fill the same ecological niche? While different species can have overlapping niches, only one species can successfully occupy a niche at a time...and the more successful animal is the one that "wins".

Ecosystems are not static, and are always changing in terms of balance. A loss of all the squirrels at once will result in more of those organisms that have overlapping niches--it might be birds or other squirrel like animals that increase for a time, until the red squirrel might move in and expand its range to those (now) unoccupied niches. Or...is the gray squirrel more successful because there is something else going on in the environment that keeps the red squirrel from being as successful (and therefore competitive)? Squirrels do quite a bit in the environment, but much of what they do isn't going to be horribly impacted by a season or two (since they also reproduce rapidly) of lower numbers. Obviously, were someone to go and cull all the gray squirrels, it would have to be a bit more planned than a killing rampage--populations of red squirrels would need to be boosted by captive breeding, etc and the reds would have to be brought into those areas artifically.

Its also possible that it might never come back--and that is actually okay too...E. O. Wilson did some landbreaking experiments in the FL keys back in the 60s or 70s where they fumigated entire (tiny) islands to see how recolonization would play out, and they were truly revolutionary in our understanding of extinction events...it was brilliant science, and pretty destructive, but necessary for a better understanding of how ecosystems are built. I'm just saying, it could be done, and personally, I wouldn't feel morally incorrect for doing it myself...and I apologize if this is getting overbearing or harping on the point...I don't mean to, I just find it interesting to talk about!!

As for your real issue here...the feeling of guilt. Guilt is personal. What makes one of us have that feeling (or not) and how to absolve ourselves of that feeling is also personal. I don't think that anyone has the right to tell you what you should or should not feel bad about (or to make you feel bad for feeling bad about it)! I think there have been some excellent suggestions on getting rid of that feeling... On a more practical note (I don't have the time to go back and reread), are they at least doing something with what is being pulled out? Sometimes you actually can't compost some invasive plants, because the composting process actually won't keep it from propagating (either from seeds or roots) and will actually help the plant spread...but, if they can, they'll hopefully be composing or finding another way of using it.

[Doc_Holliday]

Re: Moral dilema

I'll just give my view point in a nutshell here.

At the end of the day we are all animals, so when you were cutting that path through the brush and woods, you were doing what a lot of animals do more or less every day. A lot of deer trample down large amounts of plants to make sleeping grounds or trails through the brush. And those invasive plants are completely throwing off the natural way of things anyways. As far as I'm concerned, you were doing nothing wrong.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Moral dilema

The thread is about the poster,the subject is secondary. Feelings matter and people matter as well.

I disagree. I was not and will not speak to a person's character (about the poster) because that's counter productive and places the focus squarely AWAY from the subject matter.

And while feelings do matter, it's within reason and context. Sorry if you don't like it, but this cyber, and I'm not going to get emotionally invested in it. If someone gets worked up, that's their thing to deal with, not mine. If they'd rather feel hard done by rather than looking at the comments made constructively, it's their life. I find it a ridiculous reaction to be honest, but that's neither here nor there.

However, since you are bound and determined to derail the thread, knock yourselves out. I'll be around when someone wants to get back to the subject.

- - - Updated - - -

I would like to say that I posted on this thread here three times so I shouldn't be all you see.

Huh? I didn't say you were.