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    #16
    Re: dumb newb question: Working with Deities

    Originally posted by Malflick View Post
    Thank you for all the replies everyone! Keep on posting, just wanted to pop in and note I'm still reading.

    ...Excuse me?
    No offense intended. But consider that the Christian god offers punishment and damnation in a firery Hell if you don't get saved and accept his son as your savior. Creates someone whose sole purpose is to test and try to lure you away from this God who sends destruction down upon the world with the only promise he'll not destroy it by flood again. Then offers you a better life once you die than can be offered to you while your alive but provides someone who will listen to your sins (granted church specific) and forgive you of them so you don;'t have to take responsibility for your own actions. If that's not fear driven then I really do not know what is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
    I'm an obvious exception to your generalisation, MonSno lol

    ;.. On the other hand, I use the term 'work with' when talking about deities whom I have a transitory, temporary arrangement with. Honor is always a part of it, as well as the knowledge that they are more 'powerful' than I am. But these relationships are more like a business arrangement... they help me and I give them something in return. The 'payment' varies, depending on who I'm working with. But it's give and take. The deities I work with most in this sense are Demons, or others that Skuld has sent me to, such as Ereshkigal or Blodugadha. Some I have a semi-regular relationship with... Barbatos, for example. With Him the relationship is more intimate, less formal, but I still consider it a 'with' sort of thing. I'm under no illusions about these deities either, though. Perhaps because I tend to work with cthonic, Underworld and demonized deities I never fall under the curse of assuming that these deities are benevolent, loving entities who exist to help me out (and honestly I think that people who believe that are getting the Divine Answering Machine). They help me because I pay them, and because I treat them with respect, understanding and honor. In these situations I'm not working 'for' these deities... if anything they are technically working for me, but I'd never use that terminology. They are deigning to help me out in return for something on my part. Some are more personal than others. Some are very formal. Some have to be approached a certain way because they will take advantage of you if you aren't careful (centuries of being mistreated by ceremonial magicians has made some Demons a bit... reluctant to trust people)
    .

    Now Demons and Daemons are something different. In that capacity I would say I do work with certain of those though it's an approach with caution working relationship. I know Hecate / Hekate will send daemons to either inspire or punish her followers. Yet that punishment is not so broad minded as much of it is derived against the right way to practice and the notion of hubris and such. I suppose one might place vanity beneath that umbrella of hubris when you consider both Hecate / Hekate and Artemis have punished vanity by either death or transformation into a lessor being for their transgressions.

    I will admit I am often subjective when it comes to the term Demon and Ceremonial Magics for many times it implies the Christianized notion, well at least Solominized Goetia notion of them, and what a demon is and how we expect them to operate upon the material plain of earth. Especially painted against the back drop of agents of Satan or other Princes of Hell. Especially demons that are derived from many of the Eastern Med basin archaic gods / goddesses who were demonized by the early church though that is not so much done against more Nordic / Teutonic gods / goddesses.

    I also use the term 'work with' when talking about other entities... animal guides, land spirits, that sort of thing. The relationships there are different again, but that's outside the scope of this thread lol.
    I'd also use the term work with when it pertains to guides , totems, land spirits, etc as that I agree is a very different type of relationship than a divine one. Not to say as demi beings they are not divine in that sense.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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      #17
      Re: dumb newb question: Working with Deities

      I work with my Gods as an equal. Of course, in terms of power, we are different. But they help me to grow, and I thank them. I do not worship them. Sometimes I speak to them casually. We all have the potential inside us to become Gods. The only human thing about us is our body, our soul is within the ranks of higher powers. Crippled by the limitations of the human body, I have to gather strength and wisdom in order to reverse these effects and make my soul attain it's former power.

      Check out my blog! The Daily Satanist

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        #18
        Re: dumb newb question: Working with Deities

        Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
        Now Demons and Daemons are something different. In that capacity I would say I do work with certain of those though it's an approach with caution working relationship. I know Hecate / Hekate will send daemons to either inspire or punish her followers. Yet that punishment is not so broad minded as much of it is derived against the right way to practice and the notion of hubris and such. I suppose one might place vanity beneath that umbrella of hubris when you consider both Hecate / Hekate and Artemis have punished vanity by either death or transformation into a lessor being for their transgressions.
        The Greek daemon/daimon is different to what we work with in Demonolatry. The Greek entities are of a similar class to certain other entities within Demonolatry, but they are not what I mean when I talk about Demons.

        Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
        I will admit I am often subjective when it comes to the term Demon and Ceremonial Magics for many times it implies the Christianized notion, well at least Solominized Goetia notion of them, and what a demon is and how we expect them to operate upon the material plain of earth. Especially painted against the back drop of agents of Satan or other Princes of Hell. Especially demons that are derived from many of the Eastern Med basin archaic gods / goddesses who were demonized by the early church though that is not so much done against more Nordic / Teutonic gods / goddesses.
        Ironically enough, this is actually what Demonolators are talking about when we say 'Demon'. We're talking about the Goetia (Barbatos is a Goetic Demon), the other Demonic hierarchies (known from ancient grimoires and texts), demonised chtonic and Underworld deities, certain Khemetic deities, certain Babylonian, Akkadian, Sumerian etc deities, many Caananite deities, and others. Pretty much all of the pre-monotheisitc Semitic and Near-Middle Eastern deities are included in the Demonic pantheons, as are most of the 'Fallen Angels' of Biblical fame.

        The problem with using Biblical and Ceremonial sources for these deities is that while they do provide some information and insight, those sources are obviously biased. If you dig deep enough, you uncover a rich and complex mythology outside of this bias. There are also generations of magicians who worked with these entities very differently to the Christian mystics and ceremonial magicians. Demonolatry has a community of generational practitioners who claim ancient family grimoires as sources. Demonolators do NOT work with Demons using the techniques laid out in texts like the Key of Solomon. You could consider it two diverging paths... the Christian mystics and magicians went the way of 'these beings are evil lesser creatures and must be enslaved and ensared' whereas the founders of Demonolatry went the way of 'I recognise these beings as demoted and denigrated older deities who are deserving of respect and reverence'.

        I'd be heading off track from the thread if I get into it much further, but I just wanted to clear that up lol

        - - - Updated - - -

        Originally posted by SeanRave View Post
        I work with my Gods as an equal. Of course, in terms of power, we are different. But they help me to grow, and I thank them. I do not worship them. Sometimes I speak to them casually. We all have the potential inside us to become Gods. The only human thing about us is our body, our soul is within the ranks of higher powers. Crippled by the limitations of the human body, I have to gather strength and wisdom in order to reverse these effects and make my soul attain it's former power.
        I know this is slightly off topic but can I ask which deities you work with? Just out of interest as a Demonolator who is married to a Theistic Satanist lol. I'm used to us being the only ones in the pagan forum communities I've come from so it's nice to see others.

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          #19
          Re: dumb newb question: Working with Deities

          Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
          The Greek daemon/daimon is different to what we work with in Demonolatry. The Greek entities are of a similar class to certain other entities within Demonolatry, but they are not what I mean when I talk about Demons.
          I agree that's why I especially try to use the daemon / daimon spelling and reference the Hellenic influence though a Roman influence is also present to a degree.

          Ironically enough, this is actually what Demonolators are talking about when we say 'Demon'. We're talking about the Goetia (Barbatos is a Goetic Demon), the other Demonic hierarchies (known from ancient grimoires and texts), demonised chtonic and Underworld deities, certain Khemetic deities, certain Babylonian, Akkadian, Sumerian etc deities, many Caananite deities, and others. Pretty much all of the pre-monotheisitc Semitic and Near-Middle Eastern deities are included in the Demonic pantheons, as are most of the 'Fallen Angels' of Biblical fame.

          The problem with using Biblical and Ceremonial sources for these deities is that while they do provide some information and insight, those sources are obviously biased. If you dig deep enough, you uncover a rich and complex mythology outside of this bias. There are also generations of magicians who worked with these entities very differently to the Christian mystics and ceremonial magicians. Demonolatry has a community of generational practitioners who claim ancient family grimoires as sources. Demonolators do NOT work with Demons using the techniques laid out in texts like the Key of Solomon. You could consider it two diverging paths... the Christian mystics and magicians went the way of 'these beings are evil lesser creatures and must be enslaved and ensared' whereas the founders of Demonolatry went the way of 'I recognise these beings as demoted and denigrated older deities who are deserving of respect and reverence'.
          This is the general position I take or assume when I hear people speak of Demons, Demonolotry, etc. If they say Ceremonial Magician or Solomonic I think of the Christianized version of demonology. It does get difficult at times trying to decide which side of the fence they come down on as to having to bind them and sigils or simply working with them. Especially when the person seems to indicate they fall into both camps at the same time.

          Gets interesting at times when one groups claims it's a LHP while the other claims it to be a RHP given their perspectives.

          Not sure i'd say it's going way off topic though as some still claim them to be an archaic divinity and god / goddess form they call upon. Lilith seems to fall into both camps in that regards.
          I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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            #20
            Re: dumb newb question: Working with Deities

            Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
            I know this is slightly off topic but can I ask which deities you work with? Just out of interest as a Demonolator who is married to a Theistic Satanist lol. I'm used to us being the only ones in the pagan forum communities I've come from so it's nice to see others.
            The most often with Raum. He's friendly and is almost always agreeing to help. Orobas and Haures when it comes to protect myself or others. I've been recently planning to work with Barbatos. I've read he can help with hurt feelings. I always seek Astaroth when I need wisdom and knowledge in a certain matter, but she tends to answer in mysterious ways.

            Check out my blog! The Daily Satanist

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              #21
              Re: dumb newb question: Working with Deities

              Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
              No offense intended. But consider that the Christian god offers punishment and damnation in a firery Hell if you don't get saved and accept his son as your savior. Creates someone whose sole purpose is to test and try to lure you away from this God who sends destruction down upon the world with the only promise he'll not destroy it by flood again. Then offers you a better life once you die than can be offered to you while your alive but provides someone who will listen to your sins (granted church specific) and forgive you of them so you don;'t have to take responsibility for your own actions. If that's not fear driven then I really do not know what is.
              ...This is so full of stereotypes, generalizations, misunderstandings, and putting all Christians into a narrow box of what your mental strawman of Christianity is that I am not entirely sure how to respond to that.

              ...You seem to think the "Christian God" is with completely certainty something I would never worship, or even consider worshiping, and that I have never thought about my faith before... Christianity isn't one religion. And just because there are Christians whose beliefs you find unsavorable, doesn't mean that all Christians are that way. If you want to proselytize to me about how evil my religion is, I'd be happy to talk to you in PM's or a different thread.

              Originally posted by SeanRave View Post
              I work with my Gods as an equal. Of course, in terms of power, we are different. But they help me to grow, and I thank them. I do not worship them. Sometimes I speak to them casually. We all have the potential inside us to become Gods. The only human thing about us is our body, our soul is within the ranks of higher powers. Crippled by the limitations of the human body, I have to gather strength and wisdom in order to reverse these effects and make my soul attain it's former power.
              How do you think people can become Gods? Are Gods in your belief system all former people? You also said former power... So were people Gods and lost that power? Might be massively misunderstanding you here, so sorry if I am. I'm very curious what you mean however .
              hey look, I have a book! And look I have a second one too!

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                #22
                Re: dumb newb question: Working with Deities

                Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                No offense intended. But consider that the Christian god offers punishment and damnation in a firery Hell if you don't get saved and accept his son as your savior. Creates someone whose sole purpose is to test and try to lure you away from this God who sends destruction down upon the world with the only promise he'll not destroy it by flood again. Then offers you a better life once you die than can be offered to you while your alive but provides someone who will listen to your sins (granted church specific) and forgive you of them so you don;'t have to take responsibility for your own actions. If that's not fear driven then I really do not know what is.
                'Erm. Not in the type of Christianity I was brought up in. In a good number of Christianities, yes...but considering there are 38,000 denominations, its pretty hard to make blanket statements about what the Christian god is or is not (particularly since that also has changed over time as well).


                Anyhoo...back to the OP.

                Originally posted by Malflick View Post
                Okay, learning time for Malflick once again.

                I've had this explained before, but I didn't quite get it at the time, and I've quite forgotten the explanation honestly, so what is the significance of the term "working with deities"?

                Obviously I'm coming from a very different worldview, and it just strikes me as signifying a very different world view and way of dealing with God(ess)(es). So question for everybody: why do you say you work with deities as opposed to another term?
                I don't really use this term. Often, people that *do* use it have a problem with the idea of "worship" because they view worship as (to quote one poster, because its a pretty common opinion) "for myself personally, it implies prostration and grovelling before a "superior being.""

                Personally,
                I see no reason to punish a perfectly decent word because think another group has co-opted it into meaning something else. I worship...even when I'm "working with" Deity, its still done in a context that fits the definition of worship...because otherwise, there would be no point


                worship (n.)
                worth) + -scipe (see -ship). Sense of "reverence paid to a supernatural or divine being" is first recorded c.1300. The original sense is preserved in the title worshipful (c.1300).

                ~from the Online Etymology Dictionary
                or
                worship
                noun1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage,or to any object regarded as sacred.
                2. formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage:They attended worship this morning.
                3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of businesssuccess.
                4. the object of adoring reverence or regard.

                ~from dictionary.com

                So...worship=an expression of reverence towards something of great worth, honor, or renown...yeah, I'm down with that. I don't think that an "outward manifestation" of "deep respect tinged with awe" (from dictionary.com's definition of reverence) towards something that is larger than myself is somehow debasing. So, unless I am actually "working with" a deity (pretty much an impossibility since I don't believe they are actual independently acting entities), I think that worship works just fine.
                Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                  #23
                  Re: dumb newb question: Working with Deities

                  Originally posted by Malflick View Post
                  How do you think people can become Gods? Are Gods in your belief system all former people? You also said former power... So were people Gods and lost that power? Might be massively misunderstanding you here, so sorry if I am. I'm very curious what you mean however .
                  People can become Gods through the Magnum Opus, also known as the Great Work in Alchemy. This process supposedly brings upon the practitioner physical and spiritual divinity. The exact formula is a mystery still. The final stages are death and resurrection, and with many people failing that last step, let's say there are few who want to keep trying. That way requires a single lifetime, and since the exact formula is still unknown, not many go that way. The other solution requires several lifetimes. We believe that once we die, we are given the choice to reincarnate in someone else, let our soul disperse into the world, or stay a spirit in the astral realm. The choice of reincarnation allows us to go back to life with a soul as powerful as we used to in our previous life. Therefore, we can continue strengthening it through meditation, working with Gods, etc... It's a longer process that takes several lifetimes, and it only brings spiritual divinity, not physical one.

                  Quite few of my Gods say they have distant human memories. This would indicate that they either had a physical form, or that they were humans.

                  Yes, I believe that in ancient times, people with psychical powers were more common, and it was something trainable. I believe that over the course of time, we have become more and more spiritually weak. I don't think we were once Gods, just more spiritually powerful.

                  Check out my blog! The Daily Satanist

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                    #24
                    Re: dumb newb question: Working with Deities

                    To me, anything one does with the gods that's not a form of reverence is "working with" the gods.

                    There are as many ways to work with deity as there are people. Some are on an even playing field (as it were) and some are with the human subservient to the deity. To me "working with" is about who has power, it just denotes that this is an activity that is something other then vernation.
                    "The doer alone learneth." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

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                      #25
                      Re: dumb newb question: Working with Deities

                      Originally posted by Vigdisdotter View Post
                      To me, anything one does with the gods that's not a form of reverence is "working with" the gods.

                      There are as many ways to work with deity as there are people. Some are on an even playing field (as it were) and some are with the human subservient to the deity. To me "working with" is about who has power, it just denotes that this is an activity that is something other then vernation.
                      I like this interpretation.
                      Blog: http://thestarsafire.tumblr.com

                      Kuchi wa wazawai no moto (the mouth is the origin of disasters)

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                        #26
                        Re: dumb newb question: Working with Deities

                        Originally posted by Satu View Post
                        I like this interpretation.
                        Awesome and I'm glad you were able to read past the typo ^_^;; it should have read "isn't about who has power"
                        "The doer alone learneth." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

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                          #27
                          Re: dumb newb question: Working with Deities

                          Originally posted by Vigdisdotter View Post
                          To me, anything one does with the gods that's not a form of reverence is "working with" the gods.
                          That is, basically, my take on the matter as well... As a few people earlier in the thread said, I both worship and work with my deities. Which term I use at a particular time just depends on what I'm specifically doing. For me, it's not about trying to put myself on the same level as deities, or whatever else... it's simply a way for me to differentiate between rituals/what have you that are more worship focused, and those that are more 'work' focused.
                          Hearth and Hedge

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                            #28
                            Re: dumb newb question: Working with Deities

                            Originally posted by Malflick View Post
                            .....You seem to think the "Christian God" is with completely certainty something I would never worship, or even consider worshiping, and that I have never thought about my faith before... Christianity isn't one religion. And just because there are Christians whose beliefs you find unsavorable, doesn't mean that all Christians are that way. If you want to proselytize to me about how evil my religion is, I'd be happy to talk to you in PM's or a different thread. ..
                            Truthfully I do not care what you think of your religion as it is yours not mine. As far as proselytizing I've not tried to convert you to anything so no I have not been proselytizing to you. You may not like it but what I cited are the basic tenants of that religion. HOw you may change them to suit your own beliefs does not change they are part and parcel to the bible regardless of which bible one uses.

                            - - - Updated - - -

                            Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                            'Erm. Not in the type of Christianity I was brought up in. In a good number of Christianities, yes...but considering there are 38,000 denominations, its pretty hard to make blanket statements about what the Christian god is or is not (particularly since that also has changed over time as well). ..
                            Show me a bible that does not state what I used as core tenants and I'll consider things. Show me a bible that says you can be saved without accepting Jesus. Show me one that says you are not condemned to Hell for not being saved. Show me one that does not use or identify Satan (Devil) as the evil that tests and corrupts the faithful away from salvation. All conveying the way to work with God and Jesus for salvation and eternal life after death.

                            Interesting how one can challenge pagan practices but still seems forboden to speak on Christianity and its method of working with and the requirements for salvation under its dogma.
                            I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                              #29
                              Re: dumb newb question: Working with Deities

                              Originally posted by monsno_leedra
                              Show me a bible that does not state what I used as core tenants and I'll consider things. Show me a bible that says you can be saved without accepting Jesus. Show me one that says you are not condemned to Hell for not being saved. Show me one that does not use or identify Satan (Devil) as the evil that tests and corrupts the faithful away from salvation. All conveying the way to work with God and Jesus for salvation and eternal life after death.
                              Y'know, Monsno, I think that some of the core tenants of the Bible are objectionable. I think that some forms of Christian soteriology are highly objectionable. But I also think Christianity has grown to the point where it's more than "just" about the Bible. I mean, Christians have more than just the Bible to turn to for wisdom and guidance.

                              Also, accepting Jesus is part of the package deal for Christians, just as living in maat is part of the package deal for Kemetics. Don't live in maat? Have fun being Ammut food. And yet you're not tweaked about this. Hinduism would send you into paroxysms.

                              Religions sometimes have requirements. Actually, most of them have requirements.

                              There are many other interpretations of God, and they don't have to fit the Bible. The God my grandmother knows, for example, is a loving God who watches over His "children". She believes that everyone will be saved and that, even if you don't care about God, He cares about you. Satan is, yes, here to test us, but the pagan gods do that to us sometimes. Bast has tested me. I'm pretty sure Anpu has tested me once or twice. Set pushes my buttons ALL THE EFFING TIME. There may or may not be consequences to failure, and certainly they won't be anything to do with salvation, but I see nothing wrong with there being an Opponent who tries to put people's feet off the path of whatever they define as "righteousness".

                              I've also met Christians who are of the Westboro stripe or the loathsome spiders and fires type.

                              All of these interpretations are legitimate (I just wish people would stop pushing their interpretations on everyone else). People can deviate from what the Bible says if they feel called to do it and feel God is okay with it. We don't always question pagans who deviate despite what the sources say (except in cases of holy-crap-are-you-insane-or-just-stupid), so why can't Christians do the same? Religions morph and change and some denominations of Christianity have "outgrown"--for lack of a better term--some parts of the Bible. Maybe that means they won't be saved according to their religion's soteriology, but that's between them and God, eh?

                              You can argue that Christians worship a different God depending on the denomination. I can't decide either way and, frankly, I don't care about God enough to do the study and reflection required to make an informed decision.

                              Interesting how one can challenge pagan practices but still seems forboden to speak on Christianity and its method of working with and the requirements for salvation under its dogma.
                              I don't know about you, but my practices are challenged all the time by people from all walks of life. . . and sometimes my gods, too. Most of the time, my feet have been held to the fire by other pagans, though.

                              ---------

                              Back on topic. . .

                              Originally posted by Gardenia
                              That is, basically, my take on the matter as well... As a few people earlier in the thread said, I both worship and work with my deities. Which term I use at a particular time just depends on what I'm specifically doing. For me, it's not about trying to put myself on the same level as deities, or whatever else... it's simply a way for me to differentiate between rituals/what have you that are more worship focused, and those that are more 'work' focused.
                              I sometimes find myself distinguishing between worship and work in the intent. Work is something for me or for the Netjeru and me. Worship is pretty much intended for the praise, veneration, glorification, etc of the deity in question. But sometimes dividing "the Work" from worship kind of misses the point, because it's all interconnected. I still divide them up.
                              Blog: http://thestarsafire.tumblr.com

                              Kuchi wa wazawai no moto (the mouth is the origin of disasters)

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                                #30
                                Re: dumb newb question: Working with Deities

                                Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                                Truthfully I do not care what you think of your religion as it is yours not mine. As far as proselytizing I've not tried to convert you to anything so no I have not been proselytizing to you. You may not like it but what I cited are the basic tenants of that religion. HOw you may change them to suit your own beliefs does not change they are part and parcel to the bible regardless of which bible one uses.

                                - - - Updated - - -



                                Show me a bible that does not state what I used as core tenants and I'll consider things. Show me a bible that says you can be saved without accepting Jesus. Show me one that says you are not condemned to Hell for not being saved. Show me one that does not use or identify Satan (Devil) as the evil that tests and corrupts the faithful away from salvation. All conveying the way to work with God and Jesus for salvation and eternal life after death.

                                Interesting how one can challenge pagan practices but still seems forboden to speak on Christianity and its method of working with and the requirements for salvation under its dogma.
                                This is getting massively off topic. Massively.

                                You clearly care quite a bit about what I think about it, as you keep trying to convince me I am wrong about my own religion and beliefs. I don't like it, because what you're saying is in face not true. What you have said are not basic tenants of my religion, and yet... You keep saying they are. You're acting like your personal interpretation of the Bible is infallible, and the only one.

                                Its not.

                                I can in fact show you a Bible that doesn't have those things, its by my bedside. I seem to remember plenty in it that contradicts what you say. I seem to remember a Jesus who was accepting of everyone, whose way to salvation came from giving what you had to the needy, helping others, feeding the hungry, and whose ultimate command was to love your neighbor... In fact I seem to be looking at that in the Bible right in front of me!

                                Also, you seem to be confused, thinking that the flood story is in fact literally true, and ignoring the Enochian background of it about why God destroyed the Earth in the story. Actually, you're taking the Bible extremely literally, which is dangerous, and leads to the kind of Christianity you think all of Christians practice. I can be Christian, and eat shrimp, and think gays are worthy of salvation, and think non-Christians are worthy of salvation... And still be Christian. Easily. And still be true to the Bible in doing so.

                                Your views on hell seem to be more out of Dante then the Bible. Also, all the Christian denominations (and there are MANY, such as Seventh Day Adventists) who don't believe in hell, are also still Christians. And they have Biblical arguments for why they don't think hell is a real place!

                                You know that there are Christian denominations who believe that Satan doesn't exist as a being, but rather a concept? And ones that are dualists that think Satan is another deity? And ones who think Satan tests humanity not for the purposes of damning us at all? And all of them have Biblical arguments for their positions! Not every Christian denomination is fundamentalist. Not all Christians believe in the divinity of Christ. We do all seem to think Jesus had the right idea about how to live your life though...

                                And yes, that will bring about "the Kingdom of Heaven" but is that in the sky or on Earth? LARGE numbers of Christians believe it has nothing to do with a literal after life, and that the Kingdom of heaven will be on Earth when people stop treating each other like jerks. And yet again, all of them have Biblical arguments for their position. Yours isn't the only one. You don't get to decide what Christianity is.

                                I'm not challenging Pagan practices at all. I kind of hang out here? I actually think this is a place full of good people worthy of love (not to mention my God's love) and I have no interest in changing what they think because they are living good lives and that's what matters and I don't think I know the right path to goodness for everyone, and that clearly there is more than one way and my God doesn't care as long as you're doing well? (ie: Good Samaritan story).
                                You're not forbidden to speak about Christianity, but that doesn't mean I have to sit around and listen to you distort my religion to fit what you want it to be without presenting contrary evidence. The fact that I'm not letting you walk over me doesn't mean that your ability to state your opinions is being threatened.

                                Seriously, if you want to debate me about this, go start another thread. I'm here to learn about Paganism, and I've grown to respect the differing ways you guys live your lives immensely. I don't want to just argue about whether or not my religion is based on fear and a destructive hateful damning God, because its not. If you have a problem with that, start a new thread, or PM me, and you can tell me all about how the religion I study and practice isn't actually what I study or practice, and instruct me in what the basic tenants of my religion apparently are.

                                This isn't the place for it.

                                Can we just get back on topic already?

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                                Originally posted by Vigdisdotter View Post
                                To me, anything one does with the gods that's not a form of reverence is "working with" the gods.

                                There are as many ways to work with deity as there are people. Some are on an even playing field (as it were) and some are with the human subservient to the deity. To me "working with" is about who has power, it just denotes that this is an activity that is something other then vernation.
                                This is a very succinct way of summing up the answer to my question! Thank you! That makes a lot of sense.

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                                Originally posted by SeanRave View Post
                                People can become Gods through the Magnum Opus, also known as the Great Work in Alchemy. This process supposedly brings upon the practitioner physical and spiritual divinity. The exact formula is a mystery still. The final stages are death and resurrection, and with many people failing that last step, let's say there are few who want to keep trying. That way requires a single lifetime, and since the exact formula is still unknown, not many go that way. The other solution requires several lifetimes. We believe that once we die, we are given the choice to reincarnate in someone else, let our soul disperse into the world, or stay a spirit in the astral realm. The choice of reincarnation allows us to go back to life with a soul as powerful as we used to in our previous life. Therefore, we can continue strengthening it through meditation, working with Gods, etc... It's a longer process that takes several lifetimes, and it only brings spiritual divinity, not physical one.

                                Quite few of my Gods say they have distant human memories. This would indicate that they either had a physical form, or that they were humans.

                                Yes, I believe that in ancient times, people with psychical powers were more common, and it was something trainable. I believe that over the course of time, we have become more and more spiritually weak. I don't think we were once Gods, just more spiritually powerful.
                                I see. I'd like to hear more about this sometime, its pretty fascinating SeanRave!
                                What do you think has made us more spiritually weak? (If you have an opinion on that)

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                                Originally posted by Satu View Post
                                I sometimes find myself distinguishing between worship and work in the intent. Work is something for me or for the Netjeru and me. Worship is pretty much intended for the praise, veneration, glorification, etc of the deity in question. But sometimes dividing "the Work" from worship kind of misses the point, because it's all interconnected. I still divide them up.
                                Intent sounds like a pretty clear and good way of breaking up the two definitions.
                                hey look, I have a book! And look I have a second one too!

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