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    #31
    Re: dumb newb question: Working with Deities

    To be frank, Malflick, I tend to think that "working with deities" is simply a cliche. At least in terms of, say, not working against one's deities.

    It's an oversimplification. And one that I most often use just as [a reference to] a kindly relationship. That is, I don't much take it literally... which is a problem I have with certain other misconceptions that people perpetuate. You know, like accuracy is too much of a strain on one's ego, or something equally unsuited to reality.

    If we ALL saw every metaphor and analogy as absolute fact... not just a rare few, I think communication and such discussions would deteriorate to the point of meaningless mumbling.




    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

    "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius

    "The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice." - Mark Twain

    "The only gossip I'm interested in is things from the Weekly World News - 'Woman's bra bursts, 11 injured'. That kind of thing." - Johnny Depp


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      #32
      Re: dumb newb question: Working with Deities

      Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
      No offense intended. But consider that the Christian god offers punishment and damnation in a firery Hell if you don't get saved and accept his son as your savior. Creates someone whose sole purpose is to test and try to lure you away from this God who sends destruction down upon the world with the only promise he'll not destroy it by flood again. Then offers you a better life once you die than can be offered to you while your alive but provides someone who will listen to your sins (granted church specific) and forgive you of them so you don;'t have to take responsibility for your own actions. If that's not fear driven then I really do not know what is.
      I consider Christianity and Catholicism to be separate; and modern Judeo-Christian faiths to be a little ways removed from the historical faiths. Things have changed over the centuries and modern Christianity is still evolving, at least here in Australia. Generalisations about Christianity and YHVH like this and ones you made in your last few posts just aren't accurate anymore. You could perhaps apply them to some branches of Catholicism, but not to Christianity or to Judeo-Christian faiths as a group.

      I don't necessarily agree with the attitude that many modern Christians have in regards to their historical roots or to the other Judeo-Christian faiths, but that's just the way that it is. The Christian God is no longer about fire and brimstone; and Christians don't practice confession the way that Catholicism still does. I was bought up Catholic... my opinion of YHVH is a little different to people who where bought up Christian. We were taught things that I've had Christians scoff at or get defensive and refute. It's... different.

      Edited to add:

      Regarding the later posts about the Bible (I've not read the others' replies yet though) I just wanted to point out the modern Christians don't necessarily follow the Old Testament the way that Catholicism still does. I know Christians who think that the Old Testament is outdated and rubbish. I personally don't agree with some of the cherry picking that I've seen some denomination do, but the point is that Bible is not quite 'The Be All and End All' that it once was.


      Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
      I agree that's why I especially try to use the daemon / daimon spelling and reference the Hellenic influence though a Roman influence is also present to a degree.



      This is the general position I take or assume when I hear people speak of Demons, Demonolotry, etc. If they say Ceremonial Magician or Solomonic I think of the Christianized version of demonology. It does get difficult at times trying to decide which side of the fence they come down on as to having to bind them and sigils or simply working with them. Especially when the person seems to indicate they fall into both camps at the same time.

      Gets interesting at times when one groups claims it's a LHP while the other claims it to be a RHP given their perspectives.

      Not sure i'd say it's going way off topic though as some still claim them to be an archaic divinity and god / goddess form they call upon. Lilith seems to fall into both camps in that regards.
      Ah okay, from your other post it sounded like you thought I was talking about Greek daimons lol

      Generally, if someone says 'Demonolatry' or works with Demons as part of a Theistic Satanist or Luciferian faith you can assume that they are doing it the respectful way.

      Modern ceremonial magicians who approach Demons with the old school Key of Solomon type attitudes don't use the term Demonolatry and aren't accepted by the community. There are still ceremonial magicians who 'work with' Demons this way, though honestly, not many modern magicians are skilled enough to pull off the bindings without Divine backlash, even with the 'cosmic grooves' provided by the ancient texts. Ceremonial magick isn't really what it was hundreds of years ago and I'm not convinced that YHVH provides the support that he once did, primarily because ceremonial magick isn't a Christian thing like it used to be. And Christianity itself has divorced the whole concept of historical Christian magicians and tries to pretend that they never existed or that it was a Catholic thing, though it's still there if you dig into it through other Judeo-Christian faiths.

      LHP vs RHP... the generational Demonolatry community claims that they are a RHP, but I suspect that is because they are trying to separate themselves from the Theistic Satanist community. Demonolatry is a divided community... there are the generational purists who are very uptight about being a separate faith and not having anything to do with Satanist groups or paganism or witchcraft or ceremonial magick (even though many of them worship Satan as 'The All' and use ceremonial practices). Then there are the rest of us, who are a bit more relaxed about that. Personally, I don't think that Demonolatry itself is inherently either... I think it's the individual practitioners that decide whether they practice from a LHP, RHP, middle or mixed path perspective.

      Originally posted by SeanRave View Post
      The most often with Raum. He's friendly and is almost always agreeing to help. Orobas and Haures when it comes to protect myself or others. I've been recently planning to work with Barbatos. I've read he can help with hurt feelings. I always seek Astaroth when I need wisdom and knowledge in a certain matter, but she tends to answer in mysterious ways.
      I also work with Goetic Demons, though only a few on a regular basis.

      I work with Barbatos regularly, in relation to my work with animals. It's interesting that you mention hurt feelings... it's not in the literature about Him (it wouldn't be though... the ceremonial magicians were interested in His knack for languages, not His relationship with emotions) but it does match my experiences with Him. Barbatos helps me with the care and protection of post-rehabilitation birds I've released, among other things. I always end up crying when I work with Him... He appreciates the emotion and connection that I have with my charges and patients. He likes deep, heart felt concern and sadness. He likes the passion that I have for them. Tears are what He takes as payment, and He turns then from grief to reassurance. I wonder if this translates into what you've heard about hurt feelings. Obviously our relationship is based around my work with animals, so that is the context with which we connect, but that's not to say that He would not work with emotion in another context.
      Last edited by Rae'ya; 21 Aug 2013, 22:29.

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        #33
        Re: dumb newb question: Working with Deities

        For me, "Working with" means that it's not a contract or dedication towards something/someone. I can work with herbs, for example, without always using it in my practice. I can work with deities like Isis, Persephone, Apollo, and Ares off and on. Still, I give them offerings, but it's not an obligatory relationship. I can work with them off and on, whereas with a deity I 'worship', it's a forever relationship. I dedicated myself to them, and so I am obligated to keep the "contract" or "promise" of sorts. I worship archangels, so the relationship is a forever promise of affection, reverence, and lots of treats between both parties!


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          #34
          "Work with"?

          This may be a no-brainer (my brain is kind of Swiss cheese right now due to some personal issues), but what does the term "work with" mean when referring to deities? Is it simply whom one worships and the way one worships the deity(ies)? I give praises and thanks to the Aesir, Vanir, and spirits, but I talk almost exclusively to Thor; he is central in my offerings. That is, I toast to him first, then the All-Father, the Aesir and Vanir, and the spirits. I have images of some Hindu, Buddhist and Taoist deities around the house; while I believe in these deities and like what they represent, I don't pray to them or make offerings (there are people who do, so I feel covered ). Is it that simple, or is there a little more to the meaning of the term?
          śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
          śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

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            #35
            Re: "Work with"?

            I think, when someone says they work with a diety, they generally mean they feel they have a reciprocal relationship. As in they pray to, worship, honor this deity and that deity therefore effects the things in their lives, teaches them, sends them dreams, visions, etc. That it's a give and take relationship instead of just and I give and you ignore or don't notice relationship.
            We are what we are. Nothing more, nothing less. There is good and evil among every kind of people. It's the evil among us who rule now. -Anne Bishop, Daughter of the Blood

            I wondered if he could ever understand that it was a blessing, not a sin, to be graced with more than one love.
            It could be complicated; of course it could be complicated. And it opened one up to the possibility of more pain and loss.
            Still, it was a blessing I would never relinquish. Love, genuine love, was always a cause for joy.
            -Jacqueline Carey, Naamah's Curse

            Service to your fellows is the root of peace.

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              #36
              Re: "Work with"?

              Originally posted by Thorbjorn View Post
              This may be a no-brainer (my brain is kind of Swiss cheese right now due to some personal issues), but what does the term "work with" mean when referring to deities? Is it simply whom one worships and the way one worships the deity(ies)? I give praises and thanks to the Aesir, Vanir, and spirits, but I talk almost exclusively to Thor; he is central in my offerings. That is, I toast to him first, then the All-Father, the Aesir and Vanir, and the spirits. I have images of some Hindu, Buddhist and Taoist deities around the house; while I believe in these deities and like what they represent, I don't pray to them or make offerings (there are people who do, so I feel covered ). Is it that simple, or is there a little more to the meaning of the term?
              For me, it's the difference in the relationship between the deity that I am sworn to (Skuld) and the deities that I engage in temporary (some repeated and regular, some once-off) 'business' arrangements. I revere all the deities that I work with, but I don't actively worship them all. And I don't have an ongoing devotional practice with them all. My relationship with Skuld is quite different to my relationship with Skadhi or Ereshkigal or Barbados... and those are quite different to my relationships with Halphas or Glasya-Labolas. As Shahaku said, it's about reciprocity rather than one-sided worship. It's also about a level of active engagement in the process. I don't pray and fawn and ask for favours... I pay for the aid that they give me, and the aid they give me is in conjunction with the work that I'm putting in for myself. So when I 'work with' a deity I am working twofold... I am working for myself, with help from some external entities... then I work to repay them for their aid.

              But again, there are nuances to my relationships. That's not how it works with Skuld, or even with Barbados. And sometimes the lessons I receive were not solicited by me, but by Skuld, so the deity isn't working for me at that point but is working at Skuld's behest. It's... complicated and tricky to explain.

              At the end of the day it really comes down to how you see deities, and how you see your relationship with them.

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                #37
                Re: "Work with"?

                Originally posted by Shahaku View Post
                I think, when someone says they work with a diety, they generally mean they feel they have a reciprocal relationship. As in they pray to, worship, honor this deity and that deity therefore effects the things in their lives, teaches them, sends them dreams, visions, etc. That it's a give and take relationship instead of just and I give and you ignore or don't notice relationship.
                That's pretty much exactly what I was going to say. I say "work with" rather than worship because I do believe a relationship with an entity requires reciprocity (again, this is my own path I speak for). If I work with a particular deity, I want to make sure I can do something in their realm to honor them: with Kwan Yin, I donate to charities and perform (at least) one act of kindness a day. With Saraswati, I take classes and study new things, and also share with/teach others what I've learned (I know Her realms are also art and music, but those aren't particular talents I have. I do visit museums and donate to them when I can. And I sing, but...not well.). I've just started speaking with Apollo, but I'm hoping to do writing and healing (more of the emotional sort than physical; I'm not a doctor) for Him (see above for art and music). Etc, etc.
                Army of Darkness: Guardians of the Chat

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                  #38
                  Re: "Work with"?

                  I think Rae'ya hit pretty close to my opinion on the matter.

                  That said, this question came up about a year to a year and a half ago so don't be surprised if I merge the threads (once I take time to find the original) so you have those answers too.

                  - - - Updated - - -

                  Zese threads have been joined in not so holy matrimony. What ze mods have joined, let no mortal tear asunder.
                  life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                  Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                  "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                  John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                  "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                  Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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                    #39
                    Re: "Work with"?

                    Thanks one and all.

                    Originally posted by Shahaku View Post
                    I think, when someone says they work with a diety, they generally mean they feel they have a reciprocal relationship. As in they pray to, worship, honor this deity and that deity therefore effects the things in their lives, teaches them, sends them dreams, visions, etc. That it's a give and take relationship instead of just and I give and you ignore or don't notice relationship.
                    Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                    For me, it's the difference in the relationship between the deity that I am sworn to (Skuld) and the deities that I engage in temporary (some repeated and regular, some once-off) 'business' arrangements. I revere all the deities that I work with, but I don't actively worship them all. And I don't have an ongoing devotional practice with them all. ...

                    At the end of the day it really comes down to how you see deities, and how you see your relationship with them.
                    Originally posted by habbalah View Post
                    That's pretty much exactly what I was going to say. I say "work with" rather than worship because I do believe a relationship with an entity requires reciprocity (again, this is my own path I speak for). If I work with a particular deity, I want to make sure I can do something in their realm to honor them...
                    OK, so I'm pretty much spot on in my understanding of it. I feel a reciprocity with Thor. It's also an unusual (or not) relationship... he's my big brother, friend and buddy, protector, inspiration, and master if you will, as well as my God. In the worship aspect, when I offer to him or pray at the altar, I get down on one knee, bow my head and put my right fist (which if you think about it, the clenched fist resembles a hammer ) over my heart. For me, it's a show of respect to his divinity... the line I draw between drinking buddy and God. Kind of like the line you draw at work if your boss is your best friend (I got that too). He has a lot of characteristics I see in myself. As I said in a few threads about this, maybe it's why I am drawn to him. I like the phrase "work with" then, rather than "worship".

                    Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
                    I think Rae'ya hit pretty close to my opinion on the matter.

                    That said, this question came up about a year to a year and a half ago so don't be surprised if I merge the threads (once I take time to find the original) so you have those answers too.

                    - - - Updated - - -

                    Zese threads have been joined in not so holy matrimony. What ze mods have joined, let no mortal tear asunder.
                    Thanks for moving this. I never thought to search for it, though I usually do (remember that Swiss cheese for a brain I talked about!?).

                    - - - Updated - - -

                    Originally posted by Torey View Post
                    I use the phrase "work with deities/spirits/etc." as it best describes my practice. I "honour" my gods, but I do not like the term "worship" as, for myself personally, it implies prostration and grovelling before a "superior being".
                    Bingo! Even though I kneel in serious prayer, I wonder if he's saying "Will you get up!" Or maybe he takes it in the spirit it's meant, reverence and respect, but not fear, doing it because I want to.
                    śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
                    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

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                      #40
                      Re: dumb newb question: Working with Deities

                      It's a sufficiently uncommon query that I didn't really expect you to know it had been asked before. I know it partly because I was involved in it and partly because monitoring is what I do.
                      life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                      Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                      "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                      John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                      "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                      Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                      Comment

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