Choices And Ethics

[Simatong]

Complicated question asked simply: If you were someone like an uncle, aunt, or cousin, and you knew of another family member (underage) who was drawn to the world and beliefs of pagans but came from a household of, say, devout Christians who viewed the pagan path as immoral, what would you do? Would you try and discuss this with the individual? Would you leave it alone out of respect for your other family members? Or would you do something different? Is it unethical to try and help someone else's child when your path is clearly something they see as ominous? Would you do it based on the fact that it was for the child (or teen) and their well-being in terms of religious understanding, even though you might risk causing tension between you and the child's caretakers? Or would you avoid it because of said potential consequence? Thank you in advance for your responses?

[RainbowDemonic]

Re: Choices And Ethics

I've been in this situation before, although not a family member and not dealing with minors. I would absolutely try to ensure that the pagan teenager is at the very least safe and not going to be subjected to abuse at the hands of their parents for believing differently. I encourage them to believe whatever they want, and make sure to say that I have nothing against Christianity either and if they want to be Christian they should totally do so - as long as it is their belief and not forced upon them. The issue hits very close to home for me. Certain very devout or extreme Christians will become extremely abusive, even dangerously so, when their child dares to believe something they don't (be it paganism, or displaying 'gifts', or LGBT type stuff, or whatever) - it can be very dangerous for those kids!! If I felt it was getting out of hand or that it was a dangerous/abusive situation for them, I would definitely contact CPS or otherwise strive to fight for the safety and liberty of that teenager, even if it meant looking into emancipation laws of that state and encouraging such. I'd do so because I was there once, and I would have given my very limbs to have someone do the same for me.

That being said, if the devout Christians are not abusive, I would simply tell the kid to believe what they wanted, as stated above, and to hang in there and be careful - it gets a little better when you grow up. That sort of thing.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Choices And Ethics

Sorry but i'd do nothing. I'd not want anyone telling me how to raise my child and I'd not not do it to another. The road to hell is paved with the best of intentions but its seldom the one who is doing the talking that pays the price.

[Sean R. R.]

Re: Choices And Ethics

Why do you care about ethics? Do what you believe is right. I believe we are children of the world, not of our parents.

[Little Baal]

Re: Choices And Ethics

I would most likely not do anything because I don't believe in getting in other peoples business but I if I was the child I would certainly rebel. I came from a household where my parents didn't care what I believed. When I got older I choose my own path while gradually breaking away from christianity. I remember when I was younger I would read the old testament a lot and I always seemed to show more interest in the other gods of the other nations. I believe that children should have more rights then that and should not be completely controlled by there parents. By the time I was thirteen I would have hated being told what to believe.

[Simatong]

Re: Choices And Ethics

Sorry but i'd do nothing. I'd not want anyone telling me how to raise my child and I'd not not do it to another. The road to hell is paved with the best of intentions but its seldom the one who is doing the talking that pays the price.

Thank you so much for your response. I can understand where you're coming from. For me, it is not about telling others how to raise their child, but rather, it concerns what to do if their is someone interested in and deeply drawn to the pagan way who has no one to turn to or associate with. Personally, if any of my nieces or nephews (which I actually have) were to tell me that they feel drawn to the pagan way and want to know more about it, or at the least wanted to understand some of the things that they were feeling, I would first start out by telling them that, while I truly want to give them support and guidance, they should first discuss this with their parents, letting them know how they feel and about what's going on. Afterwards, if they met with negativity, it might be a bit tricky, but I see it like this: It's not about dictating how one should or should not raise a child, but about letting a child know that there is someone out there who may understand them...that they are not alone. The tricky part for me would be what to do should their parents reject their thoughts and become livid with them. I would not want to cause tension between me and my family, and yet, I would also not want a child or teen to feel they have no one to talk to. It is a bit complicated, but I do appreciate you taking the time to give your insights, monso_leedra.
Thank you for taking an interest in this thread.
Sincerely,
司马 (Sima)

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I've been in this situation before, although not a family member and not dealing with minors. I would absolutely try to ensure that the pagan teenager is at the very least safe and not going to be subjected to abuse at the hands of their parents for believing differently. I encourage them to believe whatever they want, and make sure to say that I have nothing against Christianity either and if they want to be Christian they should totally do so - as long as it is their belief and not forced upon them. The issue hits very close to home for me. Certain very devout or extreme Christians will become extremely abusive, even dangerously so, when their child dares to believe something they don't (be it paganism, or displaying 'gifts', or LGBT type stuff, or whatever) - it can be very dangerous for those kids!! If I felt it was getting out of hand or that it was a dangerous/abusive situation for them, I would definitely contact CPS or otherwise strive to fight for the safety and liberty of that teenager, even if it meant looking into emancipation laws of that state and encouraging such. I'd do so because I was there once, and I would have given my very limbs to have someone do the same for me.

That being said, if the devout Christians are not abusive, I would simply tell the kid to believe what they wanted, as stated above, and to hang in there and be careful - it gets a little better when you grow up. That sort of thing.

Thank you so much DemonicRainbow for your insights and opinions. I think that if it were me, I would probably tell them the same thing (If you truly feel you are one with the Christian path, then follow it. But if you believe yourself pagan, follow what the heart says). Reading your post and the post of another individual on here kind of takes away the fear I have of cut ties with the parents. It is still somewhat complicated because a lot could be going on, but your advice and insight has put some things in perspective for me and seems most reasonable. Thank you for your response.
司马（Sima）

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Why do you care about ethics? Do what you believe is right. I believe we are children of the world, not of our parents.

I actually find much wisdom in what you have just said, SeanRave. It is an interesting approach to take and, while I might be somewhat more conservative in my thoughts on your statement, I think perhaps you are right...it is best to do what we think is right, though then again, some caution might also be in order.
Thank you again for your thoughts
司马(Sima)

[Sean R. R.]

Re: Choices And Ethics

I actually find much wisdom in what you have just said, SeanRave. It is an interesting approach to take and, while I might be somewhat more conservative in my thoughts on your statement, I think perhaps you are right...it is best to do what we think is right, though then again, some caution might also be in order.
Thank you again for your thoughts
司马(Sima)

Always happy to help.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Choices And Ethics

Thank you so much for your response. I can understand where you're coming from. For me, it is not about telling others how to raise their child, but rather, it concerns what to do if their is someone interested in and deeply drawn to the pagan way who has no one to turn to or associate with. Personally, if any of my nieces or nephews (which I actually have) were to tell me that they feel drawn to the pagan way and want to know more about it, or at the least wanted to understand some of the things that they were feeling, I would first start out by telling them that, while I truly want to give them support and guidance, they should first discuss this with their parents, letting them know how they feel and about what's going on. Afterwards, if they met with negativity, it might be a bit tricky, but I see it like this: It's not about dictating how one should or should not raise a child, but about letting a child know that there is someone out there who may understand them...that they are not alone. The tricky part for me would be what to do should their parents reject their thoughts and become livid with them. I would not want to cause tension between me and my family, and yet, I would also not want a child or teen to feel they have no one to talk to. It is a bit complicated, but I do appreciate you taking the time to give your insights, monso_leedra.
Thank you for taking an interest in this thread.
Sincerely,
司马 (Sima)

The bad part is a lot of pagans will tell you you should tell them or advise them unfortunately the world is not who raises a child its the parents that the system holds responsible. As an adult your held to a standard where you have to determine is it a true interest? Is it simple rebellion against either the parents, authority or their place in the system or a combination of all the above. You as the adult have to decide all these aspects as to what the true purpose or interest of the person actually is.

Consider just how often a child, and yes that's what they are, is influenced by peer pressure, hormones, concepts of injustice when an authority figure will not give in to their rebellion, even when they are trying to establish their own identity and their place within their own social circle. Pagans used to be all about personal responsibility and taking said responsibility for said actions but today it seems in many ways that has fallen to the side. When you intervene you give away your accountability upon the issue for you place it upon the youth pretty much to convince you they are truly ready and desire such information. If they don't its no longer an issue for you've given away your own accountability and authority over your actions and ability to judge for another. Not only judge but assume (ass-u-me) that you actually are reading them correctly and know them well enough to decide for them.

But then turn around and bitch as a parent if or when someone will do it to your child. From my perspective you stick your nose in and potentially hurt my child I have the right to hurt you back regardless of which degree I feel it needs to go to. Legally the justice system claims the same right to act upon or against you though they may not take it to the degree a parent would with inflicting pain upon you.

So no its not about letting them know their might be an alternative way it's about acting as an adult and accepting not only responsibility for oneself but also ones actions and the repercussions of said actions. I find it interesting though how many pagans in general are willing to say you should tell people something but I wonder about underage rape and such that occurs because those same children or young teens often do not know enough to avoid it, but hey the adult who told them to explore never seems to be around for that crap or the repercussions of their actions.

Edited to add:

Of course non of that even takes into consideration how much you actually know and how well you think you know it against what is actually out there or how others view it. I find it interesting how many will spends years trying to find their god / goddess or pathway yet think they can answer all the potential questions for someone who has little to no idea or knowledge to go on. Especially when you consider they will more than likely have to keep it hidden adn never be able to fully embrace it until they leave the nest and can support themselves.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Choices And Ethics

Intervening in the internal affairs of a family is one of the riskier steps to undertake and it can blow up in your face in a myriad of ways. Unless there's a current threat to the child's health then I'd be extremely cautious about meddling. It's too easy to screw up. If they're a teen, then it's not gonna be an insane length of time before they reach the age of majority and you can revisit the issue. I'm not gonna say, "never under any condition meddle". I will say that meddling should be treated like entering a minefield on foot. If you don't absolutely have to enter the minefield then don't and if you do then get out a knife, get on your hands and knees and expect a very long, very slow crawl where a single screw up will ship you on an express trip to the next world.

[RainbowDemonic]

Re: Choices And Ethics

I find it interesting though how many pagans in general are willing to say you should tell people something but I wonder about underage rape and such that occurs because those same children or young teens often do not know enough to avoid it, but hey the adult who told them to explore never seems to be around for that crap or the repercussions of their actions.

Okay wait - so I get that you're pro-parental-rights, and you're free to believe that and that's fine and all, but where did rape suddenly come in? How did we leap from "encourage teenagers to believe as they wish, or not" to "if you encourage them, YOU MADE THEM GET RAPED, but yeah you weren't around to deal with THAT were you?!". I have nooo idea what pagan beliefs have to do with rape, here. Totally lost me on that one.

[Sean R. R.]

Re: Choices And Ethics

Okay wait - so I get that you're pro-parental-rights, and you're free to believe that and that's fine and all, but where did rape suddenly come in? How did we leap from "encourage teenagers to believe as they wish, or not" to "if you encourage them, YOU MADE THEM GET RAPED, but yeah you weren't around to deal with THAT were you?!". I have nooo idea what pagan beliefs have to do with rape, here. Totally lost me on that one.

Rape is totally in my beliefs.

Lol, no, just kidding.

And I agree with you, Rainbow. That was quite a leap. In fact... That escalated quickly.

Also, Monsno, you start with "The bad part is a lot of pagans will tell you". Does that mean that any pagan that disagrees with you is wrong?

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Choices And Ethics

Okay wait - so I get that you're pro-parental-rights, and you're free to believe that and that's fine and all, but where did rape suddenly come in? How did we leap from "encourage teenagers to believe as they wish, or not" to "if you encourage them, YOU MADE THEM GET RAPED, but yeah you weren't around to deal with THAT were you?!". I have nooo idea what pagan beliefs have to do with rape, here. Totally lost me on that one.

Rape comes from the number of young idiots, especially young girls, who buy into the corrupted aspect of many Wiccan or pagan practices. I say idiot for in many ways it is idiotic the blindness and trusting nature many will enter into things with. It comes in from the teens and younger who are introduced to a pagan / occult concept and are suddenly facing the Great Rite that seems to be one of the jump of points that many despicable molesters use to introduce things. It's from the lack of knowledge that most of those adults who speak but assume no responsibility as a mentor or teacher but opens the doorway that enables those despicable people who will corrupt in a heart beat to gain a foot hold.

But as I said that goes back to taking accountability and responsibility for ones actions.

And no I'm pro accountability and responsibility for ones actions and the results of those actions. There's an old adage that "Loose lips sink ships!" there should be one about pagans who open their mouths but don't have the authority or accountability to speak to anyone who is not of an age legally to make their own decisions or accept the accountability and responsibility for making them. When one is a teen themselves they are not held to such a high standard for their parents are still legally accountable for them unless they are emancipated teens.

But in my perspective since you didn't connect the rape to despicable or corrupt coven leaders your not qualified to speak to anyone about pagan beliefs or practices. It's one of the oldest and most frequent cited abuses of coven power and leadership against newbies, especially young girls who are easily swayed in their desire to be accepted or learn.

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.. Also, Monsno, you start with "The bad part is a lot of pagans will tell you". Does that mean that any pagan that disagrees with you is wrong?

Not at all. But I will admit I tend to give them less credit when they speak of teaching or advising but have never done it themselves nor does their comment indicate they have been in such a position. Ie rape again as it is very apparent to those who teach or the responsibility you have as a teacher, adviser or one who considers it their responsibility or right to speak to others.

[Sean R. R.]

Re: Choices And Ethics

Ok, I still don't see the connection between religious rape (lol at the term) and telling a kid your opinion. Sure, most are gullible and easy to trick, but that doesn't mean that by telling them what you believe is right makes them more susceptible to being rape by a pervy priest.

Edit:

What I mean is WHAT THE FLYING HELL does the rape thing have to do with OP's post?

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Choices And Ethics

Ok, I still don't see the connection between religious rape (lol at the term) and telling a kid your opinion. Sure, most are gullible and easy to trick, but that doesn't mean that by telling them what you believe is right makes them more susceptible to being rape by a pervy priest.

Edit:

What I mean is WHAT THE FLYING HELL does the rape thing have to do with OP's post?

the OP wrote:

Would you do it based on the fact that it was for the child (or teen) and their well-being in terms of religious understanding, even though you might risk causing tension between you and the child's caretakers?

If one introduces a concept or awakens a desire to expand based upon the introduction of new material they take upon themselves the role of guide or teacher even if they have no further inter action with the person. The person who advised, guided or general spoke instills the spark that will cause the action or reaction to occur. If you can't train properly or guide properly then you have no purpose to open your mouth to begin with for you'll surely not be around though you may cause many issues for the person and that pertains to their spiritual well being and growth that you've influenced or corrupted as the case maybe.

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But I admit maybe that is just an ethics issue from a time when we actually held to initiations and lineage'd practices and accepted accountability and responsibility for all of our actions adn repercussions of those actions.

[Sean R. R.]

Re: Choices And Ethics

Well, yes, once a teacher, always a teacher. But obviously the OP doesn't want to rape the child... I think. And I agree it's a delicate thing. But still, the only person fit for deciding if their fit to teach them, it's the teacher itself. Specially in the eclectic sea of paganism. Any issue they cause is their responsibility and I'm pretty sure OP is aware of that.

I just think the rape comment/example was completely unnecessary and didn't illustrate your point at all.