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  • #31
    Re: Neolithic Shamanism

    Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
    The book in question explicitly treats Earth and Midgard as separate? Some think Earth = Midgard, some think Midgard is separate but sort of like Earth. I haven't read the book so I don't know which way they go on the issue.
    It doesn't explicitly address this actually. Or not that I've discovered so far. It calls the earth the 'starting place', teaching about land spirits, the concept of grounding and being fully in your body. Then it moves onto these 9 worlds which are the worlds of the sun (the golden world), moon (the silver world), plants (the green world), animals (the brown world), water (the blue world), fire (the red world), craft (the grey world), air (the white world) and ancestors (the black world). Probably not in that order, although the order you work through them, so long as you started at earth, isn't important (so I'm jumping ahead into the Green World because the summer seems an appropriate time, and because I've already worked with the sun and moon when I did my temple work).
    夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

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    • #32
      Re: Neolithic Shamanism

      Okay, different context, you mentioned 9 worlds and the authors of the book mentioned a post or two up deal with a lot of Norse Mythos so I was thinking of the Norse world tree. You seem to be dealing with something else.
      "It is not simply enough to know the light…a Jedi must feel the tension between the two sides of the Force…in himself and in the universe."
      ―Thon

      "When to the Force you truly give yourself, all you do expresses the truth of who you are,"

      Yoda

      Yoda told stories, and ate, and cried, and laughed: and the Padawans saw that life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

      Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

      "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

      John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

      "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

      Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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      • #33
        Re: Neolithic Shamanism

        Originally posted by Jembru View Post
        Well, I've read a little way through the book now and I'm so pleased I ordered it. I'm also glad that I had read this thread, because having little previous knowledge of the true history, I could have easily been taken in by their version of it. Of course, I wasn't interested in that side of it anyway, so I'm not too put off by their lack of historical accuracy.
        My experience is that you ALWAYS have to take the historical introductions with a grain of salt. I've not read one single book by a pagan (non academic) author that I took at face value when it comes to history and etymology. Pagan authors are notorious for not being particularly accurate when it comes to history.

        Originally posted by Jembru View Post
        As a workbook, it suits me wonderfully so far. I almost cried when I read the first chapter (not including the intro), and they started talking about the spirits that occupy the home. I've mentioned here and there on the forum that I 'talk to my flat and it answers'. I also have a dialogue with the spirit of the house I work in. My family and some of my colleagues know about this side of me, but I've always kind of played it down on PF out of fear of ridicule. Like 'oh dear, look at Jembru with her little imaginary friends', despite actually having much I'd love to ask and discuss about these spirits. Somehow, reading that there are other people with similar little imaginary friends validated my experience.
        House wights (husvaettir is the term used by NT and Heathen folks) are very common in European traditions, though they can be called different things. One of the few books that I kept out of storage while we're in the housing twilight zone (because I'm only halfway through it) is 'The Tradition of Household Spirits' by academic Claude Lecouteux, which has a lot of information regarding house wights across different European cultures... not so much from a spiritual point of view but from a literary, archaelogical and historical point of view. It's quite an interesting read if you're interested in some historical validation for your experiences.

        Personally Torey and I were very careful not to engage any husvaettir in our rental, because we knew we wouldn't be there forever. But as our own house is built we'll be inviting a husvaettr into the new building. There is some debate about whether husvaettir will stay with a house when you move out or come with you, and we didn't think it was worth the chance when we knew it was only a temporary home. I'm inclined to think that true husvaettr as described in historical sources are tied to the house, not the people who live in it... and I'm also inclined to think that they may sometimes be the source of supposed 'hauntings' and emotional personalities of old houses. Our rental had a cat spirit which was there when we moved in and which we invited to come with us, but which opted to stay behind in the house. I'm not sure I'd call it a husvaettr though! Though we do have a household of spirits who are a part of our 'family' and who are tied to us and certain objects of ours rather than the building we live in.

        I think you'll find that the phenomenon is far less rare than you thought it was, especially amongst people of Heathen, NT or Celtic persuasion. They just might call them things like brownies, domovoi, kobolds, tomte, nissies, boggarts or somesuch. Folklore (rather than religion) is an excellent source for researching house wights and other household spirits.

        Originally posted by Jembru View Post
        In fact, I rushed over and topped up my offering bowl, (which I had instinctively placed in the kitchen anyway, which is exactly where the book suggests it should go; although I maybe read or was told this somewhere before and I've just forgotten), as it had been a shamefully long time since I last left anything out.
        The traditional place for offerings to the husvaettir is the hearth, which in the modern home usually translates as somewhere in the kitchen lol. Traditionally, the hearth was the centre of the home, it was where the home was heated from, where you cooked at, and where you gathered in the evening. Modern homes are a bit different, and with more rooms and more contraptions there is much less of a central 'heart' of the house, so to speak. Most people instinctively feel that it's in the kitchen, but the idea is that the husvaettir live where the heart of the home is.

        Originally posted by Jembru View Post
        On that subject though, I was slightly taken aback by their comment about 'wiccan types' not leaving offerings after rituals. I don't know if it's just that the word 'wicca' is used much more loosely by certain groups in the states, but I don't know any wiccan who wouldn't show due respect and leave an offering after a ritual. If I were still wiccan, I'd have taken offence to the suggestion that wicca is less spiritually connected than their Northern Tradition shamanism. It reminded me of the Christian bashing you used to see in earlier wiccan/pagan publications. But of course, perhaps it was a genuine observation, in which case.. shame on those people.
        Unfortunately, both the authors suffer from a case of 'we must prove we aren't fluffy nonsense New Agers by being biased against anything neo-Wiccan'. It's something I've seen A LOT amongst Heathens, NT'ers, Demonolators and Shamanists. I think I've switched off to this fault, and automatically filter out any reference to it in any book I read... but it's not an uncommon thing to read when you start getting into certain other communities. I think it's absolutely like the Christian shaming... and the 'We don't even BELIEVE in the Devil' that many Wiccans proclaim when accused of being Satanist. To me it smacks of over compensating and helps perpetuate misinformation.

        Originally posted by Jembru View Post
        While the book frequently talks about things that are already part of my practices (or at least were previously when I was more filly engaged in my spiritual life), it has also introduced me to some useful concepts. Most notably, is the part where they said that the physical body is actually part of the soul. As someone who's quality of life has been battered by BDD (both in the traditional sense of obsessing over my unfortunate facial features, as well as hating my general body shape), this is a concept that could potentially be extremely healing for me. It's a great place to start in making peace with my body.
        Any time you want to discuss the soul complex, let me know.

        We call the body the 'lich' in the Northern faiths. There are a few spellings, by I use the Old Norse terms for my soul complex parts, which in my personal documents is 'Lík', but which I usually write as 'lich' online (because it's the most common spelling and the more likely to get you a hit from Googling). There are a number of other soul parts, but the lich is always a good place to start! The relationship between the lich (the physical body) and the hame (the astral body) is also a good place to start, especially because things like BDD and gender dysphoria are often connected to the fact that the lich and hame don't match.

        It's also quite difficult to do much in the way of shamanic journeying if you don't have a good grasp of how your physical and astral bodies work, interact and connect with each other.

        Originally posted by Jembru View Post
        It doesn't explicitly address this actually. Or not that I've discovered so far. It calls the earth the 'starting place', teaching about land spirits, the concept of grounding and being fully in your body. Then it moves onto these 9 worlds which are the worlds of the sun (the golden world), moon (the silver world), plants (the green world), animals (the brown world), water (the blue world), fire (the red world), craft (the grey world), air (the white world) and ancestors (the black world). Probably not in that order, although the order you work through them, so long as you started at earth, isn't important (so I'm jumping ahead into the Green World because the summer seems an appropriate time, and because I've already worked with the sun and moon when I did my temple work).
        Don't get too caught up in this nine world system... it's a completely arbitrary system that was made up specifically for this book. I suspect they used nine worlds because of the symbolism of the number nine for NT and Heathen folk, and because it splits up the exercises into manageable groups that easily relate to everyday life. They aren't tangible worlds in the sense that they are places in the Otherworlds... they're just a literary and spiritual tool to help you work through the content of the book.

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        • #34
          Re: Neolithic Shamanism

          Originally posted by Jembru View Post
          It doesn't explicitly address this actually. Or not that I've discovered so far. It calls the earth the 'starting place', teaching about land spirits, the concept of grounding and being fully in your body. Then it moves onto these 9 worlds which are the worlds of the sun (the golden world), moon (the silver world), plants (the green world), animals (the brown world), water (the blue world), fire (the red world), craft (the grey world), air (the white world) and ancestors (the black world). Probably not in that order, although the order you work through them, so long as you started at earth, isn't important (so I'm jumping ahead into the Green World because the summer seems an appropriate time, and because I've already worked with the sun and moon when I did my temple work).
          I can't remember if it's this book or one of his (Raven Kaldera) others where he talks about journeying and seeing both the Earth and Migard at the same time. I have been under the impression he views them as similar but on separate planes.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Neolithic Shamanism

            Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
            My experience is that you ALWAYS have to take the historical introductions with a grain of salt. I've not read one single book by a pagan (non academic) author that I took at face value when it comes to history and etymology. Pagan authors are notorious for not being particularly accurate when it comes to history.
            You do have to be very careful. But I will say, as an author myself, that I reference carefully (Harvard system) and have a full bibliography at the back of my books. That's often a good starting place but even then, proceed with caution. You would be amazed how many times I've checked someone's reference in an academic journal only to find that it says nothing of the sort being claimed!
            www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


            Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Neolithic Shamanism

              Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post

              Any time you want to discuss the soul complex, let me know.
              How does now suit you? I started a thread because I know how long our posts get, which is too long for a side topic! ^^

              I'll make another post for discussing house spirits in due time, but I was only meant to spend 30 minutes on that last thread and it's already gone to an hour and 15. I really should get some studying done before I leave for work.

              Don't get too caught up in this nine world system... it's a completely arbitrary system that was made up specifically for this book. I suspect they used nine worlds because of the symbolism of the number nine for NT and Heathen folk, and because it splits up the exercises into manageable groups that easily relate to everyday life. They aren't tangible worlds in the sense that they are places in the Otherworlds... they're just a literary and spiritual tool to help you work through the content of the book.
              Aaand... now I get the point of those inner temples! It's been bugging me because I never finished my work there. I never quite understood where Francesca was heading with it because she would roll out her course gradually, letting previous lessons lead into more advanced techniques gradually.

              I guess she was just using these temples as a convenient way of organising my inner work so she could better lead me through it. It's not like she should watch what was happening in Rotokia from some magic mirror after all. Well I'm less concerned about messing it up then!
              夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Neolithic Shamanism

                Originally posted by Jembru View Post
                I love the idea of the 9 worlds, although due to my previous experience of a similar system I''m not comfortable with them not including the Earth in their 9 worlds. I don't think they explained it (unless I missed it). I would argue that it is as much a 'world' as any of the other categories they suggest. Maybe 10 worlds just didn't sound mystical enough.
                I thought I might expand a bit for you on 'physical body stuff' or the World of Earth sort of stuff.

                I'm currently working on my own set of elemental inspired categories for magickal and spiritual practice, and Earth is a good place to start for me because it's the element I resonate with the most. It's also the element that many consider to be the most spiritually boring, because it's very much involved with the physical body and the physical world around us... which a lot of people don't think are magickal enough to be talked about much. The other reason it is often overlooked is that it involves many things that we take for granted, and forget to talk about, because they are foundational things.

                So here's my list of Earthy things to work on from a spiritual perspective...

                - Grounding! Not just grounding before or after work, but maintaining a permanent ground channel that you can move energy up and down.
                - Shielding. Basic shield and advanced shields. Psychic defense is an Earth sort of thing for me, which can be expanded into other elemental realms with advanced techniques.

                - Nutrition (not cooking... that's Fire... but nutrition)
                - Anatomy.
                - Physical health.
                - I know, boring, boring. But the physical body is your greatest connection to Earth energy... so looking after it is one of the best ways to explore Earth. Our flesh and bones are the dirt and soil and rock of our bodies. It's our foundation. Our stability. Bodywork is one of the most important things when working with Earth. It doesn't mean the perfect healthy diet with the perfect healthy body. It doesn't mean daily gym visits and endless workouts. It means understanding how your body works and what it needs. It means looking after your basic needs. It means trying to tweak your diet and lifestyle to provide your physical vehicle with the fuel and conditions it needs to be able to carry you around. It means treating your body with the respect and consideration that it deserves. It also means trying not to hate your body so much, which can be really, really hard for some people.

                - Genealogy and History. This can fall into Ancestor work, or it can simply be an investigation into your personal history and that of your family. I've always thought that history was a part of Earth, because it's the foundation and the place from which we came. Personal history, family history and the history of the place you inhabit are probably the most relevant to a personal practice that is rooted in a sense of place.

                - Geology and rocks. The dressed-up version is crystals and crystal healing, but the rocks in your backyard are just as profound as the ones at the New Age store.

                - Plants and plant energies (as above)
                - Herbs and herbal medicine (as above)
                - Gardening (as above). The best kind of gardening for Earth is a vegetable and/or herb garden, for a number of reasons... till the earth with your own hands, learn about the seasonal cycles, learn about the nutrition of the soil, learn about how plants work and what they need, learn about how seeds germinate, learn about the cycle of life, interact with plants on a daily basis, act out a prioritization of life when you decide to kill off weeds and harmful insects, learn about beneficial insects, learn about companion planting, learn about the miniature ecosystem of your backyard or greenhouse or balcony pot-plant garden, learn sustainable harvesting to get the most out of your plants... and then eat what you've grown, putting that energy back into yourself, nurturing yourself with something that you nurtured and bought to life and harvested.
                - Wildcrafting, which is gathering herbs and edible plants from the wild.

                - Animals and animal energies (which Neolithic Shamanism gives it's own world)
                - Raising companion animals.
                - Raising livestock. Pretty much what I said above only with animals rather than plants.
                - Hunting and fishing. I include fishing because the whole idea is about the cycle of life, nourishing yourself with the body of another being, respecting life and death and making yourself a part of that cycle. In that sense it makes no difference what element the animal lives in... life, death and nutrition are Earth.

                - Landvaettir. Meet your local land spirit/s (genus locii). Learn how the land spirit interacts with the spirits of the plants and animals that inhabit it (including you). Develop a relationship with your land spirit if it's amenable (they aren't all interested in interacting with people).
                - Check out the indigenous or historical accounts of your landscape, any folklore from the local area etc. In some cases you might find names for the land spirit, or the identity of local sprites and spirits that come through in your place.
                - City spirits. Cities have spirits too. Meet it and learn how it grew from the land spirit it invaded. If you live in a city your land spirit may not be interested in interacting with you, but the city spirit probably is. City spirits thrive off their humans, so they are almost always open to interacting with people.

                - Bioregional practices of any sort are a beautiful way to connect with Earth energy.

                - House spirits
                - Household management. Yes that means cleaning and housework, but it also means managing your assets and resources and running a household effectively. For the most part we've lost the sense of pride in running a household... with modern society it's almost become taboo to talk about running a household, lest we fall into outdated gender stereotypes of the housewife cooking and cleaning all day. But that's not what it's about. Running a household effectively is still an art, and it falls into the realm of Earth.

                - Physical labor
                - Occupation/job
                - Hobbies that involve physical crafts and construction of any kind.
                - Your job is in the realm of Earth, regardless of what it is, because it's your job. But it's difficult to do anything spiritual with your job because most people can't work in an area that feeds their spirituality. So falling back of physical labor or hobbies for Earth is helpful. Anything where you work with your hands is Earth, even if it includes other elements. I think that's part of why Neolithic Shamanism gives Craft it's own 'world'... because there is lots of overlap. But generally, if you are constructing something or making something that has a practical use, it's primarily an Earth type craft.

                - Fertility workings
                - Death, rot, and decay and all the workings that can go along with those
                - Defensive and protective workings
                - Binding, shielding, warding etc
                - Colour work

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                • #38
                  Re: Neolithic Shamanism

                  Wow! That needs printing off and stapling to something.. haha.

                  There are plenty of ideas there to get me going. I'd never considered that history could be an earth lesson, but it makes perfect sense. Rocks have tremendous memory after all (although I have also found that they have less concept of the passage of time on a smaller scale, so they may miss the fact that mankind has modernized and changed since those first tribal people who walked over them. It all just happened so fast).

                  On the subject of rocks actually. Using regular stones is actually something I've done for a long time. In fact I am sure there's a blurry photo of my favourite stone on photobucket, that I posted on PF before the crash..



                  There's the fella.. I'm surprised it's showing up as large as it is. I used to have to resize photos because back in the day images appeared massive on the forum.

                  I've forgotten what he is now actually (geologists, help!), but I was gifted him by my ex girlfriend along with a few other large stones that I've forged strong bonds with. I call this stone 'Big Grey', and he's definitely my favourite stone of all. I stopped buying crystals many years ago, but I will still use them too if the mood takes me (I never meditate with them though, I prefer my non-shiny friends for that), and I keep them clean and cared for.

                  I should take up rock divination again. I used to be good at it, but the last time I did this successfully is a bitter memory.

                  Understandably, my High Priest hadn't wanted me to go to Germany. He knew it was doomed to fail and whenever he spoke to me about it, he could hear my own spirit allies screaming at him to make me stop, because I'd stopped hearing them. However, he knew too, that my leaving would be the end of the coven. We'd broken away from the coven we'd been in together due to personal differences, and he'd had hopes of gathering together some of the members of the coven I'd been in years earlier, as some of us wanted to work together again, and the previous HPS had refused to even consider them on the grounds that they had more experience than her (she was a self-appointed HPS), so wouldn't be able to respect her position (probably true, actually). So I saw his comments as having an ulterior motive. He knew I was good at speaking to the stones, so he drove us down to the beach, hoping that I'd see my fate for myself.

                  We walked along the beach until I felt a pull towards one of the stones. I always look for a stone with distinct sides for this. I can still see the shape of this stone vividly in my memory. It was sandstone, and there was a diagonal line across one side, where it was raised (where the movement of waves would have caused ripples). I spent a few moments with it, and images started to form. I saw clearly that things were going to be bad in Germany. I wouldn't find work, Gattsu would reject me, I'd take years to recover from the damage the experience would cause. Yet I didn't want to believe any of it. I started to tell myself that I was a strong enough witch that I could change fate. I just wouldn't listen to reason because I was blinded by my desire for Gattsu. So I left, the coven was never reformed, and my HP moved down south where I believe he started a successful coven of his own.

                  I stopped being able to hear the stones after that (and I can't read tarot anymore either, because they too had been telling me what I didn't want to hear). In fact, I've never again been able to hear my guides clearly since that period, because I'd deliberately filtered them out, replacing them with a fake voice of my own creation, that said what I wanted to hear instead of what I needed to.

                  Hopefully working through these Earth lessons will help me to hear the stones again. More than that. I'm hoping that all of this work will bring back the true voices of my guides. They're currently speaking to me through the animals in my second world, but it's not the same as the open channel we once enjoyed.
                  夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Neolithic Shamanism

                    Regarding pebbles... have a look at what I found (and wrote about) in my blog:
                    www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                    Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Neolithic Shamanism

                      Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
                      Regarding pebbles... have a look at what I found (and wrote about) in my blog:
                      http://thewolfenhowlepress.com/when-...ecome-reality/
                      The link doesn't seem to be working for me.
                      夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Neolithic Shamanism

                        I'll try it again... though it works from here for me... how odd.
                        Here we go:
                        www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                        Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Neolithic Shamanism

                          Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
                          I'll try it again... though it works from here for me... how odd.
                          Here we go:
                          http://thewolfenhowlepress.com/when-...ecome-reality/
                          That one worked. Maybe it was just my PC acting strangely last night. Interesting story. I don't have anything so interesting in my meeting with Big Grey. The closest to an 'interesting' experience I've had with a stone would be the 2 almost identically shaped crystal shards, an amethyst and a citrine, that were both given to me by friends who found them randomly in car parks (about 3 months apart in different areas), and said they just 'felt' they were meant for me. These were both pagan friends though, and knew I was into crystals at the time, so it wasn't all that remarkable that they'd think of me.
                          夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

                          Comment

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