Is worship necessary?

[Alienist]

I always found worship to be not only uneccesary but kind of strange. When you worship a deity and then tell you to do something, you're just supposed to just do it and not question it? I'm not even sure if the deities even wanted worship and humans just said that just so they can control the populace more. Christianity for example. I don't think it's necessary to worship someone to go to the afterlife. I don't even think people need to really be religious in order to go to heaven or asgard or whatever good afterlife there is. Obviously where did dead people go before religion even existed on this planet? Did they all go to hell or purgatory or just wander around aimlessly as spirits? I think heaven is where good people go, religious or not. As long as you did more good than bad and have more good than evil in you, you're allowed entry After all I'd find it absurd that just because you don't worship a guy who healed others and died on the cross, that means you're not allowed entry into heaven? What sense does that make? I see the deities as not things to be worshiped but to be respected. I see Jesus as a role model to emulate. Basically an example of a good person. No Buddhist worships The Buddha but they hold him with high respect and understand his teachings? I don't even doubt the existence of the other gods and goddesses. I just don't really agree with certain rules and I certainly don't worship anyone or anything whether it's a deity or a human or whatever. I definitely don't think it's necessary to worship and do the will of the gods. I just feel like a slave to them if I worship them, even if they are good deities. One of the reasons why I don't care much for worship. When you worship, you do their will or follow their instructions and just do it no matter what. I feel all of the deities or supernatural people like Jesus or The Buddha or Yahweh or Odin should be respected but I highly doubt doing their will is necessary to enter into one of their heavens.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Is worship necessary?

I always found worship to be not only uneccesary but kind of strange. When you worship a deity and then tell you to do something, you're just supposed to just do it and not question it?

While I'm sure there ARE religions that teach such an idea, it's not part of mine. And my gods would like $%&! kick me if I DIDN'T ask or at the very least think about what I was being told was needed.

I'm not even sure if the deities even wanted worship

Easy way to figure that one out is to ask them. Mine like worship but from a position of strength. They don't want meek, snivelling servants.

I don't think it's necessary to worship someone to go to the afterlife.

I don't either. I DO think it's necessary to go to a PARTICULAR afterlife. Is my Atheist mother enjoying a much deserved rest in the afterlife? I have absolutely no doubt that she is. Will I see her in Folkvang when I pass on? No. And I'm honestly okay with that.

Obviously where did dead people go before religion even existed on this planet?

I'd say to one of the many places the dead go to now. Why do you think there is only ONE destination?

What sense does that make?

About as much sense as there only being one possible afterlife, to be honest. Which is to say not much.

So what are you trying to reason for yourself here? That you don't need religion to have a peaceful afterlife? According to my understanding, you don't. But if you're trying to reason that you don't have to make an effort on your own behalf to go to a specific, culturally relevant afterlife....I really can't agree with that.

It sounds like you have a lot of issues your Christianity, which you're fighting against, and that's fine. But why limit your ideas in this way? There is a lot more to the world than Christianity, and the same goes for afterlives.

When you worship, you do their will or follow their instructions and just do it no matter what.

That's an EXTREMELY narrow definition of "worship" and one I don't find accurate in the least. Why have you chosen to use it?

[Alienist]

Re: Is worship necessary?

You exaggerate. I don't have issues with Christianity and I even must note that I respect Jesus and the message. I only have issues with people who corrupted it for their own purposes and of Christianity is obviously not the only religion that has suffered this. I do respect the deities that deserve respect. However I don't worship them. It does seem like slavery to me. If I was Christian and Jesus came here am I supposed to just do whatever he says and not question it? If I was Hindu and Vishnu showed up, I'm supposed to do his will? I would also question as to why a god-like being would even want servants or worshipers. Perhaps they gain power over it, but I am not slave to any deity and serve no one. I have free will and like to help though. No deity is absolutely pure heart or perfect no matter how powerful they are. Perhaps there are multiple afterlives like heaven or asgard or the summerland, but I doubt being a slave to the deity is required to enter paradise. You just need to be good. That's what they are and what they are supposed to be. Role models. Someone to emulate. You look at Vishnu or The Buddha or Jesus or Yahweh or Odin or Heracles and you try to do selfless good and even heroic things like they did, not bow down to them and obey their every command.

[Gardenia]

Re: Is worship necessary?

I think part of the problem here is that you're hung up on the idea that worship must equal bowing down, being commanded about, and serving without ever questioning, perhaps in the hope that doing so will get you to some nice afterlife. I can tell you now, a lot of people who would say they worship their deities are not doing anything that really resembles that. That's your own hang up - it's not what everyone considers worship to be.

[Alienist]

Re: Is worship necessary?

How many times has Yahweh commanded many followers to worship him and no one else. Where he basically says "You WILL obey me and my instructions" There was also the absurd notion that if you didn't worship Jesus, you'd end up in hell and obviously no one wants to go to hell, so feel like a slave to the deity, do you not? You may respect them but it isn't necessary to worship them to go the good afterlife. They are just guides to show you a good way of going to the afterlife. Now however you may not enter into their afterlife because you broke a few rules but I doubt you'd be damned if you didn't follow a certain religion. You'd end up somewhere else but the afterlife of Yahweh or Odin is like a house. Obviously when you want someone to come to your house, you expect them to follow your rules, right? Same way with the deities. You have to follow their rules to enter their "house" so to speak and I suppose I could understand why someone would worship a certain deity to enter a certain realm. A strong hearty warrior would feel most comfortable in the realms of Asgard. Others would just like to reincarnate to a higher life form. I was wondering if any of you felt like you were slaves to these deities. What your basically saying is worship isn't slavery but it's honor and devotion to a certain person or deity Perhaps worship is just another way to enter another realm. You'd enter into a good realm regardless of your religion as long as you were good in life. However if you were bad, you accumulated too much negative energy to enter the realm and you are sent back somewhere else. But a good person will be in a good afterlife anyway though. But I guess if you not only wanted to enter into a good afterlife but hang out with the gods and feast with them or whatever I guess you'd have to show devotion.

[Malflick]

Re: Is worship necessary?

Worshiping something doesn't make you its slave.
If a friend of mine I respect and love asks me to do something, I will do it.

If my God I love and respect wants me to do something, I will do it.

And I will think about it.

Belief, worship, and devotion aren't slavery. Its a choice. Its choosing to follow something larger than yourself.

Oh, and I think you can go to heaven without high-fiveing Jesus to, so....

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Is worship necessary?

You exaggerate. I don't have issues with Christianity

Then why so hung up on the worship issue? I honestly haven't encountered a pagan religion that uses your definition of the term. I'm sure one or more could exist, but they certainly aren't the majority so such a definition isn't really part of general pagan thought/practice. I'm honestly confused where you're getting your ideas from or why you think you need to believe that worship can only be a given way.

[Serria]

Re: Is worship necessary?

Hi,

My name is Serria and I'm a Wiccan worshiping the Greek Titan Goddess of the Moon, Selene. I know that she chose me. The relationship we share is like that of a mother daughter and while I don't pray to her regularly or anything, our relationship is lovely.

I am personally a fan of the Buddhist version of reincarnation that when I am a whole person, I will be united with the Source. I think the Source can take the form of any God.

If you have a doubt about their feelings toward being worshiped, you could always ask them. Believe it or not, they are very open to most conversation (depending on how their day is going and which God you actually call).

I know that there is a form of a Christian God because I do believe I have experienced Him but I don't think he is the right form of the Source for me. I feel Selene is closer to me and always had a hand in my life. She is everything to me and I love Her.

As a side note, I'd like to say that you need to tone your posts down a bit. I don't mean any offense but you are coming across very angry and aggressive. It's just a suggestion....

[StormBringer]

Re: Is worship necessary?

If you're seeking discussion you need to tone it down a bit. You're being defensive and angry. Worship is not slavery or giving up yourself far as I am concerned, I leave small offerings, a chuckle or two and a nod at a particular statue now and then, and that is it. I know when the , source, is aware of me and when it is not. Simple as that.

[RainbowDemonic]

Re: Is worship necessary?

Alienist, I'm going to assume you've run into some of the really bad Christians (as distinguished from those who aren't douchebags about their faith but are genuine people who use it to better themselves, etc.) or you wouldn't be ranting. They're plentiful and easy to run into, but not necessarily a good reflection on the religion. My best advice is, don't let that affect your view on other religions, and don't let it stain your view of Christianity too much. The Judeo-Christian-Muslim branch of religion is far more likely to get into that whole slavery-to-their-god thing among people who wax too fundamentalist about it, simply because they are monotheists worshiping a jealous/possessive god who base their religion on texts that are full of insanity and war and genocide that make said god look bipolar at best, evil at worst. The good Christians are those who ignore God's little genocidal spouts in the Old Testament or may not even really be aware of how bad it got (a lot of them are really shocked when you tell them some of the more gruesome stuff therein contained) - they fell in love with Jesus and his teachings about grace and redemption, and more or less shrug off the insane parts. The bad ones read the bipolar-war-and-genocide-and-judgment stuff and go "Woohoo, license to be a total jackass to everybody!" That's just how life goes.

Don't let this tint your view on other religions. Paganism, for one, is polytheistic, pantheistic or even non-theistic (I know, I probably used the wrong word) in nature. There is no pressure to serve any particular god, and a much more open-minded view of things in general. We pagan types tend to be pretty laid back as a whole. Worship is more or less optional.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Is worship necessary?

I always found worship to be not only uneccesary but kind of strange.

I won't say it is a necessity in the sense of a daily or weekly observance that is required to be made in the name of some God, god, or goddess. Heck in antiquity worship could be an observance of honoring that occurred once every so many years. Yet the dedicant was as spiritual in that as the one who supplicated themselves before their God, god or goddess every day.

When you worship a deity and then tell you to do something, you're just supposed to just do it and not question it?

None of the gods / goddesses I am sworn to and bound to desire such a thing. Choice is always left up to me as to what I shall do or am willing to do. Yet I also acknowledge that I maybe asked to do something simply to see if I am willing to do a thing not that I am expected to actually do it. In many ways its a matter of trust and belief in not only oneself but also their belief in their divinity.

I'm not even sure if the deities even wanted worship and humans just said that just so they can control the populace more.

I believe that humanity manipulates mankind to control not ones divinities. Yet that manipulation is seldom asked by the deity but by mankind's greed and attempt to raise himself / herself to a higher place within the social / political underpinnings of that society.

Christianity for example. I don't think it's necessary to worship someone to go to the afterlife. I don't even think people need to really be religious in order to go to heaven or asgard or whatever good afterlife there is.

I'll leave the specifics of Christian afterlife and such to the Christians to speak upon. That said I do not recall anything that one has to be a certain way to gain entrance to "Heaven" only that Jesus is the doorway and acceptance of him provides such. Now what acceptance is has changed so many times that I honestly do not know what it is anymore.

Obviously where did dead people go before religion even existed on this planet?

Well considering there are burial rites that have been found dating back long before an established religion and a care given to the bodies that some sort of "Next-life" had to be practiced. Even Neanderthal burials have suggested some sort of care of the dead and rite or ritual suggesting some notion of a belief.

Did they all go to hell or purgatory or just wander around aimlessly as spirits?

That one is difficult to answer given that there were many forms of death and afterlife. And yes some do simply wander as angry spirits until they are given proper burial and funeral rites by social customs. In archaic Greece known as the Restless Dead.

I think heaven is where good people go, religious or not

That is your right.

As long as you did more good than bad and have more good than evil in you, you're allowed entry After all I'd find it absurd that just because you don't worship a guy who healed others and died on the cross, that means you're not allowed entry into heaven?

Good and evil are very subjective terms and have very differing definitions from time period to time period. The Norseman who went a viking was seen as a great evil and killer by the Britons yet the epitome of proper Nordic / Teutonic custom and practice. The Christian who slew the Moor in saving the Holy Land a killer in their eyes but a great Christian according to the church of that time.

What sense does that make? I see the deities as not things to be worshiped but to be respected.

Many times proper worship is simple respect and observance of proper belief and action. What might be called right living

I definitely don't think it's necessary to worship and do the will of the gods.

Then don't. But because other's do chose to do so doesn't make them weak or anything.

I just feel like a slave to them if I worship them, even if they are good deities.

Then that is your problem and to my perspective suggest you really do not know what it means to honor and worship them or just what being a slave actually is. At best it suggests your seeing dogma vice spirituality in how you relate to them in my opinion.

One of the reasons why I don't care much for worship. When you worship, you do their will or follow their instructions and just do it no matter what.

Perhaps in your world view but not mine. Especially considering I find their will often a reflection of my own ethics and morality in how I interact with others. Sometimes for good, other times for bad I admit based upon another's assumption of what is right and wrong, good or evil, etc.

I feel all of the deities or supernatural people like Jesus or The Buddha or Yahweh or Odin should be respected but I highly doubt doing their will is necessary to enter into one of their heavens.

Perhaps the issue there lies in how you define both worship and heaven.

- - - Updated - - -

I will state that none of the gods / goddesses I am sworn and bound to require me to supplicate myself before them. That I may face the earth for dealings with the chthonic gods / goddesses or stand with arms raised and face the heavens when I speak to Celestial gods / goddesses is not supplicating myself to or before them but recognizing where I perceive them to reside.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Is worship necessary?

Another point is that even the OT LoH could be argued with under the right conditions. Didn't mean you were going to win but unless you were actively rude to him, you could at times question/argue with him just fine. The part of the Sodom and Gomorrah storyline that everyone generally ognores when pulling it up is that before the LoH goes on a city killing spree, he talks to Abraham about it. Abraham challenges him again and again and again and gets concessions

guilt tripping God

[Alienist]

Re: Is worship necessary?

I just thought the whole idea of worship was to submit to them. I guess everyone has their own version of worshiping. Again I'm not bashing Christianity or any religion for that matter. I'm questioning certain things. I've seen bad Buddhists too. Then again they aren't really Buddhists if they act opposite of what they are supposed to do. Anyone can claim to be Buddhist or a Christian or a Jew or a Hindu but it's another story to actually act like one. I am just looking for a certain clarification here. You are basically saying that worship isn't really submission but showing love devotion and honor to a certain deity. In that case I could understand. The deities are there for guidance and to give you vast strength and knowledge. They aren't there just so you may bow down to them because they are teachers, not slave masters.

[Satu]

Re: Is worship necessary?

I just thought the whole idea of worship was to submit to them. I guess everyone has their own version of worshiping. Again I'm not bashing Christianity or any religion for that matter. I'm questioning certain things. I've seen bad Buddhists too. Then again they aren't really Buddhists if they act opposite of what they are supposed to do. Anyone can claim to be Buddhist or a Christian or a Jew or a Hindu but it's another story to actually act like one. I am just looking for a certain clarification here. You are basically saying that worship isn't really submission but showing love devotion and honor to a certain deity. In that case I could understand. The deities are there for guidance and to give you vast strength and knowledge. They aren't there just so you may bow down to them because they are teachers, not slave masters.

The idea of worship is a vast spectrum. It is NOT black and white.

Some worshipers do submit to their deities, but that's not the same as becoming mindless slaves. Submission (at least in the general pagan context) brings with it the idea of consent. As in, you agree to submit to deity to X degree. You still have rights, too, and can exercise them as in any relationship. That's not to say that deities aren't powerful and won't throw their weight around if they want something out of you, of course. I have said, "NO, NO, NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT!" in response to requests before and while I can't say the refusal was always met with pleasure, the sky didn't fall down. (Well, okay, I was a bit more respectful than that, but I try to be like that with everyone. )

With submission also generally comes love and devotion. I can't speak for the monotheistic faiths, but most pagans don't seem to establish relationship with deity from a place of fear. I mean, most pagans do have a small fear of their deities, since deities can be pretty darn scary. It's just that fear isn't predominant.

Everyone's relationship with deity is different. For some, deities are slave masters. For others, deities are friends. Deities can also be lovers, parents, children, mob bosses, enemies, teachers, supervisors, coworkers, naggers, and just about anything else in the context of paganism. It seems that quite a lot of the deities in the world work at the level that's best for the devotee. If you do better approaching deities as friends, as long as you're respectful, you'll probably find a few who will be, on some level, your friend. Or if you do better with supervisors, then you'll eventually find deities who are willing to take that approach with you.

[Claude]

Re: Is worship necessary?

This whole debate centers on how you define worship. Most traditional pagan traditions will tell you that worship is votive based. This means that it is a gift giving, like friends at Christmas. I make a libation to Dionysus not because I fear Him and not because I am compelled to, but because I love Him and want to express my love. In turn the Gods express Their love through blessings and guidance. In this view humans do not play an obvious subordinate role in the Cosmos.

If you frame it like you originally stated, in a Christian context, then the whole thing changes. Worship is mandatory in Christianity because if you don't St. Peter slams those gates shut. Obviously, this view subordinates humans.