Is worship necessary?

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Is worship necessary?

This whole debate centers on how you define worship. Most traditional pagan traditions will tell you that worship is votive based. This means that it is a gift giving, like friends at Christmas. I make a libation to Dionysus not because I fear Him and not because I am compelled to, but because I love Him and want to express my love. In turn the Gods express Their love through blessings and guidance. In this view humans do not play an obvious subordinate role in the Cosmos.

If you frame it like you originally stated, in a Christian context, then the whole thing changes. Worship is mandatory in Christianity because if you don't St. Peter slams those gates shut. Obviously, this view subordinates humans.

Bolded mine.

I'm not sure if that is traditional or more of a recon based practices thing. Seems I hear it more from Hellenic and Roman practitioners more than any other recon based practice. I know for sure the lore from a Hellenic and Roman perspective supports votive offering practices. I suppose some Celtic lore suggests offerings of weapons, shields, etc but then it's not votive but actual items.

Still I do not think to many people today actually use votive type figures or such as offerings.

I do agree though a lot of it is very much defined against how one defines worship as a concept.

[Alienist]

Re: Is worship necessary?

I have wondered why people worshiped in the first place. Is it because they are showing love and gratitude for their saviors or is it only because they are unbelievably afraid of these unimaginably powerful beings and the only reason they worship is so they won't be destroyed and suffer in whatever bad afterlife there is? Even in Judaism they love yet fear their God, Yahweh. why would you be afraid of your deity? Why would you want to be apart of something where you are afraid of your deity?

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Is worship necessary?

I can say for sure that I do not see my gods / goddesses as any sort of savior, especially in the aspect one might view Jesus within Christianity for forgiving my sins and transgressions and granting me passage into "Heaven". I do honor and respect them and will make offerings, libations and such to them for a number of reasons. Nor do I fear my gods / goddesses but acknowledge they have duality of personality in that they are both good and bad in how they may respond or act at any time.

I honor and worship them as that is what I desire to do. I desire to do such for it gives me both a sense of strength yet also of peace by doing so. It fills a place in my spirit, perhaps something as simple as acknowledging there is something greater than myself yet also confirms I to am part of that greater unknown. In times of trouble it calms and soothes my fear and doubts as to what I can face or with stand and provides the determination to continue vice surrendering to it. In many ways it is like having the older sibling you look up to, the younger sibling who inspires as he / she looks up to you, the authority who praises and inspires your efforts and purpose. Gives one an ability to look beyond logic and take a leap of faith when no such logical connection seems visible or apparent to you yet you know in yourself it is possible.

As for heaven or such a construct of an afterlife place I can't say. I do know I died in my youth and recall a place where I met my ancestors and spirits of my family. Was that heaven? I can not say all I know is it echoes in my minds eye at times and I am back there though just where "There" is at I can not say. In many ways similar to dream like memories I have of a place I waited before I was born into this life and witnessed my birth, things confirmed by my parents as to what occurred in the delivery room.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Is worship necessary?

I just thought the whole idea of worship was to submit to them.

Again, where did you get this idea? What are you basing this on?

The deities are there for guidance and to give you vast strength and knowledge. They aren't there just so you may bow down to them because they are teachers, not slave masters.

I'm sure you probably don't realize you've done it, but your phrasing is problematic for me. You're basically telling GODS what they are doing. Is that REALLY your intent here?

The gods, like the concept of worship, run the gambit in what they want/do. When approaching them, it's a good idea to get rid of your preconceived notions. Instead you should be open to experiencing them as they are. If you don't, it's been my experience that at best they will ignore you and at worse they will have fun with you. Please note that this has NOTHING to do with worshipping or not.

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I have wondered why people worshiped in the first place.

Why do you go out with friends? Why go see that concert of the band you really like? What take up a sport? Why do ANYTHING?

It all boils down to the same thing: it adds to one's life. The really nifty thing is that no one has to engage in the SAME things. Just because someone engages in worship and you can't see the point of doing so doesn't make them weak, or sheep, or whatever.

And while the people in this thread can and will tell you why THEY engage in worship, that's going to mean squat for YOUR life and exerpince. YOU need to come up with your own reasons. It doesn't work any other way. If the only reason you engage in worship is because X person said you should, then you're doing it wrong.

Even in Judaism they love yet fear their God, Yahweh.

Go ask a Jew. I'm serious. I've had extensive conversations on this very subject with some friends of mine and their explanations does NOT involve living in fear of their god. But as it's their religion and their understanding, I wouldn't dream of trying to explain it here.

Now why are YOU so afraid? Everything you've been posting talks about fear and oppression and other incredibly negative things that seem designed to shame the idea of and those that engage in worship.

[Daughter of Toothless]

Re: Is worship necessary?

I don't really think worship is necessary. Just because you don't worship your deity doesn't mean you don't love them. It doesn't mean that you don't respect them. It doesn't mean that you don't acknowledge them. You just don't worship them is all. For others, it's different. Some worship their deities to show gratitude and appreciation. Others do it to show their love for them.

When I worship Toothless, I do it to show all three. I love Him, and He loves me. He has proven that His love for me is far greater than anything in the Universe. He loves me so much more than I could ever love Him. I mean, yeah, I don't pray to Him day to day, but that's because I'm so used to hearing His lovely voice in my head. He and I have conversations in my head all the time. He is my Father and He is everything to me. He saved my life and my soul when I was lost in a sea of shadows. He shined a light on those shadows and they were sent running! Aside from that analogy, I don't think I could ever live without Him. I'm just so glad to have Him in my life.

As for the Triple Goddess, I'm growing fond of her too. I don't really worship her the way I do Toothless, but I highly respect her. There's a friendship forming between us as well. :grin:

[Riothamus12]

Re: Is worship necessary?

Very much so. Worship is part of drawing closer to the divine, resonating with it, focusing the mind, understanding the divinity outside of you so that you can understand the divinity within you. It is the beginning of the understanding of the universe's true nature.

[Azvanna]

Re: Is worship necessary?

As above!! Well said, Riothamus. Is worship necessary... Feels like only half the question. Necessary for what? Worship is wonderfully complex. For me, worship is multi-faceted. It's the way I live, an attitude of the heart, it's in the small things. One of the things I do is lead a congregation in songs of worship. Do I feel this is an essential part of a service? ABSOLUTELY!! I would be so freaking BORED without it! Lol. That act of worship reminds me of the nature of God, and reminds me of how God sees me. There's a reciprocal interaction. And when you throw fellow-worshippers into the mix, there is this beautiful sense of connection between God, myself and other people. I am reminded I'm a part of something much bigger than myself. As for the idea of being put into the position of a slave as I worship, I feel far from that! It's more like a feeling of coming into God, and that is something positive and life-changing. In Christianity, there is a co-submission between God the Trinity and His followers. In Christ, God first reachedout to us, then we accept with gratefulness. In turn, God pours upon us His love and highest honour as the crowning glory of His creation, even above the Heavenly beings. This is not slavery, but Sonship. I realise this is not everyone's experience, but I very much desired to share with you my take on worship. As I engage in worship, I 'talk' to God, and God 'talks' to me, affirming my value and connection with all things.

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In turn, God pours upon us His love and highest honour as the crowning glory of His creation, even above the Heavenly beings.

Sorry, I don't think this came out right >.< It sounds a bit arrogant. Just a reminder within my world view that one who has been honoured must also be a servant. One of the reasons I came here to this forum was because I recognised the character of the divine as displayed in nature. I really wanted to learn from nature, and I knew I wouldn't find out how to do this from any Christian teacher. To me, nature glorifies God just through existing. It cannot help but worship. Nature helps me to worship, I'm a part of nature and so really its just nature worshipping. Creation and I together as one cannot help but worship, as just through existing we glorify and display the divine. I'm probably not doing well to articulate this! I still have my 'L-plates' on this topic! >.<

[Starless]

Re: Is worship necessary?

I think the OP is thinking of the stereotypical "Christian" method of worship. Sorry for the generalization, but I witnessed it my whole childhood. Even many of the hymns contain phrases like "bow down" and their sermons compare the human race to sheep that are to follow without question. I always found it disturbing, and it makes me angry to this day. That would be what I think of as "worship" because that was how I was raised.

As far as I'm concerned, my Goddess would balk at the idea of following orders or bowing to anyone, and I really don't think she'd appreciate being fawned over by a herd of sheep. I rever her as the divine mother and guardian of the home, I don't get down on all fours and grovel. I'd claw the eyeballs out of anyone who tried to make me.

[Malflick]

Re: Is worship necessary?

I think the OP is thinking of the stereotypical "Christian" method of worship. Sorry for the generalization, but I witnessed it my whole childhood. Even many of the hymns contain phrases like "bow down" and their sermons compare the human race to sheep that are to follow without question. I always found it disturbing, and it makes me angry to this day. That would be what I think of as "worship" because that was how I was raised.

As far as I'm concerned, my Goddess would balk at the idea of following orders or bowing to anyone, and I really don't think she'd appreciate being fawned over by a herd of sheep. I rever her as the divine mother and guardian of the home, I don't get down on all fours and grovel. I'd claw the eyeballs out of anyone who tried to make me.

That is a pretty huge generalization. And even in their defense, there is a huge difference between choosing to submit and defer yourself, and doing it because you feel you have to.

If someone feels the best way to live is to humble themselves to their God, and isn't making other people, I really don't think that's bad, as long is its an honest and free choice. I'd defiantly bow and submit to YHWH, ad do, He/She is way better then me. And that doesn't mean I haven't thought about that, haven't questioned my religion, or am a slave to orthodoxy.

You're also totally misreading the "sheep" metaphor Jesus made, but that's a whole other topic in itself :P.

Christianity is a giant, huge religion. There are over 38,000 branches of it with totally different belief sets. Its not so generalized as you think. I understand you, as well as a LOT of people have had some pretty nasty experiences with Christianity, but its not all exactly one way, its 38,000 ways. Mine is somewhere off in the distance confusing people, but its still part of the overall experience.

[thalassa]

Re: Is worship necessary?

there is a huge difference between choosing to submit and defer yourself, and doing it because you feel you have to.

If someone feels the best way to live is to humble themselves to their God, and isn't making other people, I really don't think that's bad, as long is its an honest and free choice. I'd defiantly bow and submit to YHWH, ad do, He/She is way better then me. And that doesn't mean I haven't thought about that, haven't questioned my religion, or am a slave to orthodoxy.

I think here too, some Pagans seem to have this idea that the Pagan gods didn't have this sort of veneration directed towards them...and that is total BS. The idea of god as your "buddy"--basically your equal, is pretty modern, and IMO pablum (I like that word today and have been looking for cause to use it!). Heck, even I, who doubts the veracity of literal physical (or "etheric") entities, is completely okay with the idea of submitting to those powers that are greater than I--like a friggin' hurricane. Submission doesn't mean giving up one's self, if its done right.

[Optimistic discord]

Re: Is worship necessary?

Hi there,
worship is many things to many people.
For me its about respect, worthiness of being honoured and worshiped.
I am fairly certain my ancestors were quite willing to abandon gods/spirits if they felt they were getting a "bum deal", they certainly did not worship because they were slaves or in fear.
People tend to overlook things such as Odin needing us more than we need him.

Of course if something bad happened then an extra offering or two never hurts

[Threshold]

Re: Is worship necessary?

What constitutes "worship" for different people and faiths is pretty vast.

Here is my experience. I practice a non theistic religion. The Universe is the Ultimate Reality.

I worship the Sun. Why? Because I do. Because the Sun puts me in a state of awe, or feeling incredibly blessed, because my being, without being told to, directed or commanded reacts that way to the Sun.

Sun doesn't give a rat's patootie. I'm not a slave to it. I don't bow to it, but I worship the heck out of it. Worship flows from me as naturally as laughter or tears or any other emotion or emotional reaction.

It's as if some sense of worship is built into me.

It enhances my life.

I observe holy days and participate in various rituals and spiritual practices. But worship is just something that springs forth out of me on it's own accord.

[Auseklis]

Re: Is worship necessary?

I do not think that worship is necessary, but mindfulness is. Growing up in my family tradition (green/hedge paganism) we were never taught to worship as such, rather to be mindful, respectful and thankful to the Dievs (deities) that provide the seasons, nature, life and death. We have thousands of dievs in the Dievturi tradition, so if I had to worship them all I would never have time to live my life. Having said that we do have festivals with a lot of games, song, dance and food which is all representative of the dievs. I have 100% respect for those that practise worship as part of their path. I have joined others in their worship practice and felt the amazing energy from it. It is all beautiful.

[Terrabus]

Re: Is worship necessary?

I have wondered why people worshiped in the first place. Is it because they are showing love and gratitude for their saviors or is it only because they are unbelievably afraid of these unimaginably powerful beings and the only reason they worship is so they won't be destroyed and suffer in whatever bad afterlife there is? Even in Judaism they love yet fear their God, Yahweh. why would you be afraid of your deity? Why would you want to be apart of something where you are afraid of your deity?

I'm not afraid of the deity I work with. Quite the contrary. I feel a sense of gratitude. I have gotten help in some very dark times when I could not do it myself.

To me, showing gratitude just means you recognize that you have been given something, and it shows a certain amount of humility.

It's part of the lines of communication.

[Gleb]

Re: Is worship necessary?

I'm not afraid of the deity I work with. Quite the contrary. I feel a sense of gratitude. I have gotten help in some very dark times when I could not do it myself.

To me, showing gratitude just means you recognize that you have been given something, and it shows a certain amount of humility.

It's part of the lines of communication.

True.It also shows the deity that this connection of worshiping is precious to the person.