Dying well?

[Chris the Bold]

I'm not sure if anyone else feels this way, but does dying well matter anymore? I want nothing more than to die a worthy death and earn a seat in Valhalla at Odin's table, but I feel that since we (Americans) are not a warrior/militaristic society this is could be difficult. I feel compelled to be in the military, but I'm not comfortable fighting and dying for this country. I don't mean to sound morbid and like I want to kill and be killed in battle, but this was important to my ancestors, so I feel that it should be to me too.

So I guess I'm asking if anyone thinks its still important today? I know that the world isn't in the dark ages and barbaric anymore, but still.

I'm pretty new to actually being a Heathen, I have a lot to learn, but I know in my blood it's right. Any input is appreciated.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Dying well?

I think any death where one stood up and faced death head on is a good death. Didn't matter whether it be upon the battlefield, upon the streets as a cop or in the flames as a firefighter. I once heard the man who is shoot in the chest fighting goes to one of the halls, the one who cowered and died like a pig at the slaughter is not even in for consideration. Many times it was about dying for what they believed in yet not by standing or defending at home. The only bad death I suppose was one where your body was broken with age and you became a load stone about the neck of your society.

Yet a good death did not get you a guaranteed seat in Vahalla. Nor do any of the saga's or edda's suggest one can guide their lives to such an end as that is the domain of the Valkyrie to decide if you died a good death and were worthy of Vahalla or one of the other halls.

Does it still matter? For some it does whether they be following a Nordic / Teutonic / Icelandic pathway or not. I am more Hellenic in practice and beliefs but also walked the warrior's pathway for 23 years in the military and perhaps longer according to those who know my character and mentality. Yet I seem to find it more pertaining to those who walk with death as a daily aspect of their lives who believe it more. But then they also walk to live not live to walk.

[Gleb]

Re: Dying well?

It is important to many people.
I am not ancient egyptian, and because of this, I can't be mummified, perhaps.
Dying well matters to me. Because of this, I try to be as good as I can. And I recommend the same to you- to do good things.
If you do them, and help others, so I think that you will be able to join Odin's table. Even if it's not fighting in a battle (I am not an expert, but this is my opinion).
I hope that my answer has helped you somehow, comrade.

[thalassa]

Re: Dying well?

We have a parallel sort of conversation going on somewhere around here...at least on the topic of Valhalla and honor in combat, etc. Personally, and take this with a grain of salt because I'm not Heathen or interested in Heathenry other than idle intellectual curiosity-wise, I don't find the idea of Valhalla to even be particularly goal worthy. And with that being said, I could care less the why and how of the events of my death, AFAIC, the only way to die well, is to have lived well. And if you live well, it doesn't matter how you die, because you will have made a much bigger difference day-by-day, moment-by-moment, person-by-person than going out in a single heroic blaze of glory.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Dying well?

Yes, I think Dying Well is important, but I have a different definition then most people. To me, dying well isn't getting shot while standing up to a mugger or similar. In my mind, Dying Well would be in a manner consistent with my life and my personality. I can Die Well in a bed, surrounded by family. But if I made a death bed conversion and then croaked, that wouldn't be consistent with my life or my personality. I will have died, but not Well.

Hopefully this makes sense as I haven't had my coffee yet.

[Chris the Bold]

Re: Dying well?

These are all good points. I certainly agree that living to the fullest and trying to make a positive difference is important. I can see a sort of balance I suppose, if one lives well one will probably die well. I think most of us can agree on that in some form or another.

Also, I really like what you had to say monsno and I thank you for your service.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Dying well?

I'm with Thalassa on this. IMHO, it's a total waste of time thinking about how one dies. Instead, pay attention to how you LIVE.

If you live well, your death can not be other than right - it's inevitable.

The question, of course, is "what does it mean to live well?"

Actually, that's a better question, since we spend more of our lives living than dying... although one could argue that we spend our entire lives dying, so the questions end up being the same...

[Munin-Hugin]

Re: Dying well?

I suppose that there is little to say, that everyone else has not. Though, two things came to mind as I read through the posts.

"Tell me how he died"

"I will tell you how he lived."

and

"A man might be thought wealthy if someone were to draw the story of his deeds, that they may be remembered."

M&H

[Wednesday]

Re: Dying well?

I'm not sure if anyone else feels this way, but does dying well matter anymore? I want nothing more than to die a worthy death and earn a seat in Valhalla at Odin's table, but I feel that since we (Americans) are not a warrior/militaristic society this is could be difficult. I feel compelled to be in the military, but I'm not comfortable fighting and dying for this country. I don't mean to sound morbid and like I want to kill and be killed in battle, but this was important to my ancestors, so I feel that it should be to me too.

So I guess I'm asking if anyone thinks its still important today? I know that the world isn't in the dark ages and barbaric anymore, but still.

I'm pretty new to actually being a Heathen, I have a lot to learn, but I know in my blood it's right. Any input is appreciated.

The death rate for our ancestors was a lot higher for them than it is for us. If fifty men are going to be taken out in a war its generally those who 'died well' that are best remembered. And what man wouldn't rather be known for sacrificing his life for the community then for dying of pneumonia in bed?

But things are different for us now. The rules are different, the challenges different. Dying well has an entirely different meaning.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Dying well?

I think one aspect that appears to be missing in this discussion is the cultural belief that ones "Death" was already weaved into the skeen of life so worrying about it served no purpose and could not change it. As such if you were going to die anyway then why not put everything into every action you take. To live life to its fullest as if every day was your final day and you could face whomever with the knowledge you'd lived it to its fullest and gave your best right to the very end.

The other aspect missing I think is implied in many Nordic practices but not clearly written in them. That is the creative counter aspect to the warrior. The closest I can think of is revealed in Bushido when you see the warrior trains to hone their skills for battle but also creates via Poetry, Painting, etc to balance the energies and keep their perspective of life. To balance creation with destruction, to see the totality of life in all its aspects.

[Claude]

Re: Dying well?

At best the Eddas are a picturesque view of Icelandic/Nordic society. It's really fanciful to imagine that every warrior, or even a majority of them, sat around and composed skaldic verse on the side. They were living in rough times in an even rougher environment. Only the skills necessary for survival would have seeped into a majority of their people. Of course that means that jarls, thanes and other "nobles" (I hate using the word to describe Norse leaders) would have the leisure and wealth to spend time on artistic pursuits. This is the same in every society. Look around at modern day America. Only the upper middle class and upper class have the money to live comfortably and actively pursue non essential things. Everyone else is stuck working 9-5 with only a few precious hours of free time.

Another issue I see is the idea that any number of the Nordic peoples believing that they were predestined to die in one manner or another. If that were the case then you wouldn't see instances in the Eddas and other sources of old warriors throwing themselves on their own weapons to try to get a spot in Valhalla. If they truly believed that they were predestined then that would completely eliminate the logic behind going to Valhalla through suicide. That would also destroy the incentive of young men and women to pick up swords and fight for their tribe. A much more probable answer would be to say that they genuinely believed that courage in the face of death and dying for a reason (their kin) would be compensated for in the afterlife. Of course now we have to answer just how important Valhalla was for the ancient tribes.

The Germanic faith (or at least what we know of it) doesn't really give a negative alternative to those people who lived and died wickedly. The heroes go to Valhalla and then everyone else goes to Hel to live with their ancestors. That's not exactly a punishment so how many Norsemen and women felt a need to really go out and die with a sword in their hand. In my opinion you can live a perfectly honorable and productive life and then still be rewarded in the afterlife by being reunited with your family. On the other hand the idea of dying horribly in battle even if it were for the best of causes only to be sent up to a hall to wait for your chance to die again in a battle that your general (Odin) knows he will lose is a bit bleak. I guess the incentive would be riding out the apocalypse with a big bang but still. However you can't expect Odin and Freya to pick non-militaristic souls to go to Valhalla and Folkvangr. After all the souls that go here have to fight Ragnarok. It'd be illogical for them to pick the doctor who cured cancer or the Nobel Peace Prize winner to pick up a weapon and duel a giant in the last days.

Anyways the concept of a good death exists in nearly every culture. In Christian Europe it was dying a martyr/crusader. In Hellenic Greece it was dying after achieving lasting fame. In Rome it was dying for the state. A good death in modern America is dying wealthy and leaving a good inheritance to your children. Some of us reject this and join the military out of genuine patriotism. I applaud these people as heroes and fully expect them to go to Valhalla or Folkvangr.

I used to bother my seidkona friend about the Norse afterlife. She simply told me that there is no point worrying about something that only the Gods can decide. She rejected the idea of a predestined death and accepted the fact that we all die and only the Gods truly know what happens after that. The kind of acceptance and humility is extremely admirable in my opinion. What's more brave throwing yourself on your spear or accepting death when he comes?

[Optimistic discord]

Re: Dying well?

At best the Eddas are a picturesque view of Icelandic/Nordic society. It's really fanciful to imagine that every warrior, or even a majority of them, sat around and composed skaldic verse on the side. They were living in rough times in an even rougher environment. Only the skills necessary for survival would have seeped into a majority of their people. Of course that means that jarls, thanes and other "nobles" (I hate using the word to describe Norse leaders) would have the leisure and wealth to spend time on artistic pursuits. This is the same in every society. Look around at modern day America. Only the upper middle class and upper class have the money to live comfortably and actively pursue non essential things. Everyone else is stuck working 9-5 with only a few precious hours of free time.

Another issue I see is the idea that any number of the Nordic peoples believing that they were predestined to die in one manner or another. If that were the case then you wouldn't see instances in the Eddas and other sources of old warriors throwing themselves on their own weapons to try to get a spot in Valhalla. If they truly believed that they were predestined then that would completely eliminate the logic behind going to Valhalla through suicide. That would also destroy the incentive of young men and women to pick up swords and fight for their tribe. A much more probable answer would be to say that they genuinely believed that courage in the face of death and dying for a reason (their kin) would be compensated for in the afterlife. Of course now we have to answer just how important Valhalla was for the ancient tribes.

The Germanic faith (or at least what we know of it) doesn't really give a negative alternative to those people who lived and died wickedly. The heroes go to Valhalla and then everyone else goes to Hel to live with their ancestors. That's not exactly a punishment so how many Norsemen and women felt a need to really go out and die with a sword in their hand. In my opinion you can live a perfectly honorable and productive life and then still be rewarded in the afterlife by being reunited with your family. On the other hand the idea of dying horribly in battle even if it were for the best of causes only to be sent up to a hall to wait for your chance to die again in a battle that your general (Odin) knows he will lose is a bit bleak. I guess the incentive would be riding out the apocalypse with a big bang but still. However you can't expect Odin and Freya to pick non-militaristic souls to go to Valhalla and Folkvangr. After all the souls that go here have to fight Ragnarok. It'd be illogical for them to pick the doctor who cured cancer or the Nobel Peace Prize winner to pick up a weapon and duel a giant in the last days.

Anyways the concept of a good death exists in nearly every culture. In Christian Europe it was dying a martyr/crusader. In Hellenic Greece it was dying after achieving lasting fame. In Rome it was dying for the state. A good death in modern America is dying wealthy and leaving a good inheritance to your children. Some of us reject this and join the military out of genuine patriotism. I applaud these people as heroes and fully expect them to go to Valhalla or Folkvangr.

I used to bother my seidkona friend about the Norse afterlife. She simply told me that there is no point worrying about something that only the Gods can decide. She rejected the idea of a predestined death and accepted the fact that we all die and only the Gods truly know what happens after that. The kind of acceptance and humility is extremely admirable in my opinion. What's more brave throwing yourself on your spear or accepting death when he comes?

Good post!

I think it also helps to remember that we only have fragmented accounts of history and cultures and as Claude says, it tends to be mainly the "richer" elements of societies that get remembers..such as the beliefs of crazy warrior cults
There are accounts of people being cremated/buried in mounds/burn on ships AFTER dying from old age/disease/accidents so that they could enter Valhalla.
In its simplest form I tend to think that most people assumed they died and went off to another place which was probably a lot like this world (hence why you could take items).

[Rae'ya]

Re: Dying well?

I'm a bit late to this one, but I agree with a lot of what Claude said above.

The Norse system of afterlife belief is actually pretty complicated, and yet many modern Heathens and Northern Tradition folk tend to focus on Valhalla to the exclusion of everything else.

I'm not sure if anyone else feels this way, but does dying well matter anymore? I want nothing more than to die a worthy death and earn a seat in Valhalla at Odin's table, but I feel that since we (Americans) are not a warrior/militaristic society this is could be difficult. I feel compelled to be in the military, but I'm not comfortable fighting and dying for this country. I don't mean to sound morbid and like I want to kill and be killed in battle, but this was important to my ancestors, so I feel that it should be to me too.

So I guess I'm asking if anyone thinks its still important today? I know that the world isn't in the dark ages and barbaric anymore, but still.

I'm pretty new to actually being a Heathen, I have a lot to learn, but I know in my blood it's right. Any input is appreciated.

Someone else linked the thread where we were all recently discussing this, but I'll put forward again that personally, I think only those who die in battle and have proven their worth as a soldier go to Valhalla to join the ranks of the Einherjar. The purpose of that particular afterlife option is to fight each other eternally and then serve as ground troops at Ragnarok.

It was important to SOME of our ancestors, but not all of them. It's just one section of the culture of our ancestors that gets glorified into the epitome of Heathen virtue. But it wasn't the reality of day to day life as an average blue-collar Scandinavian peasant.

As for dying well... that's a cultural thing. I'm with the posters who talked about living well rather than dying well. I'm not sure that living a life of a shallow, egotistical, bigoted, malicious person can just be wiped away by dying a 'noble' death in defense of your country. And I don't think that dying in bed of old age will diminish the worth of a life that was full of love, generosity, hospitality and bringing up your family. I also don't think that you have to do great deeds or win amazing prizes in order to live well. Honesty and integrity are important to me. Not flashy awards and glorious carnage.

[Kviskrar]

[Hafthor]

Re: Dying well?

I'm not sure if anyone else feels this way, but does dying well matter anymore? I want nothing more than to die a worthy death and earn a seat in Valhalla at Odin's table, but I feel that since we (Americans) are not a warrior/militaristic society this is could be difficult. I feel compelled to be in the military, but I'm not comfortable fighting and dying for this country. I don't mean to sound morbid and like I want to kill and be killed in battle, but this was important to my ancestors, so I feel that it should be to me too.

So I guess I'm asking if anyone thinks its still important today? I know that the world isn't in the dark ages and barbaric anymore, but still.

I'm pretty new to actually being a Heathen, I have a lot to learn, but I know in my blood it's right. Any input is appreciated.

I was in the Navy for 12 years as a CB "Seabee" for you civvies. It's not about dying for ones country...it's about dying to save the life of the man/men next to you.

We die so that others may live.

Valhalla, to my understand is only regarded for warriors and of all the slain and only half of them get to sit with Odin.