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  • #31
    Re: Androgynous/Homosexual Deities?

    Originally posted by Riothamus12 View Post
    Reverence alone does not make something a deity. They have existed long before the souls of mortals entered into bodies of flesh, they have never not existed, nor will they ever cease to be. Being deities is their nature. They were not "made" Gods and Goddesses. No one can make something a true deity except perhaps the holy ones themselves. Jormungand is the enemy of one of them, he is an enemy of the sacred balance, of harmony itself. The enemy of the Gods is also the enemy of the human race and all life. The Aesir are but a few among the ranks of the holiest of holies and I stand with them as I do with all others in this world and the next.

    Also I think, in all sources I can remember, that Jormungand is referred to as "he". Of course, the gender of Jormungand has not been a great concern to me, so who knows?
    At this point this turns in to a I am Asa, reconstructionist and I am right. We both have stated we are not Asatru or reconstructionist and we have both been plain about UPG. At this point it becomes a pissing match and there is no reason to keep going on over the same material. We don't agree, it happens.

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    • #32
      Re: Androgynous/Homosexual Deities?

      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
      Dionysis was male until he was castrated, thus changing his gendered status.
      What are you talking about? His incarnation as Zagreus that was torn apart?

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Androgynous/Homosexual Deities?

        Originally posted by Riothamus12 View Post
        Reverence alone does not make something a deity. They have existed long before the souls of mortals entered into bodies of flesh, they have never not existed, nor will they ever cease to be. Being deities is their nature. They were not "made" Gods and Goddesses. No one can make something a true deity except perhaps the holy ones themselves. Jormungand is the enemy of one of them, he is an enemy of the sacred balance, of harmony itself. The enemy of the Gods is also the enemy of the human race and all life. The Aesir are but a few among the ranks of the holiest of holies and I stand with them as I do with all others in this world and the next.

        Also I think, in all sources I can remember, that Jormungand is referred to as "he". Of course, the gender of Jormungand has not been a great concern to me, so who knows?
        Can we spin this into a seperate thread, I am interested to see more of your views on this, as many faiths have gods being killed/created. And many faiths also have mortals becoming immortal.
        I may not agree with some of what you have said but I am curious to read more.

        Jormungandr is describe as one of Loki's sons so I would assume he is male. An enemy of the sacred balance? That is certainly "an" interpretation of his role, though not one I am used to.

        ------
        The question of gender-roles is an interesting one, Many cultures had a third-gender in antiquity (and still do) so it is not a modern concept.
        Priests,seers,oracles were often a third gender and gods of many faiths had sexual lifestyles that bounced all over the place.

        - - - Updated - - -

        Some more deities for the mix:
        Abrao
        Aku
        Awo
        Mwari
        Agdistis

        Are a few.

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        • #34
          Re: Androgynous/Homosexual Deities?

          Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
          The Ancient Greeks saw Dionysus as a castrated male. I'm not disputing that.
          I'll dispute that. Are you sure you're not confusing Dionysus with Attis? (they do have some similar traits) I don't remember Dionysus ever being castrated.

          If you're included castrated gods as genderqueer then include Attis. Though there is probably some other things that would tie him into this. He was a fertility god, consort of the goddess Cybele. He's an archetypal dying god where his self mutilation, death and rebirth represent the seasons and the crops. Attis's birth is pretty interesting as are the different variations of his death. His priests were all also eunuchs.
          “They moaned and squealed, and pressed their snouts to the earth. We are sorry, we are sorry.
          Sorry you were caught, I said. Sorry that you thought I was weak, but you were wrong.”
          -Madeline Miller, Circe

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Androgynous/Homosexual Deities?

            Phanes-androgynous
            Zagreus-male
            Dionysus-male

            The thing about the Dionysus myth that gets Him labelled as the LGBT savior god has nothing to do with castration. When He was young and hiding from Hera He was often dressed up as a female. Another thing that lends to His feminine qualities is that the majority of His representations show Him as a beautiful beardless youth which when compared to macho deities like Zeus or Poseidon made Him seem far less than manly.

            The third as aspect that gives Dionysus this sort of air comes form the myths. On His way to the Underworld Dionysus found Himself in need of some directions. He asked this man to lead Him to the entrance and in return He would grant him one favor. The man asked Dionysus to have sex with him upon His return. Dionysus agreed and was shown the entrance to Hades. Unfortunately the man died after Dionysus reemerged from the Underworld. Dionysus immortalized him in a constellation if I remember correctly.

            Dionysus was never castrated but some of the gods He is associated with were. Chief among them are Osiris and Attis.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Androgynous/Homosexual Deities?

              Originally posted by Ula View Post
              This particular story is not UPG it's from chapter 42 of the Prose Edda book Gylfaginning. Understand you don't like the position she's taken but no reason to rude about it. The conversation should and can be civil.
              While I don't have the referenced book the story of Loki changing into a mare was to used a means to an end. In that instance to lure away the stallion that was aiding in the construction of a wall which would have allowed the giant to take Freja, Odin's wife. By doing so Loki directly causes the task to fail and Freja is not taken as the price. So sorry just because one uses a hammer for a task doesn't make them a carpenter. Just because one uses a sexual ruse to cause a task to fail does not make them bi-sexual or anything similar as it was a means to an end to achieve a desired result.

              But like I said any story can be reworked to make it support ones agenda or position. Insisting upon Loki and a sexual slant removes all the fact he did it to stop or undermine a bet that was going to be lost otherwise.
              I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Androgynous/Homosexual Deities?

                Originally posted by Riothamus12 View Post
                I BELIEVE THAT Reverence alone does not make something a deity. I BELIEVE THAT They have existed long before the souls of mortals entered into bodies of flesh, they have never not existed, nor will they ever cease to be. I BELIEVE THAT Being deities is their nature. I BELIEVE THAT They were not "made" Gods and Goddesses. I BELIEVE THAT No one can make something a true deity except perhaps the holy ones themselves.

                Personally, I completely and utterly disagree, but I fixed it for you, so that it finally makes for an accurate statement. Which is my problem with a good effing chunk of posts in this thread.

                Because really, the only accurate statement one can make about the gods is that the ultimate nature of god is ultimately unknowable…except to the individual’s perception of and experience with god (and this includes the option that deities do not exist at all or that they all exist simultaneously). There is no such thing as an objective event, fact or state(ment) that one can make about a completely abstract idea that is entirely subjective. Because of that, there isn't a single god that can be measured, weighed, observed, photographed, or otherwise independently verified in a way that has ever garnered consensus. Additionally, different cultures (historical and modern) and individuals explain god in culturally relative and personally meaningful ways without any universal agreement or cohesion.

                IMO, making an unqualified definitive statement about the nature of deities smacks of some pretty big hubris.

                Which pretty much goes for this whole thread...and leads me to an official banket nasty-gram.

                MOD NOTE TO EVERYONE: SHARE YOUR OPINION FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE AND STOP BITCHING ABOUT HOW OTHERS VIEW THINGS. IF YOU FEEL THE NEED TO DISAGREE, DO SO RESPECTFULLY AND WITH THE HUMILITY THAT THIS IS YOUR FREAKING OPINION. HECK, SUPPORT YOUR OPINION ALL YOU WANT, BUT SNIDE REMARKS AND CATTY RETORTS ARE NOT WELCOME, AND IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING NICE TO SAY, STFU.

                Don't make me lock this shit because you all don't want to play polite.

                And now, I'm going to follow my own advice and bow out...because I have very little to say regarding the last page or so that is nice.
                “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

                “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
                ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

                "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
                ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

                "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

                Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                sigpic

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                • #38
                  Re: Androgynous/Homosexual Deities?

                  There's actually a great deal of queerness in the Norse pantheon:

                  While Freyr's sexuality is a matter of debate (my personal opinion is that it's much less of an issue for deities than it is for humans) in the Gesta Danorum, Tacitus mentions priests of Freyr who cross-dress and make "effeminate" gestures. They're so shocking that they even shock other Heathens at the time, and remember, these are priests, these are individuals who do religious things for a living.

                  There are a number of goddesses who take on "masculine" roles, like Skadi, Gefion, and Freyja. There's also some speculation that Njord may have originally been intersex or a goddess at some point, but this might be an outdated theory. In any case, there's definitely a tendency among modern Heathens to see Njord as, shall we say, "passive", especially when compared to deities like Odin. This in no way implies that he actually is, I'm just saying that the attitude is definitely there.

                  There's also some interesting connotations regarding the relationship between Frigga and Fulla. Fulla is said to be Frigga's sister, but it's interesting because not only is Fulla tasked with keeping Frigga's treasure box (which is a very important job) but also her shoes. In Old Norse, "shoe" is slang for "vagina", which leads one to wonder what the exact nature of their relationship is.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Androgynous/Homosexual Deities?

                    Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                    While I don't have the referenced book the story of Loki changing into a mare was to used a means to an end. In that instance to lure away the stallion that was aiding in the construction of a wall which would have allowed the giant to take Freja, Odin's wife. By doing so Loki directly causes the task to fail and Freja is not taken as the price. So sorry just because one uses a hammer for a task doesn't make them a carpenter. Just because one uses a sexual ruse to cause a task to fail does not make them bi-sexual or anything similar as it was a means to an end to achieve a desired result.

                    But like I said any story can be reworked to make it support ones agenda or position. Insisting upon Loki and a sexual slant removes all the fact he did it to stop or undermine a bet that was going to be lost otherwise.
                    My faith is not an agenda. Get the hell over it.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Androgynous/Homosexual Deities?

                      I know that Frey has already been *ahem* debated, but in answer to the OP, while Frey does not himself fill any "Ergi" roll according to available evidence(as Odin is accused of by Loki), there is some proof that his priests followed non-gender-traditional practices. In the Saxo Grammaticus, for example, the author complains about how at least some of them are cross-dressing and effeminate.

                      I'm also rather curious about what some of the people on here have to say about the Icelandic hero Grettir, who in the poem Grettisfærsla is said to have done it with "maidens and widows, everyone's wives, farmers' sons, deans and courtiers, abbots and abbesses, cows and calves, indeed with near all living creatures," (Sørenson 18). I think it's a bit of a mistake to assume that because one has issues with some concepts of sexual identity, that one's ancestors shared your exact stance. The concept of rape being unacceptable is a rather recent development I'm happy has occurred, and that's just one small change.

                      If one is interested in LGBT friendly Lwa, I would add Erzuli Danto and Erzuli Freda to the list of beings to research as well.

                      ETA: Looks like you beat me to a response on Frey, Lokabrenna
                      Great Grandmother's Kitchen

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                      • #41
                        Re: Androgynous/Homosexual Deities?

                        Originally posted by Ula View Post
                        My faith is not an agenda. Get the hell over it.
                        Perhaps you missed the mod warning. This is the last time it'll be issued. If anyone in this thread has a personal problem with anyone else, handle it in private. Quarrel elsewhere.
                        “The world is big and I want to have a good look at it before it gets dark.” – John Muir

                        Mostly art.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Androgynous/Homosexual Deities?

                          Perhaps staff should say something to the people who started the shit in the first place. Especially the one who does this shit almost every topic. That is staffs job right?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Androgynous/Homosexual Deities?

                            This is dead. Enough warnings have been given.
                            "It is not simply enough to know the light…a Jedi must feel the tension between the two sides of the Force…in himself and in the universe."
                            ―Thon

                            "When to the Force you truly give yourself, all you do expresses the truth of who you are,"

                            Yoda

                            Yoda told stories, and ate, and cried, and laughed: and the Padawans saw that life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                            Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                            "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                            John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                            "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                            Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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                            • #44
                              Re: Androgynous/Homosexual Deities?

                              Originally posted by Ula View Post
                              Perhaps staff should say something to the people who started the shit in the first place. Especially the one who does this shit almost every topic. That is staffs job right?
                              Actually, once a warning was given (by the way, the first time I even read this thread, thank the gods), the only person that continued to participate in a way that was obnoxious, was you. Period. End of story.

                              Which is the reason why I don't single people out in a first warning--it takes two to tango, or in this case, three or four...and really, the only problem at the point that I posted was that some people were taking dissenting views personally and turning what should have been a respectful debate or disagreement into an arguement. People can have discussions without agreement without turning it into a snarkfest...


                              Since we are well past first warning though, I'll point fingers. And since you seem to want to make this a public issue, I will be happy to oblige you. I was willing to overlook the first comment after my warning, that perhaps you had missed it...but the second comment, makes it fairly obvious. Thank you for proving my point, in why I DON'T single people out in a first warning. Everyone ELSE took the hint...

                              Or, as taken from the PF Rules (and I'm red texting the pertinent parts):

                              A Note from Staff Members Regarding Moderators & Moderation:

                              This is a privately owned, privately operated, privately funded (partially via donations) forum. It is not a free speech zone, and its not a democracy...and its not unique among forums for that. We allow most speech, and we are largely tolerant of dissenting views, but we don't tolerate bad manners. We've been doing this for over a decade, and we've come to a format that works for this community, so we enforce it. Yeah, it doesn't work for everyone that visits it. Not everyone fits in here, but there are lots of forums around if that is the case--its nothing personal if this is not the internet home for you.

                              Foremost, the mods and admin are members here, we come here for OUR enjoyment, and we don't get paid to do this. And actually, for those of us that PAID to purchase this forum from its previous owner, we have a bit more of an interest into making this a place that we enjoy coming to. As such, we curtail most off topic conversation, we don't allow trolling, spam, flaming, etc. We also don't allow racism, sexism, etc. And, we severely put down personal attacks. If someone starts something with other members, more often than not, we end up finishing it. Just so you know the difference between us chillin, and us doing our job, it will be in green if it is written by a mod, or in red if it is written by an admin.

                              Mod decisions are final. Period. Final. Exclamation point. Even if another mod disagrees, that disagreement is handled in private. We don't play good cop-bad cop or mom vs dad here. The other mods and admin will back up a mod or admin decision, period...and so will most of the members, even if they PM a private disagreement to a mod or admin over the matter. If you choose to argue with a mod in a thread, take a disagreement with a mod (or another member) to another thread, or otherwise spread around hate and discontent, you won't last long as a member.

                              DEBATE is encouraged (provided it is in a debate thread), DISAGREEMENT is encouraged (provided its not engaged in disrespectfully or with gross asshattery), but ARGUING just for the sake of argument or to have the last word or as a form of bullying is not. Arguing with a mod, or blatantly ignoring them will get a thread closed, period. If it becomes a personal habit, its one of the few things that will get you banned.
                              Last edited by thalassa; 27 Sep 2013, 04:12.
                              “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

                              “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
                              ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

                              "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
                              ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

                              "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

                              Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                              sigpic

                              Comment

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