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    Animal Testing

    So here's a topic that usually has so many pro's and con's people don't even know what to think about it anymore. Animal Testing. Is it right? Is it wrong? Who else are we going to test Medication on? Is testing Meds on them ok but Beauty Products not ok? *gets out the thinking hat*
    I personally never really liked the idea of this, but at the same time...How else would we test things, hardcore?! As in we want this stuff so we should test it on our own?!
    (for "safety" reasons lol I marked this as a Debate because I can see the opinions going waaayyy far apart on this one..lets keep it friendlyz)

    #2
    Re: Animal Testing

    It's wrong and ineffective.
    I am a woman in a mans body and I hate being in the wrong body. I want out of this body. It's like a prison cell.

    I used to be known as AdamKane in these parts.

    Hail Satan.

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      #3
      Re: Animal Testing

      Originally posted by AdamKane View Post
      It's wrong and ineffective.
      I think you may definitely have a point with the ineffectiveness. I always wondered how exactly we were sure that something would work on humans as well as it did on a rabbit...I mean kinda not the same "species" lol.
      So do you think we should test on humans? And what if the "human test objects" die or get really ill from something that was tested on them? Who would sign up for this? Suicidal people? Criminals being forced to do this? All this testing seems to be one of those necessary evils, but what is the right way to do so?!

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        #4
        Re: Animal Testing

        They seem pretty effective to me. I take a lot of meds. Statins, blood thinners, diabetic meds, etc. I'm thankful for the testing. I can't imagine how long we would have had to wait if we were not allowed to test on animals.
        Satan is my spirit animal

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          #5
          Re: Animal Testing

          For meds, rats have fairly close DNA structures to humans. Most of what is toxic to humans is also toxic to rats. You have to scale dosages and stuff, but it works well. I don't like it, but I don't really know that we have a choice. It seems the most effective way to test modern medicine. Like Medusa, I'm also not willing to throw that out. I'm only alive because of modern medicine. If I didn't have epinephrine or anything like that, I would have died of anaphylactic shock years ago.

          I'm against cosmetic testing on animals, mostly because it's really wasteful and useless. The whole cosmetic industry is for profit alone. At this point, we have all the hygiene products we need and cosmetic formulas are about as good as they can get. Anything new that's developed is there for product diversification alone, or worse, as a solution to a "problem" that marketing executives created so that we buy more stuff (ie white teeth...don't even get me started on this one). We don't need more formulas of lipstick or shampoo. Testing these on animals doesn't advance society or make our lives better.

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            #6
            Re: Animal Testing

            Either way, it'll be redundant in the coming decades as cloning and genetic engineering becomes more routine and refined. Why test on animals when you can grow non-sentient humans in vats?
            Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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              #7
              Re: Animal Testing

              Originally posted by Medusa View Post
              They seem pretty effective to me. I take a lot of meds. Statins, blood thinners, diabetic meds, etc. I'm thankful for the testing. I can't imagine how long we would have had to wait if we were not allowed to test on animals.
              I completely agree with you and DanieMarie when it comes to medication. This is something that I am also very grateful for, and without animal testing I also do not think we would be this far advanced in the medical field.

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              Originally posted by DanieMarie View Post
              I'm against cosmetic testing on animals, mostly because it's really wasteful and useless. The whole cosmetic industry is for profit alone. At this point, we have all the hygiene products we need and cosmetic formulas are about as good as they can get. Anything new that's developed is there for product diversification alone, or worse, as a solution to a "problem" that marketing executives created so that we buy more stuff (ie white teeth...don't even get me started on this one). We don't need more formulas of lipstick or shampoo. Testing these on animals doesn't advance society or make our lives better.
              agreed! the beauty department is a waste, I don't feel like it is necessary to put animals through this kind of torture.

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              Originally posted by Denarius View Post
              Either way, it'll be redundant in the coming decades as cloning and genetic engineering becomes more routine and refined. Why test on animals when you can grow non-sentient humans in vats?
              haha good point. But I'm not sure how to feel about that either. "Let's grow humans in vats and then use them as labrats/organ donors/whatever" <-- sounds kind of wrong idk ?!

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                #8
                Re: Animal Testing

                I'm pretty against it, and don't buy any products that are owned by companies with any link to animal testing, so it can be fairly limiting.

                But I do see the benefit in medicine. There's not really anything I can do there. Even most pills have gelatine in them, which isn't vegetarian, but often I don't have a choice.
                ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

                RIP

                I have never been across the way
                Seen the desert and the birds
                You cut your hair short
                Like a shush to an insult
                The world had been yelling
                Since the day you were born
                Revolting with anger
                While it smiled like it was cute
                That everything was shit.

                - J. Wylder

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                  #9
                  Re: Animal Testing

                  Originally posted by Lilium of the Valley View Post
                  I think you may definitely have a point with the ineffectiveness. I always wondered how exactly we were sure that something would work on humans as well as it did on a rabbit...I mean kinda not the same "species" lol.
                  So do you think we should test on humans? And what if the "human test objects" die or get really ill from something that was tested on them? Who would sign up for this? Suicidal people? Criminals being forced to do this? All this testing seems to be one of those necessary evils, but what is the right way to do so?!

                  Actually, there are a number of model organisms that have been selected or bred to be similar to humans in different ways. For example, the chinchilla has an ear most similar to that of a human. Several years ago, we actually adopted chinchillas that had had ear surgery to test a new technique to be used for fighter pilots that would minimize complications. The chinchillas weren't harmed, and at the end of the study, they were adoped out. Medication and toxicology studies are something else though...

                  I have problems with the idea of testing *anything* on chimps or animals of a similar intelligence. But I don't have a problem with testing medication or in toxicology studies on rats or mice (and its not because of the cuteness factor, but a number of traits that make them better suited for lab studies)...I don't necessairly like it, but I'm not morally objected to it. Because really, I'd rather test something on a lab rat than it be used without testing on my kid's school or some village somewhere (and, I might add, several thousand new chemicals are invented world-wide, annually, and are not tested)...and lab rats are cost effective, quicker than human studies, and fairly accurate...at least in the field of toxicology.

                  I think what their needs to be, is oversight. Ethical oversight, and procedural oversight.
                  Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                    #10
                    Re: Animal Testing

                    I feel there is a vast difference between testing medications on animals for human use and doing the same with beauty products. Medications yes but not beauty products, Rats and mice no problem.
                    I have been taking part in experamentle cancer drug programs(the next step in the process)as well as some trial programs with surgerys. Back in the 1970's the government volunteered me for testing new vaccines for the swine flu and no they didn't ask just take off your shirt and get in line. Hopefully at some point computers can be used to do the testing instead of using animals, but untill then like it or not this is going to be a much needed part of medical research. If you have doubts about the nessesity of this type of testing I suggest you go to your nearest children's hospital and walk through some of the wards. Without the new medications that have been developed many would not be going home and sadly because of the lack of the right drugs some will not.
                    Gargoyles watch over me...I can hear them snicker in the dark.


                    Pull the operating handle (which protrudes from the right side of the receiver) smartly to the rear and release it.

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                      #11
                      Re: Animal Testing

                      Much like Denarius, I'm excited about the advances we're making with stem cells and organ printing. Eventually we'll be able to print whole human bodies that can be used. Computer modeling (and the ability to have huge resevoirs of resources via cloud computing and groupsourcing) is making many advances in medicine possible as well.

                      I personally don't believe in animal testing in the way that it's currently done - especially for psychiatric and psycho-effective medications and therapies. Animals behave completely differently when in their natural environments than they do in the closely confined housing of most labs. For instance, the 'Rat Park' experiment placed rats in a more open housing area, with enrichment, variety and socialization - and showed that they were nowhere near as likely to self-medicate with morphine as rats in traditional isolated lab cages.

                      I can understand the need to insure medications, cosmetics, food and other products are safe and effective. We also have a justifiable fear of tasting the 'fruit of the poison tree', so we don't do things like the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment anymore, or encourage modern Mendeles. Because humans tend to place themselves above other species, animal testing is the result. A lot of people do volunteer in exchange for free medical care - my mother did back in the 80s when she had lung cancer and they were looking to test out new chemotherapy drugs... but there's never enough volunteers and most new products don't have the financial backing to afford to pay a lot of people to try something out.
                      The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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                        #12
                        Re: Animal Testing

                        Sooo many things to address in this I hardly know where to start, so I am simply going to start at a random point, work my way through it all and hope I remember everything I want to say.

                        First off concerning animal testing for comestics I am dead against and always have been. The EU passed a law earlier this year that made it illegal to test new cosmetic products on animals, and with serious fines involved if the law is breached. Wish we could make that a global law.
                        Secondly if we want new forms of medications from various illnesses and diseases, both better ways to cure old ones as well as treatment for the new ones that keep cropping up, animal testing will be a necessity for at least the foreseeable future. I doubt anyone is going to allow human cloning on the scale necessary for this and besides creating non-sentient humans is fairly much one the science fiction stage right now.
                        As for using computer modelling it can only take us so far, because a computer generated model can only take factors into account that are known and programmed in, so it may not reveal serious side effects of a drug.
                        Finally animal testing isn't necessarily about preferring one species above another but often have to do with lifespan, effects that may take years, even decades to reveal themselves in humans will possibly reveal themselves in a matter of weeks or months in rats. This is the reason why the first stage of testing is done on mice, rats and similar species, short lifespan.

                        And as for lack of similarity, well that's why you can't just test something on rats and then say it's safe for humans, but on the other hand something that is poisonous or cancerous to a rat is almost inevitably bound to have the same effect on a human. So some inferences can be drawn.

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                        Originally posted by perzephone View Post
                        I personally don't believe in animal testing in the way that it's currently done - especially for psychiatric and psycho-effective medications and therapies. Animals behave completely differently when in their natural environments than they do in the closely confined housing of most labs. For instance, the 'Rat Park' experiment placed rats in a more open housing area, with enrichment, variety and socialization - and showed that they were nowhere near as likely to self-medicate with morphine as rats in traditional isolated lab cages.

                        Actually that result is transferable to humans. Put some with a mental illness in a more natural and pleasant environment - that means many plants, good neighbourhood, clean house, things like that - and you can cut down the medication they need significantly or remove it all together. I think it is in Sweden they have implement gardening as a "medical" subscription for people with depression with great success. Make you think, doesn't it?
                        Warning: The above post may contain traces of sarcasm.

                        An apostrophe is the difference between a business that knows its shit, and a business that knows it's shit.

                        "Why is every object we don't understand always called a thing?" (McCoy. Star Trek: The Moive Picture)

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                          #13
                          Re: Animal Testing

                          Go for meds, no go for cosmetics, but then, I don't much care about cosmetics...
                          Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                            #14
                            Re: Animal Testing

                            I am absolutely against animal testing with cosmetics. I don't by any cosmetics from businesses that use animal testing or are affiliated with it, hence why I by almost all of my products from Lush.

                            As for medical I have never really given it too much thought. I don't really like the idea of it but unfortunately it's the way things are. Unless humans want to start volunteering themselves and I do not see that going over well in the world. I feel that people find it more acceptable to do medical testing on animals because they convince themselves that they are not as aware of it as a human would be, I certainly don't think everyone is like that but I wonder what made the first person to decide on animal testing deem it an acceptable practice. Animals have just as much heart and soul as humans.

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                              #15
                              Re: Animal Testing

                              Test on serial killers, pedophiles, rapists etc. We certainly don't have a shortage of them on the planet.

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                              “Ask the experimenters why they experiment on animals and the answer is: 'Because animals are like us.' “Ask the experimenters why it is morally okay to experiment on animals, and the answer is: 'Because the animals are not like us.'
                              “Animal experimentation rests on a logical contradiction.”
                              —Prof. Charles R. Magel

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                              Additionally... nature provides all the medicine I need to survive. I was cleared of having to go on a heart/lung transplant list (my specialists are still scratching their heads wondering how this happened) using only nature to cure the supposed incurable.
                              My posts are generally sent from my cell fone. Please excuse my brevity, and spelling/grammar errors.

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