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    #16
    Re: All-knowing God/Free Will Vs Predestination?

    Originally posted by Dumuzi View Post
    The problem with the Epicurean Paradox is that it defines god as only either all powerful and/or all good. It totally disregards other attributes or assumptions made about god. It's a logic fallacy, a straw man argument. For example, it doesn't take into account god's wisdom, reward and punishment, justice, testing and so on.
    Actually, I think the implication is there.

    A god that uses the lives of others without impunity as the methodology to "teach" a lesson or "test" a person is an ass. There's no justice, reward, or punishment that is worth letting babies die of cholera if one is, in actuality (and in addition to other qualities), all-powerful AND wholly good. There's no justice, reward, or punishment that is worth letting a serial killer torture teen age girls to death if one is, in actuality (and in addition to other qualities), all-powerful AND wholly good. There's no justice, reward, or punishment that is worth letting slavery exist AND be defended in by your own representative text if one is, in actuality (and in addition to other qualities), all-powerful AND wholly good. There's no justice, reward, or punishment that is worth letting small children be assaulted by your own priesthood if one is, in actuality (and in addition to other qualities), all-powerful AND wholly good. Allowing these things to happen is not "free will" for the victims. Any god that claims to be ALL powerful and wholly good, and then favors (apparently) one town or city or person at the cost of others, is a deciever.
    Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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      #17
      Re: All-knowing God/Free Will Vs Predestination?

      Originally posted by thalassa View Post
      Actually, I think the implication is there.
      It's not there because it implies evil acts go unpunished, on the one hand. And that whatever was taken unjustly from someone isn't returned to them (if not more). And that's just one aspect of it. It paints a picture of a god that is unable to correct wrongs that we humans are incapable of making better. It is a very narrow and limited view of a god, and then that view is used to argue against god.

      It is of course understood that those that use it don't believe those other things about god, fair enough. But you can't use that argument about someone else's idea of god without taking into consideration every other thing that person believes about god.
      [4:82]

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        #18
        Re: All-knowing God/Free Will Vs Predestination?

        Originally posted by thalassa View Post
        Actually, I think the implication is there.

        A god that uses the lives of others without impunity as the methodology to "teach" a lesson or "test" a person is an ass. There's no justice, reward, or punishment that is worth letting babies die of cholera if one is, in actuality (and in addition to other qualities), all-powerful AND wholly good. There's no justice, reward, or punishment that is worth letting a serial killer torture teen age girls to death if one is, in actuality (and in addition to other qualities), all-powerful AND wholly good. There's no justice, reward, or punishment that is worth letting slavery exist AND be defended in by your own representative text if one is, in actuality (and in addition to other qualities), all-powerful AND wholly good. There's no justice, reward, or punishment that is worth letting small children be assaulted by your own priesthood if one is, in actuality (and in addition to other qualities), all-powerful AND wholly good. Allowing these things to happen is not "free will" for the victims. Any god that claims to be ALL powerful and wholly good, and then favors (apparently) one town or city or person at the cost of others, is a deciever.
        Right up until someone adds eternal punishments* to the mix, I don't actually view these as game-breakers. An eternal Power is operating on a completely different sense of time than we are and has more than our short mortal lives (presuming both an eternal deity and an immortal soul, it's not like God would be lacking in time, he's planning on interacting with you for a duration that makes the life of stars seem short as a mayfly) to redress imbalances within so even the greatest traumas that are available at mortal hands or through natural causes can still be healed in a comparative eyeblink. A being that knows 1) it can mend whatever happens given time and
        2) it literally has eternity to work with
        probably doesn't view the trials of mortal life to be as daunting as we do

        *So, eternal punishments. I despise this part of every theology that includes one alongside an omnipotent. Justice requires that punishments balance out the crime in some fashion. For eternal punishment to be just, the harm one does better d*** well be eternal and for a number of Abrahamic faiths, humanity is either completely and utterly incapable of dealing out eternal harm or only capable of dealing out eternal harm because the LoH likes to play by absurd rules. However, the premise of eternal punishment for transitory crimes remains and that I find to be inherently unjust.
        life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

        Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

        "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

        John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

        "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

        Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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          #19
          Re: All-knowing God/Free Will Vs Predestination?

          Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
          Right up until someone adds eternal punishments* to the mix, I don't actually view these as game-breakers. An eternal Power is operating on a completely different sense of time than we are and has more than our short mortal lives (presuming both an eternal deity and an immortal soul, it's not like God would be lacking in time, he's planning on interacting with you for a duration that makes the life of stars seem short as a mayfly) to redress imbalances within so even the greatest traumas that are available at mortal hands or through natural causes can still be healed in a comparative eyeblink. A being that knows 1) it can mend whatever happens given time and
          2) it literally has eternity to work with
          probably doesn't view the trials of mortal life to be as daunting as we do

          *So, eternal punishments. I despise this part of every theology that includes one alongside an omnipotent. Justice requires that punishments balance out the crime in some fashion. For eternal punishment to be just, the harm one does better d*** well be eternal and for a number of Abrahamic faiths, humanity is either completely and utterly incapable of dealing out eternal harm or only capable of dealing out eternal harm because the LoH likes to play by absurd rules. However, the premise of eternal punishment for transitory crimes remains and that I find to be inherently unjust.
          I personally wonder how much of the concept of eternal punishment comes from the original theology, and how much stems from the point at which those religions became institutions and were being used to control and exploit the populace - everlasting torment is a pretty good motivator.

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            #20
            Re: All-knowing God/Free Will Vs Predestination?

            Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
            A being that knows 1) it can mend whatever happens given time and
            2) it literally has eternity to work with
            probably doesn't view the trials of mortal life to be as daunting as we do
            My problem with this is that if (in this particular deity's case) man is created in god's image, then such a god has either made a mistake in assuming that we can take the eternal view of things, or doesn't care...in which case, using one (or one thousand) short, fleeting, mortal life (lives) to make a point (whether that point be a test, judgement, etc) to another (other) short, fleeting, mortal life (lives) is favoritism at best (and still decietful in a religion that implies that "everyone is welcome/can be saved, etc"). Which (IMO) still makes such a deity not worthy of me. I give everyone a sort of civil respect, anything beyond that needs to be earned...double for a deity. Being eternal and benevolent and all powerful, I think should make one capable of being held to exceptionality...and that includes HUMAN ideas of exceptionality. Now, a god that makes none of these claims is a whole different kettle of fish...

            Which is getting off topic, I admit.
            Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
            sigpic

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              #21
              Re: All-knowing God/Free Will Vs Predestination?

              Originally posted by Aeran View Post
              I personally wonder how much of the concept of eternal punishment comes from the original theology, and how much stems from the point at which those religions became institutions and were being used to control and exploit the populace - everlasting torment is a pretty good motivator.
              May also have come from adopting/butchering Zoroastrian theology. Zoroastrian theology does come complete with a rather lengthy stay in hell for those who screw up too badly. Mazda's end goal is to eradicate hell and (under certain interpretations that I've seen and prefer) reclaim all within it. Of course one of the alternate positions is eradicate hell and the method of purification used doesn't so much prepare those inside hell for entry into paradise as erase them. I think the former view is the majority opinion but I'm nowhere near a scholar on Zoroastrian religion.

              Originally posted by thalassa View Post
              My problem with this is that if (in this particular deity's case) man is created in god's image, then such a god has either made a mistake in assuming that we can take the eternal view of things, or doesn't care...in which case, using one (or one thousand) short, fleeting, mortal life (lives) to make a point (whether that point be a test, judgement, etc) to another (other) short, fleeting, mortal life (lives) is favoritism at best (and still decietful in a religion that implies that "everyone is welcome/can be saved, etc"). Which (IMO) still makes such a deity not worthy of me. I give everyone a sort of civil respect, anything beyond that needs to be earned...double for a deity. Being eternal and benevolent and all powerful, I think should make one capable of being held to exceptionality...and that includes HUMAN ideas of exceptionality. Now, a god that makes none of these claims is a whole different kettle of fish...

              Which is getting off topic, I admit.
              Not really arguing that the LoH is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent for a variety of reasons. The first two traits because I don't know of any good way for any side to make headway debating them and the third because I wouldn't be using the old question of "why does suffering exist?" and the side I'd take sort of varies with my mood. Mostly I just dislike the Epicurean paradox.
              life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

              Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

              "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

              John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

              "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

              Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


              Comment


                #22
                Re: All-knowing God/Free Will Vs Predestination?

                The problem with describing imaginary and/or incomprehensible entities is that you can give them any qualities you want, or fabricate any explanation for their "actions" that you want, sit back in your comfy chair, and say "Ah, that explains it," when nothing real has actually been explained or described.

                But it does make one feel clever, and it's hard for others to argue with the products of somebody's imagination.
                Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                  #23
                  Re: All-knowing God/Free Will Vs Predestination?

                  Originally posted by Aeran View Post
                  Which part are you struggling with? I think I stated my point fairly clearly.
                  I'm sorry. I was on medication last night... essentially, I was drunk posting... and it seems that I was being a jerk, and argumentative. Sorry for that.
                  "Don't ever miss a good opportunity to shut up." - Harvey Davis "Gramps"

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                    #24
                    Re: All-knowing God/Free Will Vs Predestination?

                    Originally posted by Chessa View Post
                    So, back in my Christian days, this question used to keep me up late and actually stressed me out way more than it should have. So now I"m still curious:

                    If humans have free will, they should be able to choose whether they go to Heaven or Hell through their beliefs and actions.
                    But if God is all-knowing, he will already know where people will go. He will have known since before he created the world.
                    Sort of takes the choice out of free will, doesn't it?

                    Your thoughts, anyone?
                    Yes God is all knowing and he knows what choice you will make. But it's your choice to make and he lets you make it. That is free will.
                    Just because God knows what you're going to do before you do it doesn't make it predestined.

                    Predestiny is something happening regardless of which choice you make. You are predestined to die for example.

                    An analogy would be an architect of a building directs the flow of people through his design. The architect can make you have to walk through the bedroom to get to the ensuite by the placement of one room in relation to another. Has he removed your free will in the process? How about your ability to exercise free will?

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