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    All-knowing God/Free Will Vs Predestination?

    So, back in my Christian days, this question used to keep me up late and actually stressed me out way more than it should have. So now I"m still curious:

    If humans have free will, they should be able to choose whether they go to Heaven or Hell through their beliefs and actions.
    But if God is all-knowing, he will already know where people will go. He will have known since before he created the world.
    Sort of takes the choice out of free will, doesn't it?

    Your thoughts, anyone?

    #2
    Re: All-knowing God/Free Will Vs Predestination?

    Depends on your definition of 'all knowing' and your wider understanding of the nature of God and reality.

    Also interesting if you consider it alongside various multi-verse type theories. If there are an infinite array of endless realities depending on the choices we make, then it's possible that God knows what each of them consists of and the chance of each of them existing, but from within your own experience you still have effective free choice.

    This, imo, is similar to the whole 'can God make a rock so heavy he can't lift it,' question, in that it isn't a question that points out problems with theological/philosophical/metaphysical concepts so much as it does the limits of trying to convey those concepts through the medium of human language.

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      #3
      Re: All-knowing God/Free Will Vs Predestination?

      Knowing isn't the same as controlling. That is the difference.

      Metaphor? You go to an African ritual day as an observer, researching for a university or some such, and see that the people are about to sacrifice a goat. Now the rules that you have set in place for yourself forbid you from interfering, even if you would prefer the goat to live. So you do what is required of you and watch it happen, you observe, even though you could have tried to interfere and change the outcome. Even though you knew what would happen if you continued to stay back.

      Or you're a researcher for Big Cat Diary and have found a lost cub. The rules forbid you to interfere even though you know the cub will die without your help, but could live if you gave it.

      Abrahamic tradition says that God created this world and assigned himself to the role of observer. He may know what's going to happen, but he isn't allowed to interfere. The fact that he knew from the beginning only means that everything must be worthwhile somehow... I refuse to believe we are his source of entertainment. Of course... I view the God of Abraham as a greedy bastard who only encompasses a small portion of the ultimate divine so...
      We are what we are. Nothing more, nothing less. There is good and evil among every kind of people. It's the evil among us who rule now. -Anne Bishop, Daughter of the Blood

      I wondered if he could ever understand that it was a blessing, not a sin, to be graced with more than one love.
      It could be complicated; of course it could be complicated. And it opened one up to the possibility of more pain and loss.
      Still, it was a blessing I would never relinquish. Love, genuine love, was always a cause for joy.
      -Jacqueline Carey, Naamah's Curse

      Service to your fellows is the root of peace.

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        #4
        Re: All-knowing God/Free Will Vs Predestination?

        Wow, for a moment there I thought we were going to get into a discussion of Free Will vs Predestination as I know it.. that is that all are called to God, but it is up to the individual to respond (which I think is where you are coming from) vs God chooses only some who cannot help but submit, and the rest he lets go to Hell.

        I had this big reply ready.. luckily re-read your question.

        Originally posted by Shahaku View Post
        Knowing isn't the same as controlling. That is the difference.
        That's a wonderfully succinct response to the question actually asked! lol

        Sometimes I think we all get so hung up on language and philosophy we go around and around in circles chasing things that are peripheral. I have heard it said that each verse of scripture is like a diamond. Depending on which way you hold it up to the light, it can reflect a different colour. There can be many different ways to interpret the same scripture, and this is how debate of free will vs predestination began. However, we cannot let the need to be right dominate over the knowledge of our limited language and the vastness of the nature of the divine.

        I believe there is one great spirit that is in and through all things and transcends it. The existence of many gods is a product of the evolution of human thought and the attempts to articulate experiences with the divine within the context of culture and time. This range of diversity is necessary in order to articulate the vastness of the divine and the human experience with it. What is 'absolutely true' for one, is not necessarily so for another.

        So, for me, I feel absolutely called to Christ in my heart. But I know there are others who feel the same way about their paths. I feel this is what is the 'the choice.' We are all called to something higher than ourselves or to be better selves, but how we get there is our choice. The important thing is that we keep asking and keep searching and articulating those experiences. And I think it's this quest that Jesus was articulating when he said "Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you." I think this is an invitation to seek the divine and in doing so, find your reward.
        Last edited by Azvanna; 13 Dec 2013, 22:17.

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          #5
          Re: All-knowing God/Free Will Vs Predestination?

          Well, going off of the Christian example, apparently not everything was set in stone -- therefore, an omnipotent god could still offer you the chance to come to the faith as opposed to not creating you at all. Also, it was said that god's mind could be changed if you petitioned him with prayer, so that always led me to believe that there wasn't a bunch of timelines in the sky that he was monitoring with permanent marker until their fixed ends.
          No one tells the wind which way to blow.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: All-knowing God/Free Will Vs Predestination?

            Reminds me of the Epicurean Paradox:

            Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
            Then he is not omnipotent.
            Is he able, but not willing?
            Then he is malevolent.
            Is he both able and willing?
            Then whence cometh evil?
            Is he neither able nor willing?
            Then why call him God?
            "Don't ever miss a good opportunity to shut up." - Harvey Davis "Gramps"

            Comment


              #7
              Re: All-knowing God/Free Will Vs Predestination?

              Originally posted by ThorsSon View Post
              Reminds me of the Epicurean Paradox:

              Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
              Then he is not omnipotent.
              Is he able, but not willing?
              Then he is malevolent.
              Is he both able and willing?
              Then whence cometh evil?
              Is he neither able nor willing?
              Then why call him God?
              Ok, I clearly need to pick your brain more. This is awesome and I have never heard it before. I must view my ignorance as a blessing for more knowledge and education, because I LOVE this.
              No one tells the wind which way to blow.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: All-knowing God/Free Will Vs Predestination?

                The problem with the Epicurean Paradox is that it defines god as only either all powerful and/or all good. It totally disregards other attributes or assumptions made about god. It's a logic fallacy, a straw man argument. For example, it doesn't take into account god's wisdom, reward and punishment, justice, testing and so on.
                [4:82]

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: All-knowing God/Free Will Vs Predestination?

                  Originally posted by Dumuzi View Post
                  The problem with the Epicurean Paradox is that it defines god as only either all powerful and/or all good. It totally disregards other attributes or assumptions made about god. It's a logic fallacy, a straw man argument. For example, it doesn't take into account god's wisdom, reward and punishment, justice, testing and so on.
                  No... It addresses the claim that God (or god(s)) is both omnipotent AND omnibenevolent (all-knowing AND perfectly-good).

                  If a deity claims to be perfectly-good (omnibenevolent) and all knowing (omniscient), then he is not all-powerful (omnipotent).
                  "Don't ever miss a good opportunity to shut up." - Harvey Davis "Gramps"

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: All-knowing God/Free Will Vs Predestination?

                    Originally posted by ThorsSon View Post
                    No... It addresses the claim that God (or god(s)) is both omnipotent AND omnibenevolent (all-knowing AND perfectly-good).

                    If a deity claims to be perfectly-good (omnibenevolent) and all knowing (omniscient), then he is not all-powerful (omnipotent).
                    That's what I said, it addresses the claim that god is only omnipotent and all good. It totally disregards other assumptions or attributes of said god, that easily explain how evil might exist with the presence of an all powerful all good god.
                    [4:82]

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: All-knowing God/Free Will Vs Predestination?

                      I say 'both', you say 'only'...
                      "Don't ever miss a good opportunity to shut up." - Harvey Davis "Gramps"

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: All-knowing God/Free Will Vs Predestination?

                        Originally posted by ThorsSon View Post
                        I say 'both', you say 'only'...
                        and I say tomato :-P

                        My second sentence addresses this.

                        It totally disregards other assumptions or attributes of said god, that easily explain how evil might exist with the presence of an all powerful all good god.
                        [4:82]

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: All-knowing God/Free Will Vs Predestination?

                          If a deity claims to be perfectly-good (omnibenevolent) and all knowing (omniscient), then he is not all-powerful (omnipotent).
                          But that assumes, as I think Dumuzi is pointing out, that God possesses the same conception of morality as a human. Given that we don't understand the universe in it's entirety and the ultimate purpose of existence (if indeed there is any) it's impossible to make claims about what is or isn't ultimately good for people in the scheme of things. To a child, the parent is enforcing suffering through discipline and punishment when, in reality, the parent knows that they are doing so for the long term good of the child, which outweighs their short term unhappiness. If, for example, the purpose of life is in fact some process of learning and spiritual development, as many spiritual traditions claim, then a paradisaical world where we can relax in perfect contentment and bliss without having to exert any effort or make any difficult choices, would hardly be conducive of that kind of experience or growth.

                          In short, you can't evaluate the morality of an action until you understand the situation in which it is taking place, and our understanding of the universe is very limited. And of course this is all predicated on a certain, very basic, conception of God which is certainly not universal.

                          Honestly, I thought the Epicurean Paradox was silly, even when I was an atheist. Straw Man fallacy to the max.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: All-knowing God/Free Will Vs Predestination?

                            Originally posted by Aeran View Post
                            But that assumes, as I think Dumuzi is pointing out, that God possesses the same conception of morality as a human. Given that we don't understand the universe in it's entirety and the ultimate purpose of existence (if indeed there is any) it's impossible to make claims about what is or isn't ultimately good for people in the scheme of things. To a child, the parent is enforcing suffering through discipline and punishment when, in reality, the parent knows that they are doing so for the long term good of the child, which outweighs their short term unhappiness. If, for example, the purpose of life is in fact some process of learning and spiritual development, as many spiritual traditions claim, then a paradisaical world where we can relax in perfect contentment and bliss without having to exert any effort or make any difficult choices, would hardly be conducive of that kind of experience or growth.

                            In short, you can't evaluate the morality of an action until you understand the situation in which it is taking place, and our understanding of the universe is very limited. And of course this is all predicated on a certain, very basic, conception of God which is certainly not universal.

                            Honestly, I thought the Epicurean Paradox was silly, even when I was an atheist. Straw Man fallacy to the max.
                            huh?

                            I'm lost. I understood all of the words, but, when you sting them together in that order... I can't make sense of them.
                            Last edited by ThorsSon; 16 Dec 2013, 01:06.
                            "Don't ever miss a good opportunity to shut up." - Harvey Davis "Gramps"

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: All-knowing God/Free Will Vs Predestination?

                              Which part are you struggling with? I think I stated my point fairly clearly.

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