Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

[Alienist]

Some have depicted the Serpent as Satan and others as the Sumerian god Enki. I haven't a clue on what the Serpent is or why it's the only animal that talks, which makes me think the whole Serpent thing is a metaphor, but Yaweh specifically said that if Adam and Even ate the fruit they would die and the Serpent said "That's bogus. You won't die, you'll become like God." They did the fruit and neither of them died. Adam and Eve ate the fruit and they had the knowledge of good and evil. Yahweh figured this out and placed a flaming sword around the Tree of Life and banished Adam and Eve and said that humans have become like god and guarded the Tree of Life from preventing them from living forever. So why is Yaweh praised for lying, saying they'd die if they ate the fruit which wasn't true, and banishing two humans for becoming like god (Guess God isn't omnipotent, otherwise he wouldn't be so worried about them becoming like God) while the Serpent is demonized for telling the truth and liberating humanity by giving them the knowledge of good and evil though?

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

Isn't it obvious?

Whose book is it in?

[Ophidia]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

It also depends on the version of the Bible you read as to the nature of the serpent... the knowledge gained/innocence lost... and God.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

Just because I've seen this line of thought often enough to get bored of it:

The knowledge provided by the Tree manifested in shame at being nude before the LoH. The LoH had not to date expressed so much as a hint that nudity was displeasing but eating from the Tree told Adam and Eve that it was wrong. If we're going to re-interpret Genesis then it's just as easy to say they were told not to eat from the tree because it offered deception and the appearance of knowledge instead of actual Truth. Under those conditions, condemning the being that led them down such a false path is arguably (depends on who and what the Serpent was) appropriate.

Heck let's go further than that, the majority of people that I've seen on this board tend to look at Evil as a societal construct instead of an objective reality. If Good and Evil are not objective realities then eating the fruit imposed a specific (and at the time, unnecessary) societal construct on Adam and Eve without providing a mature understanding of that construct and this is a good thing?

Adam and Eve were already capable of reason, the Serpent used reason to convince them to eat of the Tree.
Adam and Ever already had Free Will or they would not have been capable of defying a divine command to begin with.
The Tree gave a morality that was not necessary for their environment and involved a sense of shame about their bodies that is destructive now according to recent posts by people on this board.

Where's the profit here again?

Without mentioning the actual reaction of the LoH, this matter is at best a gray area regarding the Serpent's advice. At worst, he talked Eve into eating figurative poison.

[Alienist]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

But it doesn't deny the fact that Yahweh clearly lied saying they'd die if they ate it and the only reason he said that was to hope Adam and Even wouldn't eat it. Any knowledge isn't bad and having the knowledge of good and evil would be good wouldn't it, seeing how they'd have a better chance of telling what is right and what is wrong? It also shows Yahweh is not omniscient, otherwise he wouldn't ask Adam if he ate the tree and also it shows he's not omnipresent seeing how he would have been there and know Adam and Eve at from the tree. He of course is also not omnipotent as he asks for things to be built, desires worshippers, has people assemble armies and so forth.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

If he was profoundly concerned that they never eat of the Tree then he'd just have stuck a guardian on it. Since he did precisely that not all that long after, we know he's capable of it.

having the knowledge of good and evil would be good wouldn't it, seeing how they'd have a better chance of telling what is right and what is wrong?

For knowledge of good and evil to be useful,
1) Good and Evil need to exist.
2) The knowledge in question needs to be remotely accurate.
Are you positing that Good and Evil exist and that what Adam and Eve thought to be evil after eating of the Tree was evil?

It also shows Yahweh is not omniscient, otherwise he wouldn't ask Adam if he ate the tree and also it shows he's not omnipresent seeing how he would have been there and know Adam and Eve at from the tree.

You've never had occasion to ask a question you know the answer to? Really?
It's occasionally nice to know whether someone is going to own up to their actions or try and lie to your face.

I'm ignoring the question of omnipotence since it's irrelevant to the story of Genesis.

[Corvus]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

If you see the Serpent as a metaphor, why not see the death part as a metaphor? When reading Genesis I assumed it was a metaphor since they obviously didn't die. What did die was their life in the garden, their innocence and safety. When they gained knowledge of good and evil from the tree they were no longer pure and so their innocence died. Knowledge of good and evil gives the potential for evil and thought over the concepts of good and evil. Where God is the universal good (supposedly) knowledge of good and evil allowed Adam and Eve to question the nature of God.

It's my opinion that the serpent did not lie. The serpent said to eat of the fruit was to become like god with the knowledge of right and wrong. However to do so is to invite suffering by knowing evil for what it is, which is symbolized by the suffering Adam and Eve endure after being ousted from Eden. To take a view which paints God is a more positive light, perhaps God wanted to avoid suffering in his creations because his own suffering stemmed from his knowledge.

It's also my opinion evil exists only when you understand something to be evil. For the human race evil could not exist until they knew of evil because they had no way to measure good or bad

[Claude]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

But it doesn't deny the fact that Yahweh clearly lied saying they'd die if they ate it and the only reason he said that was to hope Adam and Even wouldn't eat it. Any knowledge isn't bad and having the knowledge of good and evil would be good wouldn't it, seeing how they'd have a better chance of telling what is right and what is wrong?

I'd like to just interject here for a second.

The way I was taught was that humans were immortal and innocent in the Garden. After the Fall of Man humans were made dirty and mortal. Under this mode of thought, which seems to be very popular in the Christian circles I've run in, Yahweh did not lie.

Knowledge can be an extremely destructive weapon because it shatters our illusions and makes us feel exposed. (Adam and Eve clothing themselves before God) Our minds are so limited that we create our own ideas of reality based on limited perception. When we are opened up to the bigger picture we often act erratically. Think of how many people research and reject certain tenets of Buddhism because they pose a greater truth that conflicts with the individual's limited truth. (Anatta) It's not because these things are complicated to understand but because accepting them forces the individual to reevaluate their idea of reality.

Another, more scientific example, would be evolution. Nearly everyone accepts evolution as a tool of the divine or the answer to the miracle of life. Others still hold out that it's a hoax. If you talk to them, they will defend their stance on faith without reason. This proves that they fear what it means if they accept evolution as fact. They believe that accepting it will destroy God and leave them empty.

[Alienist]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

If you see the Serpent as a metaphor, why not see the death part as a metaphor? When reading Genesis I assumed it was a metaphor since they obviously didn't die. What did die was their life in the garden, their innocence and safety. When they gained knowledge of good and evil from the tree they were no longer pure and so their innocence died. Knowledge of good and evil gives the potential for evil and thought over the concepts of good and evil. Where God is the universal good (supposedly) knowledge of good and evil allowed Adam and Eve to question the nature of God.

It's my opinion that the serpent did not lie. The serpent said to eat of the fruit was to become like god with the knowledge of right and wrong. However to do so is to invite suffering by knowing evil for what it is, which is symbolized by the suffering Adam and Eve endure after being ousted from Eden. To take a view which paints God is a more positive light, perhaps God wanted to avoid suffering in his creations because his own suffering stemmed from his knowledge.

It's also my opinion evil exists only when you understand something to be evil. For the human race evil could not exist until they knew of evil because they had no way to measure good or bad

If that was the case why did he plant the trees in the first place if he didn't want anyone to eat it? Unless he himself was eating the fruit as was the other deities and only he and the other gods and goddesses can eat from it. I always thought Yahweh was one of many deities, where they would eat from the trees like the tree of life to live longer, like the golden apples in Norse mythology where they would eat to replenish their life. Since Yahweh is known to be jealous, perhaps he didn't want more competition or feared humanities potential to overthrow him like Zeus once did.

[Medusa]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

I don't think he lied. No one said Adam and Eve were destined to live and die. He created them, but with no end date. Suddenly they are 'aware' and now they must go through the cycle of life and death. So no one lied.

[Corvus]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

If that was the case why did he plant the trees in the first place if he didn't want anyone to eat it? Unless he himself was eating the fruit as was the other deities and only he and the other gods and goddesses can eat from it. I always thought Yahweh was one of many deities, where they would eat from the trees like the tree of life to live longer, like the golden apples in Norse mythology where they would eat to replenish their life. Since Yahweh is known to be jealous, perhaps he didn't want more competition or feared humanities potential to overthrow him like Zeus once did.

In Abrahamic myths all other gods are false gods aside from God himself. There are parallels yes between many myths regarding divine food (Amrita, Ambrosia, Soma, ect) however there is no indication that God was eating the fruit himself. We cannot know what a deity thinks when doing things but perhaps the tree existed as a device of free will. For the humans to truly have free will there has to be a way for them to make significant choices. Maybe the tree existed with the potential to give knowledge and remove innocence as a way to allow humanity free will during that time in the garden. Aside from this what choices did Adam and Eve really make? They didn't want to leave, There's no evidence God asked anything of them. It's possible the tree existed as a mechanism to test free will, to create a scenario where free will becomes significant.

It's possible (like many things in holy texts) that the tree is also a metaphor. When Adam and Eve ate of the fruit it may have been a poetic way to say that they gradually came to understand good and evil. The tree may not actually exist in the strictest sense.

Maybe the tree is essential in God's plan for humanity. Since he is all knowing God expected humanity to fail him with the tree but the knowledge humanity gains allows them to have greater influence with their free will. With knowledge of good and evil individuals are tested. From Adam and Eve's failure, humanity was forced to grow and adapt. If Adam and Eve had not gained knowledge there could be no saint or sinner.

Perhaps the tree was essential for the formation of the universe. Humanity was ignorant of good and evil but there existed other creatures with free will. The Angels had their rebellion and they knew of knowledge. The knowledge of good and evil could be seen as a symbol of this rebellion. Knowledge begets new knowledge. Where the angels rebelled, the tree was made and the serpent tempted humanity to know of rebellion. In Christianity evil is essentially rebellion from the laws of God, and goodness is living in accordance with God's law. In this way the tree is a symbol of rebellion who's origins are not from God but from the very act of rebellion by his angels.

- - - Updated - - -

I would also say that yes, God was afraid of humanity eating from the tree. However he was not afraid they would become stronger than him but that they would know of evil and bring evil into humanity. By committing evil one hurts God grievously.

[Alienist]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

I have heard Adam and Eve would go through the cycle of life and death since they were banished. I heard that this is all to test humanity. I'm not sure what defines a "false god" A person pretending to be a god a or god that is showing you the wrong path? Yahweh has a consort implying that he was around other deities. Yahweh might have been part of a pantheon but chose to leave whatever pantheon he was a part of and established an area (Israel) for himself and those who worship him though.

He may not have wanted evil to enter into humanity but however he was worried that they would eat the tree of life and heavily guarded it. I can understand he might not want evil to enter into humanity but why is Yahweh worried of them living forever? It sort of implied he was afraid they'd be immortal and overthrow him as well.

[Corvus]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

There was no death or suffering in the paradise that is the garden. After leaving Eve was cursed with pregnancy and they dealt with sickness and pain and death. It's not so much that they were immortal (though they technically would be), as death and pain did not exist while they were innocent. If you look back on my posts I made the point that to have knowledge is to know suffering. With the loss of their innocence they could no longer be safe. The fruit from the tree strips them of their innocence and subsequently their invulnerability.

- - - Updated - - -

The tree itself was never guarded. Eden was guarded after they ate of the fruit to prevent them from re-entering paradise. There would be no point in any human eating from the tree again since both Adam and Eve already had.

I don't get what you're saying about God being worried about them living forever. He didn't want them to eat the fruit and the fruit is what took their invulnerability. He was afraid because they had the capacity to do evil after eating the fruit and the tools to see him objectively. The closest god can come to being overthrown would be to have humanity think him evil and do evil because they think god to be evil.

[Alienist]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

I know he didn't guard the tree of knowledge of good and evil but he did guard the tree of life. He had said that humans became like god, just as the serpent said to them which was true. He was worried enough to guard the tree of life to prevent them from eating it. Strange as he was willing to guard the tree of life after they were banished but didn't bother to guard both trees so neither of them would have been able to eat it, but as you said it wouldn't because of carelessness as he is supposed to "test our will".

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

There's a lot of logic chopping going on here, and that's OK. To make sense of religion generally that straight lines be twisted.

However, if someone would like to try straight line thinking, I, personally, prefer the Gnostic interpretation reported by Elaine Pagels (Gnostic scholar. She worked on the translations from the Nag Hammadi library) in Adam, Eve, and the Serpent.

In it, the creator god (Yahweh) has imprisoned 'spirit in flesh' by hiding it's true God-nature. The serpent comes to free it, by leading it to knowledge. In this interpretation, the serpent is the forerunner of Jesus - not the devil.