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Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

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    #16
    Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

    I'd just like to clarify a few things here, because the Bible is actually fairly explicit on most of the points being debated here...

    1) There are TWO 'special' trees in the Garden of Eden. The Tree of Life, and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad:

    Genesis 2:9 "And from the ground the Lord God caused to grow every three that was pleasing to the sight and good for food, with the Tree of Life in the middle of the garden, and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad."

    2) God said that you will die immediately upon eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge:

    Genesis 2:16-17 "And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you are free to eat; but as for the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad, you must not eat of it; for as soon as you eat of it, you shall die.""

    3) God did not throw them out of the Garden of Eden because they disobeyed him. Adam's punishment was to have to till the earth for himself and work for his meals "until you return to the ground". Eve was cursed to suffer pain in childbirth and the serpent was cursed to have to crawl on it's belly and eat dirt. The latter two were also cursed that their children should forevermore hate and fear each other. I can quote that passage but it's fairly long.

    4) They were only thrown out of Eden because God was afraid:

    Genesis 3:22-23 "And the Lord God said, "Now that man has become like one of us, knowing good and bad, what if he should stretch out his hand and take also from the Tree of Life and eat, and live forever!" So the Lord God banished him from the garden of Eden, to till the soil from which he was taken.

    5) God then places a guard on "the way to Tree of Life", not the Tree of Knowledge.

    6) The only mention about the nature of the serpent is that it is the most shrewd of creatures. Any speculation as to the identity of the serpent is just that... speculation. Presumably it was not in the form of a serpent at that point, because it is not until it is cursed that it is forced to crawl on it's belly and bite at the ankles of human children. I was always a bit confused about the eating dirt part though... snakes obviously don't eat dirt. lol.

    It's pretty clear from the actual words of the Bible (technically, these are quoted from my Tanakh, but my King James and Good News Bibles agree almost to the letter) that Adam and Eve are NOT already immortal, but that eating from the Tree of Life would make them immortal, a possibility which YHVH fears. God's punishment speech to Adam suggests that Adam would have eventually 'returned to the dust' regardless of his eating of the Tree of Knowledge.

    Unfortunately there is no qualifier of 'good' or 'bad' and that is possibly an oversimplification due to translation. However. I don't have an original Hebrew Bible so I can't say what the original language of the Bible says. I do know that my Tanakh was translated from a Hebrew text rather than a Greek translation (which is what many English translations were made from). There is much talk in the passages of 'having their eyes opened', 'knowing good from bad', 'becoming like one of the divine beings' and 'becoming like one of us'. Otherwise the only mention is that before they ate, they were naked but felt no shame, and after they ate, they realised they were naked and wanted to cover up.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Having said all that, I realise that I should probably say what my actual opinion on the matter is.

    I'm a animist and a hard polytheist, and to me, YHVH is a deity like any other, who exists in his own little corner of the Otherworlds and who has the ability to exert some influence here in this world. I tend to look at the Bible the exact same way I look at the Poetic Edda or any other primary mythological source. So my personal opinion is as follows...

    YHVH created his little corner of the Otherworlds from scratch... 'his world' so to speak. In there was the Garden of Eden, and he made a few people to kick start his own personal race of devotees, and he stuck them in the Garden. He made their life cushy and idyllic and handed them everything on a silver platter. He told them not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge, presumably because he didn't want them to be like the other gods and know good from bad. They disobeyed him and he was upset about that, so he punished them and made them work for their supper. Then he got scared that they would also go and eat from the Tree of Life, which would make them immortal AND know good from bad. Obviously this wasn't part of his plan for his personal race of devotees and so he kicked them out of the Garden as a preventative measure. Thus they went from existing in YHVH's Otherworld to having to eke out a living here in Thisworld.

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      #17
      Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

      From my understanding and what I was taught through mormon belief god wanted them to exercise their freedom of choice and to eat the fruit. Without eating the fruit they would not have the ability to make good and bad decisions, or repopulate. He kicked them out of the garden so they could repopulate, if they hadn't been kicked out the earth would never have been populated and gods work would never been done. Its confusing to me but thats how my dad always explained it and sunday school.

      The serpant in the bible represents satan, it in essance is the way satan prefered to appear to people, humorisly in the book of mormon the serpant is godly and represents god the complete opposite.

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        #18
        Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

        Originally posted by Sondst View Post
        From my understanding and what I was taught through mormon belief god wanted them to exercise their freedom of choice and to eat the fruit. Without eating the fruit they would not have the ability to make good and bad decisions, or repopulate. He kicked them out of the garden so they could repopulate, if they hadn't been kicked out the earth would never have been populated and gods work would never been done. Its confusing to me but thats how my dad always explained it and sunday school.
        I wonder why the Bible says (pretty clearly) that they were punished for doing it, if that's what god wanted them to do anyway...
        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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          #19
          Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

          and thats one of the many things that confused me. I never understand exactly how this all was supposed to make sense. Every other chrisitan says they were punished but the mormon faith teaches that it was kinda set up like a punishment but in reality he wanted them to do wrong. Its confusing.

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            #20
            Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

            Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
            I wonder why the Bible says (pretty clearly) that they were punished for doing it, if that's what god wanted them to do anyway...
            Maybe because that particular god was a mean old bugger...???
            www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


            Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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              #21
              Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

              Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
              Maybe because that particular god was a mean old bugger...???

              That's basically my feeling, but I don't want to put ideas in anybody's head, especially when they can arrive at the same conclusion by applying simple logic...

              Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                #22
                Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

                I used to think the whole story was just a metaphor for reaching puberty, and a lesson of how "once a flower blooms it begins to die", and the knowledge of the cycle of life, etc.
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                Can you hear me, Major Tom? I think I love you.

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                  #23
                  Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

                  Maybe the entire value of ambiguous religious texts is that they allow the reader to see in them whatever that reader is predisposed to see, kid of like an ink blot.
                  Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                    #24
                    Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

                    Personally, I would like to start this thread over and discuss first who or what the serpent actually is/was. Because to simply take it all at face value i.e. serpent = devil/satan is really restricting it all much too far. There are other explanations, such as the serpent representing a deposed former deity - there were plenty of them around surely, since the old testament isn't actually all that old, not by human standards anyway
                    www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                    Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                      #25
                      Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

                      Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
                      Just because I've seen this line of thought often enough to get bored of it:

                      The knowledge provided by the Tree manifested in shame at being nude before the LoH. The LoH had not to date expressed so much as a hint that nudity was displeasing but eating from the Tree told Adam and Eve that it was wrong. If we're going to re-interpret Genesis then it's just as easy to say they were told not to eat from the tree because it offered deception and the appearance of knowledge instead of actual Truth. Under those conditions, condemning the being that led them down such a false path is arguably (depends on who and what the Serpent was) appropriate.

                      Heck let's go further than that, the majority of people that I've seen on this board tend to look at Evil as a societal construct instead of an objective reality. If Good and Evil are not objective realities then eating the fruit imposed a specific (and at the time, unnecessary) societal construct on Adam and Eve without providing a mature understanding of that construct and this is a good thing?

                      Adam and Eve were already capable of reason, the Serpent used reason to convince them to eat of the Tree.
                      Adam and Ever already had Free Will or they would not have been capable of defying a divine command to begin with.
                      The Tree gave a morality that was not necessary for their environment and involved a sense of shame about their bodies that is destructive now according to recent posts by people on this board.

                      Where's the profit here again?

                      Without mentioning the actual reaction of the LoH, this matter is at best a gray area regarding the Serpent's advice. At worst, he talked Eve into eating figurative poison.
                      I think this about says most of what I would add to this. Except that also its pretty likely the snake in the garden was literally just a snake, and there are other animals that talk in the bible.

                      Anyways, I don't think I want to touch the fist-bumping about YHWH being a meany face with a 1000000000000 foot pole.
                      hey look, I have a book! And look I have a second one too!

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                        #26
                        Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

                        Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
                        Personally, I would like to start this thread over and discuss first who or what the serpent actually is/was. Because to simply take it all at face value i.e. serpent = devil/satan is really restricting it all much too far. There are other explanations, such as the serpent representing a deposed former deity - there were plenty of them around surely, since the old testament isn't actually all that old, not by human standards anyway
                        In the Pages book I mentioned earlier, the author actually runs through a series of different interpretations that have been used for the snake story. One is the deposed deity interpretation. I like that one, but I'm not a historian so I can't claim any kind of knowledge or particular wisdom, so in my imagination -

                        The snake is the teacher of wisdom, for which it uses it's forked tongue.

                        The wisdom it teaches is the knowledge of choice - that there are always at least two choices one can make, two forks.

                        It doesn't matter which one you pick, the snake doesn't even care; it just wants to teach that there are always choices, some are equally interesting, and you can pick any one of them..

                        But whichever one one picks, it affect everything that comes after.
                        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                          #27
                          Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

                          Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                          In the Pages book I mentioned earlier, the author actually runs through a series of different interpretations that have been used for the snake story. One is the deposed deity interpretation. I like that one, but I'm not a historian so I can't claim any kind of knowledge or particular wisdom, so in my imagination -

                          The snake is the teacher of wisdom, for which it uses it's forked tongue.

                          The wisdom it teaches is the knowledge of choice - that there are always at least two choices one can make, two forks.

                          It doesn't matter which one you pick, the snake doesn't even care; it just wants to teach that there are always choices, some are equally interesting, and you can pick any one of them..

                          But whichever one one picks, it affect everything that comes after.
                          Love your final line - because this is so true of life generally, isn't it? That even when we are free to choose we are never free of the consequences of that choice.
                          www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                          Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                            #28
                            Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

                            Because no one actually *wants* to know the "truth".
                            Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                              #29
                              Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

                              I happen to believe in a literal interpretation of the scriptures unless it is obviously in a metaphorical context.

                              So to me the events in the garden happened just as described. The serpent was indeed Satan in the physical form of a serpent.

                              How do I then address this OP?

                              Well things were different back then. The serpent apparently had legs back then as part of the punishment was to crawl along in the dust. Adam and Eve also had a different physical form.
                              It is clear from the later scriptures that mankind in our present form can not stand in the presence of God and physically survive, and yet Adam and Eve apparently hung out with god all the time.

                              Another thing to consider is the foundation for this OP. Why was the serpent punished for telling the truth. Well did the serpent actually tell the truth. Legalistically yes, but in reality, no. If you're confused with that concept then spend a day in court :-)


                              There are three promises the serpent made:
                              1. You will have knowledge.
                              2. You will be like a god.
                              3. You will not die.

                              1. Remember that Adam and Eve had full access to God and could ask Him anything. They already had access to any and all knowledge they ever desired. the serpent was promising something they already had, but represented it in a way as to mislead. In fact, the result is that Adam and Eve were cut off from all knowledge.

                              2. Adam and Eve were immortal beings, free from sickness and disease, and in constant connection with the creator of the universe. The serpent used the word "like" to imply that Adam and Eve would in some form or function reflect god-ness. Since Adam and Eve were created in the likeness of God, then even after the fall, they were "like" a god. But were not gods. Again, Adam and Eve gave up a state of existence very similar to God assuming that they would become God and this is not what the serpent actually said.

                              3. Before the tree of knowledge, death did not exist. then after they did indeed die. In fact, God said to Adam and Eve that they would die the very same day of partaking of the fruit. It too me a while to reconcile this one as it really does appear that God may have lied (which according to my faith is not possible) until I remembered that the scriptures state that to God, 1000 years is a day and a day 1000 years. Adam lived for 930 years after expulsion, which falls within the 1000 year time window for a day.

                              Now, I believe that the serpent really did lie and was subsequently punished. There was no real truth in any of the promises he made, but distortions and misleading arguments. Yes, there was technical truth there, but the scriptures are clear that God doesn't buy technicalities like that and truth must be both sincere and accurate.

                              - - - Updated - - -

                              I would like to elaborate on this discussion of choice.
                              Adam and Eve has choice right from the get go. The trees were in the garden so they had the free will to choose.

                              I don't think the serpent brought choice or free will at all. It brought temptation, defiance, greed, and deception.

                              It also brought the seed wars as described in the first prophesy of the book of Genesis.

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                                #30
                                Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

                                Like Orecha here, I have come to realize the Torah we read now as a redirection / recast of earlier knowledge. I do believe the earlier understanding can still be found, but looks a bit different than what we are given as scripture. I think this page is fairly informative

                                Eden's Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life are identified as reworked motifs found in earlier Ancient Near Eastern Myths, primarily Mesopotamian

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