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    #16
    Re: Good and bad deities

    Originally posted by Louisvillian View Post
    "Good" and "bad" are relative terms. Beneficial and non-beneficial are qualities that depend on who or what is being affected by an action.
    When you ascribe the terms to questions of morality, it jumps clear over 'subjective' and straight into 'silly'. Morality is something crafted by man. The gods are above it; beyond it. Their concerns, interaction, and faculties are so different from our own that human codes of conduct have little to no applicability to them.


    See the above bit about ascribing moral weight to 'good' and 'bad'.
    Who do you think gave morality to humans in the first place...the deities did. I mean they gave us and taught us so many things. Humans are made in "gods" image You think the deities are THAT enlightened? They have fought each other as well as humans did. There are deities that have committed adultery, have stolen, or act unethical. The only difference is they are more powerful, not more enlightened. Being more powerful doesn't make you more ethical.

    That being said, I'm certain there are deities that are bad and are aware of it. I would assume Moloch is bad wouldn't you say? Sacrificing children and by burning them no less would be kind of hard to justify wouldn't you say though?

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      #17
      Re: Good and bad deities

      Originally posted by Alienist View Post
      Who do you think gave morality to humans in the first place...the deities did. I mean they gave us and taught us so many things. Humans are made in "gods" image You think the deities are THAT enlightened? They have fought each other as well as humans did. There are deities that have committed adultery, have stolen, or act unethical. The only difference is they are more powerful, not more enlightened. Being more powerful doesn't make you more ethical.
      While I agree that there certainly are deities throughout many mythologies who could be seen as less than "kindly", I don't believe that the deities gave us "morality" at all, nor do I believe that they "created us in their image" as I believe in evolution.

      Originally posted by Alienist View Post
      That being said, I'm certain there are deities that are bad and are aware of it. I would assume Moloch is bad wouldn't you say? Sacrificing children and by burning them no less would be kind of hard to justify wouldn't you say though?
      I respect that you may believe that about Moloch, but I don't believe that all deities who demanded or enjoyed human sacrifice were necessarily "evil" and "knew it". A great deal of the things that Yahweh did, condoned or demanded of human beings could very well be described as "evil" and yet he is considered to be a fair and even loving god.

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        #18
        Re: Good and bad deities

        Originally posted by Alienist View Post
        Who do you think gave morality to humans in the first place...the deities did.
        I would disagree strongly with that. But then, my beliefs align more with the ancient Hellenistic view that the gods are above morality. They're separate from it, not because they are more enlightened but just by their very nature of being gods. It would be folly, hubris even, to think that human codes of interaction would apply to beings that are so far above mortal concerns. We made our ethical codes, to determine how we behave around each other because we are mortal and can be permanently harmed by the things we do to each other.

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          #19
          Re: Good and bad deities

          Originally posted by Alienist View Post
          Who do you think gave morality to humans in the first place...the deities did. I mean they gave us and taught us so many things. Humans are made in "gods" image You think the deities are THAT enlightened? They have fought each other as well as humans did. There are deities that have committed adultery, have stolen, or act unethical. The only difference is they are more powerful, not more enlightened. Being more powerful doesn't make you more ethical.
          I too believe that human morality is just that... human. I don't think that they deities gave us our ethical and moral codes. Morality and ethics are a product of society and culture... and yes, perhaps certain deities influenced certain cultures, but I don't think we can say that deities gave us morality. And when you look at how ethics and morals have changed throughout history, let alone between different cultures in the same time period, it's obvious that we are not limited to a moral code given to us by deities. Influenced, sure. But not given.

          Originally posted by Alienist View Post
          That being said, I'm certain there are deities that are bad and are aware of it. I would assume Moloch is bad wouldn't you say? Sacrificing children and by burning them no less would be kind of hard to justify wouldn't you say though?
          There are passages in the Bible that state the YHVH enjoys the scent of burning flesh. And lets not forget the destroying of entire cities full of people just because he didn't like the way that they had evolved. By the logic that you have applied to Moloch, YHVH would also be 'bad'.

          I just think that deities are not that simple.

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            #20
            Re: Good and bad deities

            Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
            I too believe that human morality is just that... human. I don't think that they deities gave us our ethical and moral codes. Morality and ethics are a product of society and culture... and yes, perhaps certain deities influenced certain cultures, but I don't think we can say that deities gave us morality. And when you look at how ethics and morals have changed throughout history, let alone between different cultures in the same time period, it's obvious that we are not limited to a moral code given to us by deities. Influenced, sure. But not given.



            There are passages in the Bible that state the YHVH enjoys the scent of burning flesh. And lets not forget the destroying of entire cities full of people just because he didn't like the way that they had evolved. By the logic that you have applied to Moloch, YHVH would also be 'bad'.

            I just think that deities are not that simple.
            In the bible it was animals that were sacrificed to Yahweh, not children. Human sacrifice as I know was not a practice in Judaism and animal sacrifice was used as sin offerings. Lots of religions did that As far as morality goes, we were animal like until they showed up, they gave us moral codes and ethics. They made us what we are. We were given reason and became like gods. The bible states that.

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              #21
              Re: Good and bad deities

              Originally posted by Alienist View Post
              Who do you think gave morality to humans in the first place...the deities did.
              Ooooh boy. I would LOVE to see you prove that statement.

              Frankly the idea that a person can't have morals without the gods is damned repugnant to my mind since it reduces humanity to helpless idiots that can't reason for themselves.

              Never mind how you just insulted my atheistic family members.
              "The doer alone learneth." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

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                #22
                Re: Good and bad deities

                Originally posted by Vigdisdotter View Post
                Ooooh boy. I would LOVE to see you prove that statement.

                Frankly the idea that a person can't have morals without the gods is damned repugnant to my mind since it reduces humanity to helpless idiots that can't reason for themselves.

                Never mind how you just insulted my atheistic family members.
                I'd love to see you disprove that as well...

                Also I'm not saying that if one doesn't believe in gods and goddesses, we are without morals. I'm saying THEY are the ones that gave us codes, morals, ethics and so forth. After all they gave everything else to us. Civilization, science, magic. Don't you think it's kind of obvious that they would have given us codes and morals to help us reach a higher plane of existence when we leave this planet? Without them, we'd be animal like and primal. They made us what we are.

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                  #23
                  Re: Good and bad deities

                  Originally posted by Alienist View Post
                  I'd love to see you disprove that as well...
                  I'm sure you would, but it's not logically required. I wasn't the one that made a positive claim. That onus is yours alone.

                  Originally posted by Alienist View Post
                  I'm saying THEY are the ones that gave us codes, morals, ethics and so forth.
                  You can say that until you're blue in the face, that doesn't make it fact. It's just one more unsupported claim that I have no reason to believe. A claim I find rather offensive, actually.
                  "The doer alone learneth." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

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                    #24
                    Re: Good and bad deities

                    It's not like you're actually offended anyway so you can stop pretending to act as if I touched a nerve. If I did, you have a thin layer of skin.

                    Nevertheless the topic doesn't need to be derailed any further. Of course deities are complex. When someone is evil, they don't have to necessarily be pure unadulterated evil you know. You can still be evil and do evil actions without being pure evil though. Some "good" deities have done things like adultery or theft. I'm talking about gods and goddesses that are more good than evil and vice versa.

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                      #25
                      Re: Good and bad deities

                      Originally posted by Alienist View Post
                      It's not like you're actually offended anyway so you can stop pretending to act as if I touched a nerve. If I did, you have a thin layer of skin.
                      And now you've engaged in an ad hominem. You sure are fond of logical fallacies as you avoid supporting your claim.

                      Originally posted by Alienist View Post
                      Nevertheless the topic doesn't need to be derailed any further.
                      No it doesn't. So lets see you prove your claim.
                      "The doer alone learneth." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

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                        #26
                        Re: Good and bad deities

                        General unpleasantry is my job people and I don't share well. Play nicely. This thread is on its second life. I won't offer a third.
                        life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                        Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                        "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                        John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                        "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                        Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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                          #27
                          Re: Good and bad deities

                          Originally posted by Alienist View Post
                          I'm saying THEY are the ones that gave us codes, morals, ethics and so forth. After all they gave everything else to us. Civilization, science, magic. Don't you think it's kind of obvious that they would have given us codes and morals to help us reach a higher plane of existence when we leave this planet? Without them, we'd be animal like and primal. They made us what we are.
                          I disagree, vehemently.

                          Evolution made us what we are. Our big brains gave us the ability to reason and make sense of the worlds around us and complex vocalizations gave us the ability to understand one another even on a level not possible with other social creatures. These abilities, and others, gained through a natural biological process gave us civilization, science, and magic. And religion. Our ideas of the gods may have inspired us into these things, but they were not brought down to us from upon high. We make these conceptions of the gods and their stories in our image. We judge their actions from our sense of morality and justice and behavior.
                          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                          sigpic

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                            #28
                            Re: Good and bad deities

                            So we were cave people before and with evolution we just all of a sudden had a concept of civilization, money, science, magic and so forth? How is a person who barely knows how to use sticks and stones, knows how to do arithmetic, science and chemical experiments and wielding spiritual power? Other animals who have been around longer than humans didn't "suddenly" evolve into higher beings. We didn't teach ourselves this. Somebody taught us this. That would be the gods and goddesses There's numerous stories of higher beings coming from other realms and taught us this. I know some are stories and legends almost all stories and legends have some truth to them. Otherwise they wouldn't be legends. Also when humans had a concept of civilization, how come other humans from native American tribes or Africans didn't come up with civilization and science? A lot of native americans and Africans were still tribal and lived in huts or caves. Shouldn't they too have evolved and make their own civilization? Even in modern times there were tribes that saw airplanes and didn't understand how they could fly. These were more of the isolated tribes but they didn't come up with science or magic. Why did only certain people gain access to science and magic while others didn't have that grasp? Maybe because the deities carved certain areas and spent more time in certain areas so those people were taught more things than other groups of people. I don't think evolution would make us say "You know I have this great idea called "civilization" where we'll have kings, buildings and scientific experiments even though I don't know what civilization or science is." Other beings interfered with us and taught us these things. Even alchemy was considered "a gift from God" to the Jews.

                            However with good and bad deities I figure most pantheon were good since they taught us many things, but there were rebels who went against their pantheon and started their own group. Maybe some were jealous and wanted worshippers for themselves or just wanted to cause trouble. There are legends of many wars with deities what with the Titans and Olympians and the War in Heaven. Satan and Loki are often looked at as traitors at least to their pantheon. Others such as Moloch or Asmodeus wanted more power for themselves and are enemies to Jews and Christians and so forth.

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                              #29
                              Re: Good and bad deities

                              Originally posted by Alienist View Post
                              So we were cave people before
                              Ummm...they were...you know...evolving. Evolution is an ongoing process. It was happening long before simians came out the tress. And it will continue to happen as long as there is life in the universe, whether that life uses arithmetic, etc. or not.

                              They developed that which helped them survive (this includes a concept of acceptable conduct) because that is what furthered the species.

                              Why do you have such a low opinion of humans? Or any non-divine creature for that matter.

                              For the matter why are you ignoring the many people that pointed out the subjective nature of "good" and "evil" as labels.
                              "The doer alone learneth." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

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                                #30
                                Re: Good and bad deities

                                Originally posted by Alienist View Post
                                In the bible it was animals that were sacrificed to Yahweh, not children. Human sacrifice as I know was not a practice in Judaism and animal sacrifice was used as sin offerings. Lots of religions did that As far as morality goes, we were animal like until they showed up, they gave us moral codes and ethics. They made us what we are. We were given reason and became like gods. The bible states that.
                                There are scholars who believe that the ancient Israelites and Judeans did practice human sacrifice from time to time. In the Bible, there is also the incident of the near-sacrifice of Isaac who was only spared not because "human sacrifice was wrong", but because his destiny had yet to be fulfilled. And, of course, there's Jephthah who sacrificed his own daughter. And the slaughter of the firstborn.

                                I don't understand why human sacrifice only is to be considered "evil" - animals also have souls, yet this seems to be acceptable. Aside from sacrifice, there is plenty of other evil deeds carried out either by Yahweh or in the name of Yahweh quite adequately detailed in the Bible and yet these are somehow okay. As long as it's Yahweh who's performing evil deeds or his followers, it's all groovy.

                                Humans didn't "suddenly" have a light-bulb moment and decide to build advanced societies. Why did some cultures develop civilizations and others not? Well, "civilization" doesn't mean cities, electricity and iPads. Civilization requires three elements - a city, a system of writing and a ceremonial central gathering area. Yes, there were mud-house civilizations. Yes, there were wooden-house civilizations. Invention is the reason that human beings have modern technologies. The cave men didn't wake up one day and decide to invent the light bulb. These realisations took thousands of years and came about due to environmental factors such as a people's location near a large food or water source which meant that larger numbers of people had to be sustained and thus the cultures were forced to evolve and to find new ways to support these large populations and to communicate effectively.

                                But, at the end of the day - you are entitled to believe what you will. Just remember that others are also entitled to their beliefs.

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