Atheism vs Anti-theism

[Denarius]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

I don't know of Buddhism or Shintoism doing any harm, or not causing success.

There's an entire article on wikipedia about Buddhism and violence. Plus, the argument can and has been made that Shinto (and Buddhism) played a huge role in Imperial Japan's military actions.

[WinterTraditions]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

There's an entire article on wikipedia about Buddhism and violence. Plus, the argument can and has been made that Shinto (and Buddhism) played a huge role in Imperial Japan's military actions.

Thanks for the link. Wish it wasn't from Wikipedia, though. Can you give me some reliable sources on religion's role in Imperial Japan?

[Denarius]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

Thanks for the link. Wish it wasn't from Wikipedia, though. Can you give me some reliable sources on religion's role in Imperial Japan?

well, there's some books: Zen at War, Buddhist Fury: Religion and Violence in Southern Thailand and Buddhist Warfare.

[Roknrol]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

I know you didn't say anything about war. Perhaps I should have worded that differently... I don't know of Buddhism or Shintoism doing any harm, or not causing success. You can certainly correct me. Science has had it's moments of being unsuccessful, as has several religious movements. But to say that religion has never been successful? That's way to broad of a hole you're digging.

Show me in this thread where I claimed that religion caused harm. I made no such claim, with the two exceptions (known religions, cults are obvious) Jehovas Witnesses and Scientologists. I have reasons for both which I am happy to ennumerate for you, although I'm certain they can be found elsewhere on the Forums. You accuse me of something that I have not said/done, and demand that I defend it.

The answer is no. Show me where I have made such a claim, and I will defend that.

[WinterTraditions]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

Show me in this thread where I claimed that religion caused harm. I made no such claim, with the two exceptions (known religions, cults are obvious) Jehovas Witnesses and Scientologists. I have reasons for both which I am happy to ennumerate for you, although I'm certain they can be found elsewhere on the Forums. You accuse me of something that I have not said/done, and demand that I defend it.

The answer is no. Show me where I have made such a claim, and I will defend that.

I never claimed that you said religion causes harm. Am I not allowed to say that I don't know of two religions causing harm, in correlation with your announcement that religion never leads to success? I asked for correction on if there are incidents where Buddhism or Shintoism never caused success. You're getting mad at me for being selective in what I respond to, and you responded to a single word I said while assuming that I claimed you to say that religion causes harm.

[ChainLightning]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

Winter, Stop. Rok, just... stop.

Your key points were: Rok, you said success has never been dependent on religion, or a lack of it. Or something to that effect.

Winter, please stop projecting innocence when statements you've made were wildly incorrect.


That's enough, now! You can't even get your argument straight.

[Bjorn]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

It's all making sense. I thought about it. Calmed a little. Figured out: Idon't actually belong here because I'm no longer pagan.

Says 'pagan' right in the url.

You'll not see my face on boards of any importance.

[ThePaganMafia]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

I don't know. If Atheists can deal with people beliving in faeries and have a relationship with a multitude of deities then Pagans can deal with anti-theism.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

I'm moving over to a thread on Humanism, if anybody wants to leave this rumble...

[Gleb]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

Sorry Gleb, this is an opinion. I believe that as a survival trait religion has been necessary for our species, but I also think that that time is passed and that religion isn't necessary from an evolutionary standpoint. That's a far cry from thinking that religion is offering any discernible benefit to mankind right now, which does not seem to be the case. I do not think that religion and science must compete with each other, but when religion trods on scientific territory, science has every right to defend it's ground.


I think that you don't understand our point of view

Science requires that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. The claimant is always the one that must defend his or her stance (using science). That's the way that science works.

When you talk about things that require "belief", you are definitively in the realm of "claimant" as well as "extraordinary proof". You don't believe me? Let me ask you something:

Do you believe in gravity?

Of course you don't. You don't need to build a temple to it or beg it for forgiveness - it works on all matter, regardless of opinion or belief. Proof is easy, evidence is abundant.

God? No evidence. No proof. Some temples? Are you seriously going to tell me that that constitutes "proof" to you?

http://disturbinghorror.com/Serial-Killers/Serial-Killers-Bio/Jeffery-Dahmer.html

Jeffrey Dhamer was building an altar of human skulls - does that mean the God he believed in is real? Or is it just possible that the m'fer was insane? And 200 years ago? An intelligent but insane person could go a long long way toward mass oppression. Humans are easy to control, after all.

So no, I don't believe that any man made device or man-written book is, in and of itself, evidence of God.

Do magickal things only happen in such places? Or after reading certain syllables? Cool - let's prove it! Let me ride along on your ghost hunts and on your psychic journeys - that would be an excellent way to prove to me that any of it works.

But keep in mind that I've done my research. I know an awful lot about the science behind why these things appear to work (oftentimes)...so if it's one of those reasons that makes it seem to work? That doesn't constitute proof.

But you wanted to know why temples were built? Because human beings desire answers, and we haven't always (hell, for the majority of our own history) had the ability to answer those questions. And when we don't have answers, we panic. And large numbers of panicky people are called a "mob", and are notoriously difficult to control. But if those people have answers, they stop being panicky and they start getting to work doing the things that need to be done (that they also don't understand) like growing food for the populace and making sure there's clean water. But we aren't living in times where those questions can't be answered anymore. Most of the people today are literate for starters, so they don't have to rely on just what some other person wants them to know. Now they have the ability to self-educate, and with the Internet that has completely removed ANY excuse for not knowing something. The only real question is whether or not you're able to ask the right question.

The question isn't, "Does God exist?" The question is, "Why do you think that He does?" In short, until I make an extraordinary claim, it's not my responsibility to prove a damned thing.

It makes sense, Rok. I also agree that the right question is as you said - "Why do you think god exists?" and not- "Do you believe in him?".
Personally, if I was asked this question, I would go slowly back through history.
I would like you to read what I will write next, and correct me if I am wrong at some point. I still have two questions about the subject.

1. What kind of facts are necessary, in order to prove the existence of a god?
2. If we go back from our current era, and think about the history of everything, what will be the conclusion?
21st century (all the pagan branches evolve again, Abrahamic religions too, and there is also growth of technology and science) -> Middle Centuries (Mostly Christianity rules over everything, almost no technology growth, the only growth known is the one of art) -> The era of myths, when the paganism was spread almost everywhere. It is mostly the mythology that is taught in elementary schools. -> Dinosaurs.
But what was before? How did the world create? What is the cause of the beginning of everything? Why there are also several other galaxies?
Perhaps there IS a scientific answer to my questions. That's why I post them here.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't want to say someone is wrong here, but just to have a polite argument. Without attacking anyone, but coming together to a solution of some sort.

[Roknrol]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

It makes sense, Rok. I also agree that the right question is as you said - "Why do you think god exists?" and not- "Do you believe in him?".
Personally, if I was asked this question, I would go slowly back through history.

That would be a good starting point - just don't "end" there History is passed

I would like you to read what I will write next, and correct me if I am wrong at some point. I still have two questions about the subject.

I'm far from an expert, but I'll give it a shot

1. What kind of facts are necessary, in order to prove the existence of a god?

You don't, or at least, science doesn't. The problem here is that definitions are fuzzy, and Science relies on understanding the question as much as understanding the answer.

I could certainly offer up...suggestions...but they would by no means be an "encompassing" list of proofs, as God is supposedly all-powerful. Presumably He could change the laws of Physics. I'd say that'd be a pretty solid proof there.

Bringing someone back from the dead? Sure, as long as there's evidence that the person was actually dead - say, someone that's already been embalmed - that'd be a pretty neat trick.

For me, the biggest evidence that there *isn't* a traditional God is found at the site "Why won't God heal amputees" or something like that.

We hear every day how God worked on someone's behalf. We hear about cured cancer and cured children and cured parents and cured pets - everything from cancer to psoriasis...but I have never - not one time - heard a story about how some amputee regrew a limb. Not one. Mountains of anecdotal evidence cannot ignore the fact that when God really has the opportunity to make His point, He doesn't.

What would I accept? Well, anything acceptable It would have to be something testable and unexplainable by any simpler means (Occam's Razor).

2. If we go back from our current era, and think about the history of everything, what will be the conclusion?
21st century (all the pagan branches evolve again, Abrahamic religions too, and there is also growth of technology and science) -> Middle Centuries (Mostly Christianity rules over everything, almost no technology growth, the only growth known is the one of art) -> The era of myths, when the paganism was spread almost everywhere. It is mostly the mythology that is taught in elementary schools. -> Dinosaurs.

Well, this assumes "Western History", as I'm certain the Chinese have had a very very different historical last few thousand years.

But we can't really work backwards I don't think - hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20...we can't know what our ancestors thought by where we ended up. We *can* know what our ancestors thought by what we read though (and by what they wrote, of course) and we can see countless examples of where human perceptions have deceptively led people to the incorrect conclusions (earth is flat, bathing is bad, sex with family is good, etc etc etc etc etc...really, the list goes on as long as you feel like enumerating)

This is how *I* view human history, but this is not "science"...simply my perception.

20,000 years ago humanity is nearly wiped out by an asteroid, largely blocking the sun and causing an ice age. These near-humans used some tools, but were far from scientists.

I know not which form their Gods would have taken prior to this event, but is there any real mystery on why our earliest Gods were Animals and the Sun? Oh, and fire...we can't forget fire.

On top of that we have the very human need for social interaction, the very real existence of people that want to dictate how other people live, and the very very real existence of people that are willing to blindly follow.

Rinse and repeat for a few thousand years.

Magically you end up with all sorts of magic stories about magic people that did magic things magically. They are the beliefs - the suggestions and teachings, the uplifting sayings and songs, that help keep people alive when they don't have much more reason to do so.

And as a tool, the people in charge find out how very very very useful it is. Telling someone that they have to climb into the yucky water to wash invisible bugs off of their body so they don't die may be a little over their heads, but people understand "Cleanliness is next to Godliness", as well as "God said so."

Now...some of those people still exist. These people desperately need to be told how the Universe works and they are willing to accept the FIRST answer as the RIGHT answer.

I'm sure I've deviated and this didn't answer your question - ask again another way and I'll try again another way

But what was before? How did the world create? What is the cause of the beginning of everything? Why there are also several other galaxies?

Why does "God" answer these questions better than "we don't know"?

Personally I find the answer "I don't know" to be very satisfying...it gives us something to research. "God did it!" doesn't really answer anything, as (I pointed out above), God isn't even defined.

Perhaps there IS a scientific answer to my questions. That's why I post them here.

And someday there might be. There ARE limitations in science (science doesn't claim to be able to answer everything) - after all, the Universe is only as big as what we can see. Since light travels at a set speed, we know that the Universe is (at least) a few hundred billion years old (based on how "far" we can see)...but you know, it could be a WHOLE lot bigger - the light from those distant stars just haven't reached us yet.

So to answer your questions:
What was before? We don't know.
How did the world create? World or Universe? The Universe (as best we can tell) started off with everything compressed into one tiny finite amount of space. The pressure was too big (due to an imbalance between matter and antimatter, as best we can tell) and exploded (too much pressure). After a few billion years, gravity took over and started pulling matter together (we have tested and can witness at least this much in space). Eventually, big balls of gas get together, build up pressure (because, you know, gravity) and eventually it gets so dense and hot that the gas combusts. BAM, stars. In the hearts of stars, with the heat and pressure, the elements are created - Oxygen, Hydrogen, Iron, Diamonds, CARBON (which is kind of important).

Over billions of years, matter is ejected into space and reabsorbed into stars. Planets form from debris that is too far away from a star to be pulled in right away because gravity (and newtons laws) still work. Etc etc etc - I'm leaving gaps, but that should be enough to get you started if you want to know details

What is the cause of the beginning of everything? We don't know
Why there are also several other galaxies? AFAIC this question alone is enough to cause me to question the existence of a God that supposedly only has our best interests in mind.

Humanity used to believe that the Earth was the center of our solar system. Science has shown us that, not only are we not in the center of the solar system, we're at the fringe of a galaxy that's nothing particularly special, NOT in the middle of the Universe. Doesn't sound like we're the prime focus of much,

- - - Updated - - -

I don't want to say someone is wrong here, but just to have a polite argument. Without attacking anyone, but coming together to a solution of some sort.

Even though it's not strictly on-topic, I much prefer real conversation to petty bickering myself.

And sometimes science doesn't answer the questions to people's satisfaction...that is very true. But does God always do so? And at least with science you have a fair shot of getting an answer that makes sense (even if it's one you don't like).

[Gleb]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

That would be a good starting point - just don't "end" there History is passed

I'm far from an expert, but I'll give it a shot

You don't, or at least, science doesn't. The problem here is that definitions are fuzzy, and Science relies on understanding the question as much as understanding the answer.

I could certainly offer up...suggestions...but they would by no means be an "encompassing" list of proofs, as God is supposedly all-powerful. Presumably He could change the laws of Physics. I'd say that'd be a pretty solid proof there.

Bringing someone back from the dead? Sure, as long as there's evidence that the person was actually dead - say, someone that's already been embalmed - that'd be a pretty neat trick.

For me, the biggest evidence that there *isn't* a traditional God is found at the site "Why won't God heal amputees" or something like that.

We hear every day how God worked on someone's behalf. We hear about cured cancer and cured children and cured parents and cured pets - everything from cancer to psoriasis...but I have never - not one time - heard a story about how some amputee regrew a limb. Not one. Mountains of anecdotal evidence cannot ignore the fact that when God really has the opportunity to make His point, He doesn't.

What would I accept? Well, anything acceptable It would have to be something testable and unexplainable by any simpler means (Occam's Razor).


Well, this assumes "Western History", as I'm certain the Chinese have had a very very different historical last few thousand years.

But we can't really work backwards I don't think - hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20...we can't know what our ancestors thought by where we ended up. We *can* know what our ancestors thought by what we read though (and by what they wrote, of course) and we can see countless examples of where human perceptions have deceptively led people to the incorrect conclusions (earth is flat, bathing is bad, sex with family is good, etc etc etc etc etc...really, the list goes on as long as you feel like enumerating)

This is how *I* view human history, but this is not "science"...simply my perception.

20,000 years ago humanity is nearly wiped out by an asteroid, largely blocking the sun and causing an ice age. These near-humans used some tools, but were far from scientists.

I know not which form their Gods would have taken prior to this event, but is there any real mystery on why our earliest Gods were Animals and the Sun? Oh, and fire...we can't forget fire.

On top of that we have the very human need for social interaction, the very real existence of people that want to dictate how other people live, and the very very real existence of people that are willing to blindly follow.

Rinse and repeat for a few thousand years.

Magically you end up with all sorts of magic stories about magic people that did magic things magically. They are the beliefs - the suggestions and teachings, the uplifting sayings and songs, that help keep people alive when they don't have much more reason to do so.

And as a tool, the people in charge find out how very very very useful it is. Telling someone that they have to climb into the yucky water to wash invisible bugs off of their body so they don't die may be a little over their heads, but people understand "Cleanliness is next to Godliness", as well as "God said so."

Now...some of those people still exist. These people desperately need to be told how the Universe works and they are willing to accept the FIRST answer as the RIGHT answer.

I'm sure I've deviated and this didn't answer your question - ask again another way and I'll try again another way


Why does "God" answer these questions better than "we don't know"?

Personally I find the answer "I don't know" to be very satisfying...it gives us something to research. "God did it!" doesn't really answer anything, as (I pointed out above), God isn't even defined.

And someday there might be. There ARE limitations in science (science doesn't claim to be able to answer everything) - after all, the Universe is only as big as what we can see. Since light travels at a set speed, we know that the Universe is (at least) a few hundred billion years old (based on how "far" we can see)...but you know, it could be a WHOLE lot bigger - the light from those distant stars just haven't reached us yet.

So to answer your questions:
What was before? We don't know.
How did the world create? World or Universe? The Universe (as best we can tell) started off with everything compressed into one tiny finite amount of space. The pressure was too big (due to an imbalance between matter and antimatter, as best we can tell) and exploded (too much pressure). After a few billion years, gravity took over and started pulling matter together (we have tested and can witness at least this much in space). Eventually, big balls of gas get together, build up pressure (because, you know, gravity) and eventually it gets so dense and hot that the gas combusts. BAM, stars. In the hearts of stars, with the heat and pressure, the elements are created - Oxygen, Hydrogen, Iron, Diamonds, CARBON (which is kind of important).

Over billions of years, matter is ejected into space and reabsorbed into stars. Planets form from debris that is too far away from a star to be pulled in right away because gravity (and newtons laws) still work. Etc etc etc - I'm leaving gaps, but that should be enough to get you started if you want to know details

What is the cause of the beginning of everything? We don't know
Why there are also several other galaxies? AFAIC this question alone is enough to cause me to question the existence of a God that supposedly only has our best interests in mind.

Humanity used to believe that the Earth was the center of our solar system. Science has shown us that, not only are we not in the center of the solar system, we're at the fringe of a galaxy that's nothing particularly special, NOT in the middle of the Universe. Doesn't sound like we're the prime focus of much,




Even though it's not strictly on-topic, I much prefer real conversation to petty bickering myself.

And sometimes science doesn't answer the questions to people's satisfaction...that is very true. But does God always do so? And at least with science you have a fair shot of getting an answer that makes sense (even if it's one you don't like).

Thanks very much, Rok You have given me an excellent start point about everything. I guess the rest is just research.

[GardenOfShadows]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

For the brave theists, got any horror stories?

No, not really. At most, people think I'm silly or a little delusional. I've never actually been heavily criticized or called stupid for being a theist.

Does the very idea of atheism/agnosticism/anti-theism bother you?

No, they don't.

Do you feel personally attacked when someone disagrees with you -- if so, why?

Until the day comes where I'm told I can't practice my path, or that somehow my path will lead to the fall of rationality and civilization, I don't care what other people think.

[satanic witch]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

I don't have a problem with atheism , but like every group u have extremests , now anti - theism is somthing that I've had a few brushes with on the internet thank the gods not in person, from some people I've met online who have anti theism views they seemed execivily rude and aggravating , them and extremest Christians are the only ones I have any real pains with

[loststarshine]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

No. I like disagreement lol. I like discussion. I like debate. To me, there is nothing more boring than a 'discussion' thread where everyone just follows each other going 'oh yeah, I agree' or something like that. BORING! Disagree with me! Challenge me! Make me think about my beliefs and the reasons behind them. Either I'll take what you say on board and adjust my beliefs or I'll decide that it doesn't change anything and keep on believing. Spirituality without discussion and disagreement is blind faith, and I'm really not into that. .[/QUOTE]


That all of that^^ exactly how I feel. Since joining the boards I revaluate my thoughts and feelings helping my beliefs grow and transform