Atheism vs Anti-theism

[dantefrizzoli]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

It's always seemed to me that denominations/divisions/sects/whatever-you-want-to-call-thems are most responsible for taking the spirituality of a few and turning it into the madness of many. By this definition...

Atheism: disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
Anti-theism: an active opposition to theism of any kind, or an active opposition to specific kinds

...I would have to say anti-theism seems to have the most precise line on countering the evils done by and in the name of religion.

[Azvanna]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

1. What kind of facts are necessary, in order to prove the existence of a god?
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I smiled when I read that because what a curly question!! Divinity/spirituality is articulated in so many different ways it would be hard to know what is being proven even with a fact in hand!

I love discussing spirituality with my friend who's a scientist. He identifies as atheist but not anti-theist. He remarked to me that divinity is a construct we (our human ancestors) used to explain the mysterious. His example was that when we didn't know what made the waves move like they do, we imbued them with a water-spirit. He reckoned that religion is a social construct to get a group of people to agree to behave a certain way. He asked me why I believed in God and all I could give him were statements that started with 'I feel' or 'because of *this unexplained mystery.* He made his point, but I think it's very important to have a language to explain those experiences that fall beyond the five senses.

I don't think that it's the belief in divinity that is harmful, but it's what the mind and the conscience does with such a belief. What guides the conscience depends very much on the ability to empathise, past experiences and social conditioning. There's a song by Sara Groves called 'Painting Pictures of Egypt' and in the lyric she sings 'but the places that used to fit me cannot hold the things I've learned. Those roads were closed off to me while my back was turned.' It's a song about cognitive inertia and I feel this is where we are at on a global scale at the moment. As a human race, we are only just getting to know each other and our world. We are meeting people with other ways of living that conflict with our own. Scientific advances challenge our interpretation of the supernatural. When the sifting ends, what will remain?

Anti-theism just seems silly to me. It seems to perpetuate the same things it wants to stop. When people fight verbally or physically in the name of their gods, what they are really fighting for is their way of life. They would still have a way of life without a divinity to centre it around. Anti-theism seems to pick a fight over lifestyle choice as well. It doesn't seem helpful.

[Gleb]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

I smiled when I read that because what a curly question!! Divinity/spirituality is articulated in so many different ways it would be hard to know what is being proven even with a fact in hand!

I love discussing spirituality with my friend who's a scientist. He identifies as atheist but not anti-theist. He remarked to me that divinity is a construct we (our human ancestors) used to explain the mysterious. His example was that when we didn't know what made the waves move like they do, we imbued them with a water-spirit. He reckoned that religion is a social construct to get a group of people to agree to behave a certain way. He asked me why I believed in God and all I could give him were statements that started with 'I feel' or 'because of *this unexplained mystery.* He made his point, but I think it's very important to have a language to explain those experiences that fall beyond the five senses.

I don't think that it's the belief in divinity that is harmful, but it's what the mind and the conscience does with such a belief. What guides the conscience depends very much on the ability to empathise, past experiences and social conditioning. There's a song by Sara Groves called 'Painting Pictures of Egypt' and in the lyric she sings 'but the places that used to fit me cannot hold the things I've learned. Those roads were closed off to me while my back was turned.' It's a song about cognitive inertia and I feel this is where we are at on a global scale at the moment. As a human race, we are only just getting to know each other and our world. We are meeting people with other ways of living that conflict with our own. Scientific advances challenge our interpretation of the supernatural. When the sifting ends, what will remain?

Anti-theism just seems silly to me. It seems to perpetuate the same things it wants to stop. When people fight verbally or physically in the name of their gods, what they are really fighting for is their way of life. They would still have a way of life without a divinity to centre it around. Anti-theism seems to pick a fight over lifestyle choice as well. It doesn't seem helpful.

Agreed. I don't even think, that the existence of a god needs any proof. Why? Because so many miracles happen in this world. An these miracles are the proof. Some might ask: "Why all the wars happen, then?", and the answer is that we - the humans want so. As you said, Azvanna, it's the way of life of one group of people, or another.

[habbalah]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

No real horror stories, just kind of an amusing one. My brother used to be a hardcore Christian, then very abruptly because a hardcore atheist. He knows I'm a pagan and after asking me a little about what I believed, railed against me and started saying why he didn't believe particular things that I did. My response was pretty much "that's fine that you feel that way". Then he asked if I believed in creation, and when I said yes, he asked me how I could possibly not believe in evolution. At that point, my deflective responses stopped and I instead replied, "you can believe in creation and still believe in evolution, moron. Even the first speck of dust needed to come from somewhere". He didn't seem to know how to take that.

[Denarius]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

No real horror stories, just kind of an amusing one. My brother used to be a hardcore Christian, then very abruptly because a hardcore atheist.

Hah, the dreaded born-again atheist.

[habbalah]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

Hah, the dreaded born-again atheist.

To be fair to him, he did ask to borrow one of my books about paganism. He said it was because he was curious, not because he was interested spiritually. I think that a read through these forums might be interesting to him (secular humanism sounds right up his alley).

[Seeking a Religion]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

* Defined dorkily from Google search, double checked by my handy-dandy Webster

Atheism: disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
Anti-theism: an active opposition to theism of any kind, or an active opposition to specific kinds

So there we have the decided differences between the two philosophies, but it seems to me that what I sense from the atheists around here is that they seem much more apathetic or even agnostic about their true beliefs. Is there anything that differs in your daily walks? Are there any particular pantheons that bother you more than others? Any particular religions? I know that I personally am much more vocal in my daily life about my dislike for Christians (not exactly Christianity) than I am on here, or anywhere else, really.

Experiences? Stories? For the brave theists, got any horror stories? Does the very idea of atheism/agnosticism/anti-theism bother you and if so, why? Do you feel personally attacked when someone disagrees with you -- if so, why?

I believe the anti-Theist crowd can best be summed up by the term : New Atheism . People that qualify would be folks like Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, etc...whove come out with books defaming all World Religions as 'evil' and who take a personal focus-vendetta on Theism and Christianity . Until these people hit the scene, atheism was more subdued, tolerant , permissive of other Beliefs, etc.... seems like over the last 5 decades its gone from a non hostile approach to a very hostile approach with the relentless spewing of defamation, personal attacks on Christians in particular, gross ridiculing , et al... Ive also noticed that there has been a shift in what used to be called traditional atheistic worldview and origins which was materialism and naturalism..., to accommodate even the possibility of a Creator or higher level Aliens (see youtubes Dawkins vs Stein interview) . Ever since Science proved that our universe had a definite beginning in time and it is not eternal, it has really shook up the atheist world and they've had to accommodate more of a Theistic Worldview / Origins im sure much to their schagrin .

Conversely, I see more of a proactive stand against Atheism and the New Atheist regime from CHristians who are finally refusing to be the sleeping Giant they've been and are speaking out against the fallacies of Atheism from a worldview and sociological standpoint . The next decade is going to be an interesting one for sure, so stock up on the popcorn.

[Denarius]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

Ever since Science proved that our universe had a definite beginning in time and it is not eternal, it has really shook up the atheist world and they've had to accommodate more of a Theistic Worldview / Origins im sure much to their schagrin .

Actually, we've only proved that the universe as it exists now and to the extent that we understand it had a beginning. We actually have a few explanations for how that could of occurred as well, outside of divine magic.

Such as this. Really, our universe could very well just be one of many universes with their origins in a larger universe.

Here's Dawkins' views RE: religion is evil:

Behind the rhetoric, it's a valid point. It's also literally the same argument that Christinaity makes for man being evil in nature, that there is potential for evil in all of us. I wouldn't really go so far as to say that myself, but religion is definitely not a force for good.

It can be, the potential is there, but as a whole it isn't. Not by a long shot. There is nothing in this world that hasn't been corrupted by our baser nature. Not religion, not atheism, not science.

That is a problem with US, not with any of those things.

[Seeking a Religion]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

Actually, we've only proved that the universe as it exists now and to the extent that we understand it had a beginning. We actually have a few explanations for how that could of occurred as well, outside of divine magic.





Behind the rhetoric, it's a valid point. It's also literally the same argument that Christinaity makes for man being evil in nature, that there is potential for evil in all of us. I wouldn't really go so far as to say that myself, but religion is definitely not a force for good.

It can be, the potential is there, but as a whole it isn't. Not by a long shot. There is nothing in this world that hasn't been corrupted by our baser nature. Not religion, not atheism, not science.

That is a problem with US, not with any of those things.

Modern science has proven that the universe had a cause and when you look at what kind of cause it had to have been based on the effects we have, it is clear to the reasonable Mind that it had to be personal . The multiverse speculation is completely unprovable and imaginary because it doesn't deal with the reality we have. When we examine what we do have by way of effects from the Creation event (our reality today) , we can get a very accurate idea of what the First Cause had to be ; The First Cause must be self existent, timeless, nonspatial, immaterial since the First Cause created time, space, and matter and he is without limits and is infinite . The first cause of anything that becomes finite, must be infinite or outside of what is created much like a Painter is to his Painting. The First Cause would have to unimaginably powerful to create the entire Universe out of nothing and supremely intelligent to design the Universe with incredible precision . The Cause would have to be personal in order to choose to convert a state of nothingness into the time-space-material universe, for, an impersonal force has no ability to make choices. These characteristics of the First Cause are exactly the characteristics ascribe to God and they are NOT someones religion or subjective experience...rather they are drawn from the scientific evidence which IS our reality .

'Religion is definitely not a source for good....' : Including the sociological fallout of religious secular humanism based on its affirmations found in Manifesto 1 and 2.

[volcaniclastic]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

Modern science has proven that the universe had a cause and when you look at what kind of cause it had to have been based on the effects we have, it is clear to the reasonable Mind that it had to be personal . The multiverse speculation is completely unprovable and imaginary because it doesn't deal with the reality we have.

That's an assumption. In your humble opinion, it is clear that it had to be personal. Don't confuse opinion with science.

[Denarius]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

Wow, the universe is so precisely designed...

[Seeking a Religion]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

That's an assumption. In your humble opinion, it is clear that it had to be personal. Don't confuse opinion with science.

Wont you please tell us then : How did highly personal ,intelligent entities , information-laden effects come from unwilled/undirected/non intelligent raw materials and chemicals like hydrogen, helium, planets, stars, etc ? Tell us how DNA with its vast information density with specified complexity enough to fill 1,000 volumes of encyclopedias from a one celled amoeba (per atheist Richard Dawkins) came from dead chemicals ? This isn't my opinion....rather it is scientifically impossible . Back in the early 1980's when the Pet Rock phenomenon was in full force, my Pet Rock didn't do squat for me by way of communicating --- it just took up dead space and my mom made me clean the thing weekly cause it was just a dust collector...and oversized paper weight.

Atheism is the least possible worldviews out of all ; it requires one be illogical for the sake of enjoying no ultimate moral culpability by way of lifestyle choices. Eliminate a personal moral creator and virtually everything is permissible.

[iris]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

Well... the answer, to me, seems to be pretty simple : evolution.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

Wont you please tell us then : How did highly personal ,intelligent entities , information-laden effects come from unwilled/undirected/non intelligent raw materials and chemicals like hydrogen, helium, planets, stars, etc ? Tell us how DNA with its vast information density with specified complexity enough to fill 1,000 volumes of encyclopedias from a one celled amoeba (per atheist Richard Dawkins) came from dead chemicals ? This isn't my opinion....rather it is scientifically impossible ...*

Yup - I suppose it is... right up to the point where one begins to understand chemistry & chemical reactions, physics and the effects of physical processes, or evolution...

*emphasis added.

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Atheism is the least possible worldviews out of all ; it requires one be illogical for the sake of enjoying no ultimate moral culpability by way of lifestyle choices. Eliminate a personal moral creator and virtually everything is permissible.

I love this kind of ignorant poop beyond all words.

Religious people must be weird - if they suddenly became atheists, they are convinced that they will begin raping their daughters, and prostituting their sons...

Uhm... people like this, apparently, do need God to tell them how to be human.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

Oddly enough

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+10%3A23&version=CEB

a creator power doesn't actually guarantee restriction any more than the lack of one. It might (depends on path) add consequences to ill choice but society does the same thing and generally faster.