Atheism vs Anti-theism

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

Solipsism and existentialism are both better for atheists than is nihilism.

Just because there is no Huge Cosmic Purpose doesn't mean that there is no purpose. It just means that you can (and should) find or make your own purpose.

The idea that if a purpose isn't given from "on high" to you then the world is without purpose and hope is ridiculous - a philosophy for losers. It's just pathetic.

[Ula]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

* Defined dorkily from Google search, double checked by my handy-dandy Webster

Atheism: disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
Anti-theism: an active opposition to theism of any kind, or an active opposition to specific kinds

So there we have the decided differences between the two philosophies, but it seems to me that what I sense from the atheists around here is that they seem much more apathetic or even agnostic about their true beliefs. Is there anything that differs in your daily walks? Are there any particular pantheons that bother you more than others? Any particular religions? I know that I personally am much more vocal in my daily life about my dislike for Christians (not exactly Christianity) than I am on here, or anywhere else, really.

Experiences? Stories? For the brave theists, got any horror stories? Does the very idea of atheism/agnosticism/anti-theism bother you and if so, why? Do you feel personally attacked when someone disagrees with you -- if so, why?

I am a member of a couple free thinker/atheist boards. I go there knowing my beliefs will be called into question and picked at. Not a problem. There are those who often post about going out to religious boards and doing the same thing to members just to be hurtful and mean. They are no better then witnessing Christians. I have no real life support as far as my faith/religion so having to deal with anti-believers on boards I go to for support and growth is frustrating pretty much bs. It's hard to discuss ideas with other believers when you constantly get the your all dumb and wrong when your in the middle of an exchange. I have learned that in those place you just don't get too personal and keep it as general as possible.

[Orecha]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

I've got no problem with atheists. It's the antitheists that tend to rub me the wrong way. It isn't their existence that bothers me but the fact that my existence bothers them.

I find many antitheists, when you really start talking to them, actually come from a position of subconscious or closeted misotheism. That is, that they are acting out of hatred for their pantheon of origin and wish to some how punish their gods. Somewhere, deep down, they still believe, which is why they hate so vehemently. If they truly had ceased to believe, they would be filled with apathy not hate (like how I fell about my ex-girlfriends). The sad thing is that, like the vocal fundamentalist minority among the religions they hate, the antitheists are incredibly vocal and therefore tend to represent the totality of atheism in the public mind. Richard Dawkins' fundamentalist and militant brand of atheism, what those of us in the academic study of religion call "Dawkinsian Atheism," is a prime example.

I was actually recently attacked on facebook by one such antitheist, who resorted to personal attacks against me and my girlfriend when I debunked his claims against a certain religion that he was violently attacking. The humorous part is that when he began attacking me as a religious person, he got my religion wrong, repeatedly. Alas...

[Hekla]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

For the brave theists, got any horror stories?

I wouldn't call it a horror story per se, but I did have a bad experience with Christians six years ago. I was with my high school youth group on a mission trip down to New Orleans just helping out with work that still needed to be done from Katrina damage. At the end of the trip, I caught wind that people were saying some pretty nasty and unfounded things about me behind my back. It hurt me to the point that I actually got angry with Christianity as a whole - since I read more and more about hypocrisy of that sort when I did a lot of research on religion. Because of that, I'm actually a bit anti-theist myself, in the sense that I'm strongly opposed to organized religion.

Does the very idea of atheism/agnosticism/anti-theism bother you and if so, why?

Not at all. Actually I kind of like it. It's mentally stimulating for me to hear differing views and people questioning faith. Gives me new stuff to chew on. In fact, if it weren't for faith questioning, I'd probably still be a half-believing Christian-in-name-only.

Do you feel personally attacked when someone disagrees with you -- if so, why?

I don't feel personally attacked until the other person starts to berate me just for being different than them. Or actually attacks me.

Creationism has led to the idea that there is no reason to worry about the environment, because "man was set to rule over creation" and, why bother trying to preserve something that God is just going to burn soon anyway?

This is the single largest thing I hate about creationism. I know people who still don't believe that global warming is being accelerated by human ignorance, and don't care if entire species go extinct. Hel, those people don't believe global warming exists or existed ever. But this will just become a long rant about why I disagree with creationism, so I'll stop here.

[Orecha]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

Monotheism has provided strong support (intentionally or unintentionally) to sexism, racism, castigation, tyranny and genocide (to name a few).
[...]
Creationism has led to the idea that there is no reason to worry about the environment, because "man was set to rule over creation" and, why bother trying to preserve something that God is just going to burn soon anyway?

This is the single largest thing I hate about creationism. I know people who still don't believe that global warming is being accelerated by human ignorance, and don't care if entire species go extinct. Hel, those people don't believe global warming exists or existed ever. But this will just become a long rant about why I disagree with creationism, so I'll stop here.

This is one of my big pet peeves about antitheism and why I see most antitheism as masked or closeted misotheism. Antitheists tend to be, in fact, against the dominant religion of their culture (in this case, Christianity) and, therefore, lump all religions in with that one offending religion.

This is the case with creationism here. Almost all religions are creationist; however, it is really only Christianity has the viewpoint put forward here as offensive ("that there is no reason to worry about the environment, because 'man was set to rule over creation' and, why bother trying to preserve something that God is just going to burn soon anyway?"). Consider that earth-centered religions are nearly 100% creationist, and that argument gets a bit deflated. I'm not saying that this isn't a valid argument against Christianity, just that the use of the term "creationist" is a bit unfair to the other religions throughout time that believed that the universe was created by gods. Just keep in mind that it's not "creationism" in and of itself that you're voicing a problem with, just the Christian version of it.

The same is true of "monotheism." There are/were many monotheistic faiths that promoted pacifist egalitarian societies. It is greed not monotheism that drives "sexism, racism, castigation, tyranny and genocide." Polytheistic cultures have their share of these. Look at Rome, Assyria, Babylonia, Greece, and Precolonial Central America for examples, just to name a few. Even atheist cultures are driven by the same forces as well, such as with Stalinist Russia.

Sit down and think about what you hate. Is it Religion with a capital "R" or is it really only one religion.

[Hekla]

[ThorsSon]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

This is one of my big pet peeves about antitheism and why I see most antitheism as masked or closeted misotheism. Antitheists tend to be, in fact, against the dominant religion of their culture (in this case, Christianity) and, therefore, lump all religions in with that one offending religion.

This is the case with creationism here. Almost all religions are creationist; however, it is really only Christianity has the viewpoint put forward here as offensive ("that there is no reason to worry about the environment, because 'man was set to rule over creation' and, why bother trying to preserve something that God is just going to burn soon anyway?"). Consider that earth-centered religions are nearly 100% creationist, and that argument gets a bit deflated. I'm not saying that this isn't a valid argument against Christianity, just that the use of the term "creationist" is a bit unfair to the other religions throughout time that believed that the universe was created by gods. Just keep in mind that it's not "creationism" in and of itself that you're voicing a problem with, just the Christian version of it.

You are right, I was lazy in my use of the word "creationist," as I was, on that point, speaking specifically of Biblical creationists.

The same is true of "monotheism." There are/were many monotheistic faiths that promoted pacifist egalitarian societies. It is greed not monotheism that drives "sexism, racism, castigation, tyranny and genocide." Polytheistic cultures have their share of these. Look at Rome, Assyria, Babylonia, Greece, and Precolonial Central America for examples, just to name a few. Even atheist cultures are driven by the same forces as well, such as with Stalinist Russia.

I didn't say "drive," I said it has provided strong support. A single, patriarchal deity is much easier for those in power to wield as a tool of oppression, than is a pantheon. Yes, it is greed that is behind it.

And, as I said at the end of my previous post, I recognize that human nature would still be human nature, with or without religion, and that is why my anti-theism is mostly relegated to my own thoughts, rather than my speech or actions... I am only discussing it here, because the question was asked.

Sit down and think about what you hate. Is it Religion with a capital "R" or is it really only one religion.

Hate isn't the word. I just see a lot of trouble with religion, magical thinking, and belief in/reliance upon the supernatural.

My issue is with it being used as a tool to oppress and/or abuse. I also take issue with the fact, that often, it seems religious belief replaces critical thinking.

I don't hate religion... but I do find it objectionable.

It is true, that most of the things that might get mentioned off the top of my head, if asked why, would be directed at the Abrahamic religions and Scientology... but that is because they of their size and reach.

But, psychics and homeopathy would find their way into the discussion, as well.

[Medusa]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

I'd like to ask the theists a question. Is what bothers you about non theists that they question your faith? Or that when they do it, they are idiots about it. I mean.. I sort of get a sense of this:
I don't mind gays. Just be quiet, sit down and don't kiss in my outdoor space.

It seems people don't mind us until we speak about our beliefs, our rights, our perspective. Then suddenly we are assholes because we showed our existence.

As an atheist I have the same right to be obnoxious as the theists are. Especially this time of year. It seems theists don't mind the non ones until about it's time to 'celebrate' something theists think is specifically theirs.

Yeah. This. In a more academic way. But I'm full of pizza and chocolate.

[Rowanwood]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

I'd like to ask the theists a question. Is what bothers you about non theists that they question your faith? Or that when they do it, they are idiots about it. I mean.. I sort of get a sense of this:
I don't mind gays. Just be quiet, sit down and don't kiss in my outdoor space.

It seems people don't mind us until we speak about our beliefs, our rights, our perspective. Then suddenly we are assholes because we showed our existence.

As an atheist I have the same right to be obnoxious as the theists are. Especially this time of year. It seems theists don't mind the non ones until about it's time to 'celebrate' something theists think is specifically theirs.

Yeah. This. In a more academic way. But I'm full of pizza and chocolate.

I only get offended if the debate is just a full on attack. I'm hardly a woo-woo hallelujah sort of theist; I'm just barely a theist at all. I don't mind if someone thinks I'm wrong, I just dislike someone just saying I'm defective or idiotic for having a belief. That's the key thing discussed above, atheist vs antitheist vs misotheist. In the end, most faith doesn't have proof, so I can't debate or stand back and say, x=y hence my pantheism is right. Because it might not be for someone...and that's fine with me. But it is right for me, because it brings me peace, helps me function in the world, yet doesn't prevent me from accepting new info and interacting with it accordingly. That's all the proof I have, and all I, personally, need. I hardly think that's a point of view that's worthy of derision. THAT's all I take issue with with, if that's clear.

It doesn't hurt me if someone doesn't believe. It doesn't hurt me if they are vocal about it...if it's done with respect. Using the gay metaphor? If two men want to be together, that's awesome but I'd take issue with them screaming about how gross women are and how they should all be just used to make more sexy boy babies and then locked up like the sick gross things they are....see my point?

[Aeran]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

I'd like to ask the theists a question. Is what bothers you about non theists that they question your faith?

I'm not sure if you're referring to people here or just speaking generally, because I haven't seen anyone here claim that atheists bother them inherently, People have already summed up what's generally found to be irritating behavior on the part of atheists. I think the general theme has been that they have nothing against atheists as long as they're respectful about it.

I'm not sure if I qualify as a 'theist,' but speaking personally, I'm happy to debate my worldview and have my beliefs and opinions picked apart, but not when I'm trying to discuss something else. There's a time and a place to question people's beliefs and practices and worldviews and what not. What does bug me is when I'm trying to have a discussion about a specific aspect of my beliefs or practices that requires accepting, for the time being, certain assumptions, only to have people barge in and drag the entire discussion off topic just so they can shift it into them picking apart those assumptions or shoving their own worldview around.

A really good example of this is a certain forum I used to post on, this place was set up for the discussion of occult spirituality, magic, etc. but had one or two members who held very strictly to what was basically the psychological theory of magic, and would literally jump in on and hijack every single discussion to try and breakdown what was being said into the framework of their understanding. So someone would create a thread asking whether X and Y practices are compatible, or for advice with a certain ritual, or how to deal with a certain phenomena, only to have these individuals barge in and not just say 'hey, have you looked at it from this perspective,' but break down every little thing to use it to provide an example of why their understanding is right and the original poster's is wrong, making post after post shoving their opinion's down people's throats when all they wanted was opinions and advice from people whoo'd had the same experiences. That kind of obnoxious dogmatism really bothers me. There's nothing wrong with varying beliefs and opinions, but there's a time and a place to put them out there, and ways to do it without shoving them down people's throats and getting in the way of a perfectly good discussion.

None of that is directed at you personally, I've never seen any of that from your direction, but that kind of stuff is extremely common. The stereotype of the obnoxious, abrasive internet atheist didn't develop out of nowhere. If you're gonna define yourself with that label, you need to accept that it comes with a ton of baggage.

[Medusa]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

The first part of the question is directed for you guys here. The other part is what I see in general out there. Especially the news. Which I realize in context, is a small amount of the theist population.

If you're gonna define yourself with that label, you need to accept that it comes with a ton of baggage.

Good point. Which is why out there in the world I identify as a Satanist. Because the baggage that comes with that?

People are too scared to fucking ask me a dumb question. It's a usable label if you ask me

[Aeran]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

Good point. Which is why out there in the world I identify as a Satanist. Because the baggage that comes with that?

I'm confused, are you saying that 'satanist' comes with less baggage than 'atheist'?

edit: wait, nevermind, I get, that stray question mark did my head in for a moment. Sleep deprivation isn't helping.

[thalassa]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

and homeopathy would find their way into the discussion, as well.

Ugh. Don't even get me started on homeopathy. (not that this is the place for it anyhow) I'm down with (in general, though I object to some specific practices and practitioners) herbalism, acupuncture, chiropractic treatments...heck, I even claim to practice magic. But homeopathy is pure snake oil BS.

/end off topic

I'd like to ask the theists a question. Is what bothers you about non theists that they question your faith? Or that when they do it, they are idiots about it. I mean.. I sort of get a sense of this:
I don't mind gays. Just be quiet, sit down and don't kiss in my outdoor space.

It seems people don't mind us until we speak about our beliefs, our rights, our perspective. Then suddenly we are assholes because we showed our existence.

As an atheist I have the same right to be obnoxious as the theists are. Especially this time of year. It seems theists don't mind the non ones until about it's time to 'celebrate' something theists think is specifically theirs.

Yeah. This. In a more academic way. But I'm full of pizza and chocolate.

I'm not sure if I really count as theist. I mean, I definitely don't in a traditional sort of way--at best, I suppose I'm an agnostic pantheist with soft polytheistic tendencies. But, I could care less if a non-theist questions my religious and spiritual ideas--I question them on a regular basis. I do, however, mind if people are (theist or nontheist) rude about their beliefs, particularly in a way that belittles another's beliefs. Even more, I despise it when a person that is in a place of privilege uses their faith (or lack off it) to harass or intimidate someone else.

I've seen an adult atheist, for example, harass a kid for their religious beliefs until the kid was in tears. I've also seen an adult Christian do the same thing to a child that is not. I hate assholes...so lets just say that they both got a taste of their own medicine from someone old enough to stand up for themselves. Honestly, I see it as bullying and a sign of incompetent thought and lack of confidence/sincerity of belief/non-belief. AFAIC, these people want to bully others for their spirituality (or lack thereof), either as a justification of their own faith, or to fill in the chinks of doubt in their fortress of dogma, or because it gets their rocks off. Either way, they can kiss my cookies.

So, in Thalassa-world, it works like this...if someone is willing to discuss their beliefs in an equal exchange of information and ideas or to have a constructively critical comparison of religious beliefs, that's frigging awesome. If not, STFU because I don't give a flying rat's patootie.

[Cobra]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

What is the trouble with nihilism? After all, we can't prove that there even IS a meaning to life, we all just assign our own meanings to it, or subscribe to theories given to us by religious texts, or don't care enough to bother... Nihilism does not have to indicate an unhappy, meaningless life. My only REAL trouble with nihilism is when the "moral" aspects are thrown away as an excuse to get away with intentional cruelty -- but nihilism itself does not suggest cruelty. That lies within the person prescribed to the theory and tells more about them than nihilism.

Well, I think you and B. de Corbin sort of answered this one for me.

[Orecha]

Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

I'd like to ask the theists a question. Is what bothers you about non theists that they question your faith? Or that when they do it, they are idiots about it. I mean.. I sort of get a sense of this:
I don't mind gays. Just be quiet, sit down and don't kiss in my outdoor space.

It seems people don't mind us until we speak about our beliefs, our rights, our perspective. Then suddenly we are assholes because we showed our existence.

As an atheist I have the same right to be obnoxious as the theists are. Especially this time of year. It seems theists don't mind the non ones until about it's time to 'celebrate' something theists think is specifically theirs.

Yeah. This. In a more academic way. But I'm full of pizza and chocolate.

I've got no problem with people speaking their minds in a public forum, and I'd never call someone an asshole just for that. Nothing bothers me at all when people of other religious backgrounds, theist or otherwise, question my "faith," as long as they do so with calmness and respect. In fact, I welcome it! It often helps me question myself and make sure I'm doing what I believe is right.

The problem is, there is a BIG difference between speaking your mind and proselytizing, and that is what many atheists and antitheists do, whether they want to see it that way or not. Pushing conversion to another's view through coercion, insults, and the deconstruction of the other's view points in a disrespectful fashion is proselytizing, no mater who is doing it. If your viewpoint is truly worthy of someone adopting it, it should be able to stand on its own merit. You shouldn't have to run the other person's views through the mud, insult them as a person, or threaten them in any way. No one has the right to be obnoxious. No one has the right to put down another's religion or lack there of, no matter what time of year it is.

Unfortunately, it seems that many atheists and antitheists don't know where the line is between healthy discourse and outright insult (not that I'm saying all theists do, because many definitely do not). When a person questions another's beliefs, it should be with respect, not scorn. And don't think that just because another group behaves like a bunch of assholes that it suddenly gives you the right. If you truly believe your viewpoint to be higher and loftier, then act like it. As the saying goes, you attract more flies with honey. If you act like an asshole, that's all people hear: They don't hear your point, just that you're being a total dick.

----

I think one of the biggest issues between theists and atheists/antitheists is that often both groups see the existence of the other as some sort of threat. Beyond the antitheist spiel about religion causing all of the wars in the world, there is often a subconscious dialog that goes on between atheists and theists (or between theists of different traditions) when they are in a room together. "If I believe X and they don't, then what does that say about what I believe?" Or "If I don't believe X and they do, then what does that say?" This almost always happens subconsciously, though occasionally it is a conscious thought. Rational humans question their beliefs constantly, whether they realize it or not. The only possible exceptions are zealots and the insane.

The problem comes when the person thinking these thoughts goes through a moment of cognitive dissonance, when they are brought to question their own beliefs and realize that the two competing systems are mutually exclusive. One of two possibilities occurs at this point: a healthy questioning of one's own core values or an explosive expression of willful ignorance. The latter of the two is what usually results in a fight.

As a non-meat eater, I face this all of the time. Someone will offer me a meat dish, and I will respond, "No thank you. I don't eat meat." I phrase it that way for a reason. If I say that I'm a vegetarian, there's almost always a presupposed ideology that comes with it. Unfortunately, the same presupposed ideology comes with saying that you don't eat meat. People react as if you just shot their mother in the face. "What do you mean you don't eat meat?" Then there's the theist/nontheist divide, but it always boils down to either "animals were put here for us to eat..." or "we're the top of the food chain..." I tend to avoid the conversation at this point, but the reaction is often rather violent, insulting, and always unprovoked. Innocent theists and nontheists alike get it from the more belligerent and ignorant of the opposite side of the fence as well. It's an unfortunate side effect of the increasing forced binary in western culture (especially the US), and yes, it's the primary reason many people outside of any binary in that system are attacked, from libertarians to gender-queer.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not sure if you're referring to people here or just speaking generally, because I haven't seen anyone here claim that atheists bother them inherently, People have already summed up what's generally found to be irritating behavior on the part of atheists. I think the general theme has been that they have nothing against atheists as long as they're respectful about it.

Exactly my point!