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    #31
    Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

    Orecha has a good point and a good metaphor there. It's like a the vegetarian/carnivore debate.

    I eat meat but I was a vegetarian for years, so I've seen this one from both sides. As a vegetarian, often you are surrounded by those militant vegans who are naked, throwing paint on people, screaming meat is murder. But most vegetarians just want to eat their beans in peace. Seriously.

    Most carnivores couldn't care less what you eat. Don't want steak? Awesome, more for me, but they do get twitchy when some throws paint on them and tells them they are a murderer. But some carnivores run around shouting about how all vegetarians are going to get fat and die and they sounds like idiots.

    So eventually, both sides get touchy. They just assume the other side of the debate is batshit nuts because that's the vocal minority everyone sees, because you can't miss them.

    (This is leaving out the zealots; the paint flingers and meat throwing crazy people)

    Don't even get me started on the dichotomy of the liberal/conservative mindsets. Holy toast, batman.

    Thing is, you sit down and TALK to a person and you discover they are pretty alright. It's why I love this place. I adore people I never thought I would, considering the hype around their beliefs. But if you get through the BS, there's probably still a person under there worth knowing...or not.

    These us vs. them spats seem to be herd mentality at its finest, no matter how smart you think you are on either side of the fence, you are still just grazing on the fodder of rhetoric.

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      #32
      Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

      Originally posted by Orecha View Post
      As a non-meat eater, I face this all of the time. Someone will offer me a meat dish, and I will respond, "No thank you. I don't eat meat." I phrase it that way for a reason. If I say that I'm a vegetarian, there's almost always a presupposed ideology that comes with it. Unfortunately, the same presupposed ideology comes with saying that you don't eat meat. People react as if you just shot their mother in the face. "What do you mean you don't eat meat?" Then there's the theist/nontheist divide, but it always boils down to either "animals were put here for us to eat..." or "we're the top of the food chain..." I tend to avoid the conversation at this point, but the reaction is often rather violent, insulting, and always unprovoked. Innocent theists and nontheists alike get it from the more belligerent and ignorant of the opposite side of the fence as well. It's an unfortunate side effect of the increasing forced binary in western culture (especially the US), and yes, it's the primary reason many people outside of any binary in that system are attacked, from libertarians to gender-queer.
      I feel your pain.

      This type of situation is a large part of why I am often hesitant to even mention that I am an atheist in real life.

      Telling people that you are a non-believer is often a quick way to find yourself in an argument.

      Despite the things that I have said in this thread, I am not out to convert people away from religion... and in 99% of situations, I'm not even interested in discussing religion. As a result, most of the people who know me in real life are unaware of my atheism... but when it happens to come up ("where do you go to church?" "I don't" "what are you some kind of atheist, or something?" "yes, I am")... it rarely is pleasant. Much like your "I don't eat meat" conversations.
      "Don't ever miss a good opportunity to shut up." - Harvey Davis "Gramps"

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        #33
        Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

        Originally posted by ThorsSon View Post
        I feel your pain.

        This type of situation is a large part of why I am often hesitant to even mention that I am an atheist in real life.

        Telling people that you are a non-believer is often a quick way to find yourself in an argument.

        Despite the things that I have said in this thread, I am not out to convert people away from religion... and in 99% of situations, I'm not even interested in discussing religion. As a result, most of the people who know me in real life are unaware of my atheism... but when it happens to come up ("where do you go to church?" "I don't" "what are you some kind of atheist, or something?" "yes, I am")... it rarely is pleasant. Much like your "I don't eat meat" conversations.
        Agreed. I feel that, for the most part, on here and in real life, the problem with atheism and agnosticism comes as soon as we state our reasoning for believing (or disbelieving) the way we do, which is interpreted as an attack. Well, yes and no, because obviously I think everyone is wrong, including my own personal beliefs, but as soon as that tidbit comes up, I'm defined as an asshole (that much more in real life than on here, but I have experienced that as well in both places) for speaking up in the first place. Which, to me, makes absolutely no sense at all because the very words used imply that either none of them exist, or that proof is unknowable. So, yeah. -_-

        However, perhaps I invite it. I like to argue. I like conflict. But I don't think it makes much sense to rail against people being what they are, especially when there are no facts to spew on either side.
        No one tells the wind which way to blow.

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          #34
          Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

          Religion is not the most important thing about a person. So I would rather discuss other things that actually matter. In the end we are all just going day by day. The religious beliefs rarely make a real definitive appearance in most of us anyways.
          Satan is my spirit animal

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            #35
            Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

            Originally posted by Medusa View Post
            I'd like to ask the theists a question. Is what bothers you about non theists that they question your faith? Or that when they do it, they are idiots about it. I mean.. I sort of get a sense of this:
            I don't mind gays. Just be quiet, sit down and don't kiss in my outdoor space.
            Atheists and anti-theists don't bother me at all.

            People trying to push their beliefs down my throat bother me, and that is most certainly not limited to atheists and anti-theists. If I'm perfectly honest I see that a lot more from pagan people than I do anyone else.

            As others have said, there's a difference between discussion and debate, and proselytizing and pushing beliefs on another person. I'm all for discussion... not such a fan of being force-fed.

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              #36
              Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

              Originally posted by Medusa View Post
              I'd like to ask the theists a question. Is what bothers you about non theists that they question your faith? Or that when they do it, they are idiots about it.
              Non theists don't bother me any more or less than other theists do. People being assholes about anything bothers me, and I tend to find this is driven more by their personalities than their beliefs, or lack thereof.

              I am another one who enjoys having my beliefs questioned, if it is done in the spirit of healthy debate. I question my beliefs all the time so other people doing the same doesn't threaten me in any way.
              http://thefeministpagan.blogspot.co.uk/

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                #37
                Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

                Originally posted by Bjorn View Post

                Experiences? Stories? For the brave theists, got any horror stories? Does the very idea of atheism/agnosticism/anti-theism bother you and if so, why? Do you feel personally attacked when someone disagrees with you -- if so, why?
                About a month or two before finishing my tenth class, I was sitting with two or three of my classmates playing cards (we had nothing to do during the break - so cards just for fun). Before we took our places, one of them noticed a bible book on the table, and threw it out of the window. And he is atheist. He just sat and giggled. Of course I didn't keep my mouth shut about this.... I don't follow Judaism myself, but I still respect the religion as such.
                I don't have anything against atheists, as long as they don't act with stupidity.

                98% of the atheists I know are nice people. I can say even awesome. But there will be always the 2%....

                About feeling personally attacked - it depends on how the person shows it. If it's in a rude way of course I will be feeling attacked. If it's polite - no problem.
                Another situation is when I am being forced by a religion but that's for another time.
                "Fair means that everybody gets what they need. And the only way to get that is to make it happen yourself."



                Since I adore cats, I might write something strange or unusual in my comment.Cats are awesome!!! ^_^

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                  #38
                  Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

                  Didn't know this thread existed

                  Yeah, I'm a non-believing kind of atheist that figures what you believe is your business until you make it my business. Once you've made it my business, as long as you're polite I will be to. As soon as you state (or imply) that I'm too stupid to recognize God, the gloves come off and I treat you like a 3rd grader. That's how I roll

                  Books are probably the closest thing you can come to "sacred" for me. Any destruction of any book is a damned travesty - I do not care how many "copies" there are.

                  I'm not a fan of anti-theists. I appreciate their stance of course, but I cannot agree with it. One of the biggest complaints that I hear from Atheists about believers is how the believers supposedly know what the atheists "need"...and when atheists start being anti-theism they've become hypocrites.

                  What religions bother me? Any that either through force or deception leave you less capable of making your own decisions. I know that's broad, but that's how I feel about it. If they "convince" you that you shouldn't make your own decisions - say, because God should make your decisions for you - then you are granting another person the right to decide your fate. If you want that? Well, I can't stop you.

                  Honestly, what bothers me the most is "knowing deception". I completely don't mind a priest (or whoever) telling me "I don't know", but telling me that my family getting slaughtered as part of "God's plan" doesn't help anyone. I would rather hear "I don't know" than a blatant (or not so blatant) lie. That's why "religions" like JWs and Scientology rub me so hard the wrong way - these are two groups that have, over the course of the years, decided that the best way to not have to explain their religion is to not explain it.

                  I'm not a fan of oppression in any regard - I find sexism to be as repulsive as bigotry (although I do admit to enjoying some of the jokes of both of them) - and I find religion to be supremely repressive in that regard. People are frequently told to ignore their common sense and experience - enough so that they often refuse to accept what they already know to be true.

                  That being said, I do see the utility in religion, as long as people are still "allowed" (Ie, with a lack of brainwashing) to make their own decisions.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

                    Sadly, atheism and anti-theism bothers me. I would be totally fine with atheists if not every atheist I've met had a sprinkling of anti-theism in their opinion. The most common insult is that I lack an education, that I'm an extremist, and that I am mentally handicapped in some way. That is what I get from all the atheists I interact with, online and offline. Hell, I've had better run-ins with Christians than Atheists Anti-Theists. To put it in perspective, I had a lovely conversation with a Jehovah's Witness (Invited him into my living room! It was winter) and I didn't feel offended at all. However, when I sit down with any atheist, instead of giving me reasons as to why they believe what they believe, examples, whatnot... They resort to slander without any sort of positive reinforcement.

                    It doesn't help that I have more in common with a housefly than an atheist. I'm a jumble of labels that get me into a very bad mess: Neo-Wiccan, Pro-Life, Pro-Death Penalty, and Angelolator. (This label causes me more grief than any other. Yes, even Pro-Life.)

                    I'm fine with people saying I will go to Hell, because that is a spiritual idea I do not believe in. However, it hurts immensely when Atheists use the "You won't amount to anything because you're a theist" line. That's because it attacks my intelligence, my self-worth, my life, and my spirituality.


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                      #40
                      Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

                      Originally posted by WinterTraditions View Post
                      Sadly, atheism and anti-theism bothers me. I would be totally fine with atheists if not every atheist I've met had a sprinkling of anti-theism in their opinion. The most common insult is that I lack an education, that I'm an extremist, and that I am mentally handicapped in some way. That is what I get from all the atheists I interact with, online and offline. Hell, I've had better run-ins with Christians than Atheists Anti-Theists. To put it in perspective, I had a lovely conversation with a Jehovah's Witness (Invited him into my living room! It was winter) and I didn't feel offended at all. However, when I sit down with any atheist, instead of giving me reasons as to why they believe what they believe, examples, whatnot... They resort to slander without any sort of positive reinforcement.

                      It doesn't help that I have more in common with a housefly than an atheist. I'm a jumble of labels that get me into a very bad mess: Neo-Wiccan, Pro-Life, Pro-Death Penalty, and Angelolator. (This label causes me more grief than any other. Yes, even Pro-Life.)

                      I'm fine with people saying I will go to Hell, because that is a spiritual idea I do not believe in. However, it hurts immensely when Atheists use the "You won't amount to anything because you're a theist" line. That's because it attacks my intelligence, my self-worth, my life, and my spirituality.
                      Interesting reply -- I had to comment.

                      Yes, I would admit that there is a persuasion of anti-theism coursing through my veins. After all, I think religion and theism are harmful to society and have done little more than oppress women and kill young men in the name of holy war (I use the Bible and history books to compile these feelings though I am aware that there are many theistic religions that have killed less than the Judeo-Christian), but I try very hard to maintain the idea of "hate the belief, not the believer."

                      I've met my fair share of dickhead atheists that seem to think that atheism is proof of their intelligence. Atheism isn't proof of anything. It simply states that you don't believe in gods -- THAT'S IT. To think that someone couldn't simply be nice and engage in a discussion with someone who believes differently is embarrassing and on behalf of all agnostic atheists, I apologize. After all, there's a wealth of scientific research to support atheism so I don't know why the 'attack' has to be led with the same type of blind faith in an idea as what they're trying to argue against.

                      I'm sure that last line ruffled your feathers but please know I'm not being condescending. It is, however, difficult to discuss these topics with theists since there is no scientific research to support the idea. I've looked. In MY experience, every theist I talk to relies on faith and unverified personal gnosis in order to try and relate to me their interpretation of god, so that's usually where the condescension begins. No evidence? No research? No credible way for us to recreate the experiment and get the same results? Well, ok then. To someone who needs more than a feeling, these claims all start to sound like children retelling dreams.
                      No one tells the wind which way to blow.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

                        Hundreds of years of religious wars raging across Europe, to say nothing of the Middle East.

                        Crusades and Jihads.

                        Flat out oppression of those who don't buy in to the holy song and dance.

                        Promotion of ignorance over knowledge, with ignorance masquerading as wisdom.

                        The promotion of death for nothing, euphemistically referred to as "martyrhood."

                        Accepting babble on "faith" because it comes from old books, rather than using personal experience and experimentation.

                        Dewy eyed mush heads imagining that it will be all better when we're dead, rather than working to improve the here-and-now.

                        Men, women and children sacrificed to appease imaginary monsters of worship.

                        Thousands of years of guilt over normal bodily functions.

                        Vast quantities of cash wasted in an orgy of religious infrastructure.

                        There is a lot to dislike in the religion scam.

                        I'd like to say "I don't care, as long as you don't bother me with your goofiness," but everything on this list affects me, either directly or indirectly.

                        However, as an atheist, I never bother anybody (except when I speak). So I am evil incarnated, and damned proud of it.
                        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

                          Originally posted by WinterTraditions View Post
                          Sadly, atheism and anti-theism bothers me. I would be totally fine with atheists if not every atheist I've met had a sprinkling of anti-theism in their opinion.
                          Not that I can say I'm surprised...a lot of people - believers and non - are incapable of a decent presentation.

                          Originally posted by WinterTraditions View Post
                          The most common insult is that I lack an education, that I'm an extremist, and that I am mentally handicapped in some way.
                          I don't know you well enough to say one way or another, but I do admit that I have felt that way about *some* believers, and I've told them so. I always have a reason though, so if I did it to you and you asked me I explained

                          Originally posted by WinterTraditions View Post
                          That is what I get from all the atheists I interact with, online and offline. Hell, I've had better run-ins with Christians than Atheists Anti-Theists. To put it in perspective, I had a lovely conversation with a Jehovah's Witness (Invited him into my living room! It was winter) and I didn't feel offended at all.
                          This is because Jehovas Witnesses aren't showing up at your house to make you feel better, they're there to "sell" you on their religion. They aren't going to be rude or mean, and honestly you won't even get the actual JW teachings in those visits - you'll get a watered down "more paletable" version...it's part of the sales pitch. Atheists don't care if you buy what they're selling, so they frequently don't care about presentation at all - figuring that hitting you with their version of a Bible is the way to get you to understand where they're coming from.

                          Originally posted by WinterTraditions View Post
                          However, when I sit down with any atheist, instead of giving me reasons as to why they believe what they believe, examples, whatnot... They resort to slander without any sort of positive reinforcement.
                          I can't answer for anyone but myself. If you have questions for me, ask...I'll try not to be any more rude than necessary

                          Originally posted by WinterTraditions View Post
                          It doesn't help that I have more in common with a housefly than an atheist. I'm a jumble of labels that get me into a very bad mess: Neo-Wiccan, Pro-Life, Pro-Death Penalty, and Angelolator. (This label causes me more grief than any other. Yes, even Pro-Life.)
                          Personally I don't care about labels much...I've been through plenty of religions and I don't think there's a whole lot left for them to teach me. Of course, I'm always waiting to be proven wrong...

                          Originally posted by WinterTraditions View Post
                          I'm fine with people saying I will go to Hell, because that is a spiritual idea I do not believe in. However, it hurts immensely when Atheists use the "You won't amount to anything because you're a theist" line. That's because it attacks my intelligence, my self-worth, my life, and my spirituality.
                          That sounds like a completely bullshit Atheist to me. Anyone that pays attention to, you know, the facts, knows damned well that religion has NEVER had any sort of correlation with success, not even slightly.

                          So I would say you're talking to Atheists that don't know what in the fuck they're talking about. Feel free to ask questions in the various Atheist threads - nobody will jump your shit for honest questions (and if you're concerned that you may get that response, say so in your post - we'll be extra careful to not offend...unless you're acting like you want to be offended )

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                            #43
                            Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

                            Honeyed words come from salesmen.

                            Listen to unpleasant voices before you form opinions.
                            Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

                              Originally posted by WinterTraditions View Post
                              To put it in perspective, I had a lovely conversation with a Jehovah's Witness (Invited him into my living room! It was winter) and I didn't feel offended at all. However, when I sit down with any atheist, instead of giving me reasons as to why they believe what they believe, examples, whatnot... They resort to slander without any sort of positive reinforcement.
                              The reasons for this are simple. You've met LOTS of atheists, it's just that most of them are just people living their lives. People who broadcast their religion or lack thereof have ulterior motives or they're just being obnoxious asshats.

                              The JW wanted to convert you, the atheists probably just had a beef with religion and they're taking it out on you.

                              Also, what is an Angelolater?
                              Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Re: Atheism vs Anti-theism

                                Originally posted by Bjorn View Post
                                Interesting reply -- I had to comment.

                                Yes, I would admit that there is a persuasion of anti-theism coursing through my veins. After all, I think religion and theism are harmful to society and have done little more than oppress women and kill young men in the name of holy war (I use the Bible and history books to compile these feelings though I am aware that there are many theistic religions that have killed less than the Judeo-Christian), but I try very hard to maintain the idea of "hate the belief, not the believer."

                                I'm sure that last line ruffled your feathers but please know I'm not being condescending. It is, however, difficult to discuss these topics with theists since there is no scientific research to support the idea. I've looked. In MY experience, every theist I talk to relies on faith and unverified personal gnosis in order to try and relate to me their interpretation of god, so that's usually where the condescension begins. No evidence? No research? No credible way for us to recreate the experiment and get the same results? Well, ok then. To someone who needs more than a feeling, these claims all start to sound like children retelling dreams.
                                It's not religion that kills people. It's men. I will use the attacks the USA has done on the Middle East as an example. They are not pushing a religion of any kind, they are attacking religion itself, 'terrorists', and some say it's for the benefit of oil. Religion is just one of many motives for war and killing. It's not the be-all-end-all. Religion would be helpful to society if it wasn't people who screwed it up.

                                I think the opposite of what you're trying to maintain: I hate the believer, not the belief.

                                As for your line on scientific evidence... There are many things besides religion that cannot call on scientific evidence, and are instead backed by interpretation and experience. Restaurants, for example. Technically, you cannot base how good a restaurant is based on how much things cost, or how many sales they make. Rather, it is by word of mouth via positive experience.

                                Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                                Hundreds of years of religious wars raging across Europe, to say nothing of the Middle East.

                                Crusades and Jihads.

                                Flat out oppression of those who don't buy in to the holy song and dance.

                                Promotion of ignorance over knowledge, with ignorance masquerading as wisdom.

                                The promotion of death for nothing, euphemistically referred to as "martyrhood."

                                Accepting babble on "faith" because it comes from old books, rather than using personal experience and experimentation.

                                Dewy eyed mush heads imagining that it will be all better when we're dead, rather than working to improve the here-and-now.

                                Men, women and children sacrificed to appease imaginary monsters of worship.

                                Thousands of years of guilt over normal bodily functions.

                                Vast quantities of cash wasted in an orgy of religious infrastructure.

                                There is a lot to dislike in the religion scam.

                                I'd like to say "I don't care, as long as you don't bother me with your goofiness," but everything on this list affects me, either directly or indirectly.

                                However, as an atheist, I never bother anybody (except when I speak). So I am evil incarnated, and damned proud of it.
                                The crusades? There were several crusades, as you probably know.. The crusades was when Muslims overtook Jerusalem, and the Pope wanted to retake the holy city. How? He had his soldiers fast and pray and march outside Jerusalem. And they succeeded. They took back Jerusalem without bloodshed. That is how Christianity is supposed to work. When the Muslims took it back a second time, however, they were unable to get it back (Most likely because a different Pope was in charge.) By the fourth Crusades, the church only had enough money to get the soldiers half-way to Jerusalem. They stopped in the city their ship stranded them in. The only way they could continue was if they had money. However, the current King of that city was not the rightful heir. The prince promised that if the crusaders helped him get back the throne, he would give them money and more soldiers. So, the crusaders helped. When the Prince overthrew his uncle, however, the Prince did not keep his promise. That's why the sack on the city happened. The soldiers were stuck far away from their homes and families, starving, and they needed the money the prince promised to at least get back home. They lost their morals as a result, and they were not ordered by the Pope to do what they did. They acted as human beings, not religious followers.

                                Originally posted by Roknrol View Post

                                Anyone that pays attention to, you know, the facts, knows damned well that religion has NEVER had any sort of correlation with success, not even slightly.
                                That's a pretty bold statement. Please read above on my post concerning the First Crusade. I will then point you in the direction of Shintoism and Buddhism in Japan. To my knowledge, no wars have started from either religion, and nobody has killed under the name of those religions.

                                Originally posted by Denarius View Post

                                Also, what is an Angelolater?
                                An angelolator practices angelolatry, which is the worship of angels.


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