Reincarnations - Start and Finish

[Geriand]

Hello, everyone! First time posing here, so I do apologise if I've posted this in the wrong forum!

Regarding incarnations, it's seems to be generally accepted in the pagan community (though I've seen some people that don't subscribe to the theory of reincarnation) that everyone/thing reincarnates after they die.

But there are two key parts of reincarnation theory that I've not found written about or theorised:

Firstly, when or why souls/spirits come into existence. Is there a reason why souls are created? Do the gods Themselves create individual or certain souls? Do souls just come into being?

Secondly, and more curiously... is there a point when souls/spirits 'die'? Is there a point when a soul/spirit has its last incarnation, then stops being incarnated? What happens to the soul afterwards? Does it return to some primordial soup? Does it enter the service of a venerated deity?

The only theories regarding reincarnation I've been able to find are regarding Moksha and rebirth in Buddhism, but they both bring me to a situation that seems to conflict with general Pagan beliefs.

Being incarnated and reincarnation, from what I've seen, read, and heard, are generally held as being GOOD things in the Pagan community, while reincarnation and incarnation tends to be viewed in a very negative manner in Eastern religions. This opposition of a key belief seems to be... well, it's always just sort of stuck out for me. I'm not sure what to make of it, but I'm sort of conflicted by it. The negative view of incarnation and being/self seems to be... well, almost contradictory to general Pagan beliefs.

I have pondered doing some meditations and dowsing on these questions, but I've encountered instances before of different people getting different answers on the same question. I have faith in dowsing, but it makes me wonder how to get the most accurate answer to these questions about incarnation/reincarnation. What might be a 'yes' for one person might be a 'no' for another.

The only way I can think of to get the most accurate answers for these questions would be for a group of people to independently dowse for the answers and submit the results in private; this would prevent any subconscious influencing. How to get something like that going is a puzzle to me. The alternative would be for me to do a bunch of dowsing, then get a group to dowse (responding with a poll, perhaps?) for whether the answers I have recieved regarding reincarnation are correct or not. Less effort for others!

I would really appreciate it anyone here can shed any light on these questions, be personal opinion, previous research, general theories, or so forth!

Blessed be!
Geriand

[Cobra]

Re: Reincarnations - Start and Finish

I'm not sure I'd say that most pagans believe in reincarnation. It could also depend on the tradition.

There was recently a thread under Ceremonies & Practices asking where reincarnation fit into people's beliefs. Granted, it was not a poll, but from perusing that thread I got the impression that people were divided into thirds - unsure, yes, and no - pretty evenly.

Furthermore, reincarnation being a negative or positive thing among pagans might be a more personal issue. Some find it comforting or inspiring while others are horrified at the thought. Also, how do you get that eastern religions have a "negative" view of reincarnation? I'm not sure how it's viewed in Buddhism but I know that in Hinduism it is generally believed that one reincarnates until they have reached priesthood. And in Taoism and Shinto it is usually simply believed that the soul lives on after death. I have found that this sort of belief, in a "spirit world" afterlife, is also very common and I always thought it was the most common.

[Aeran]

Re: Reincarnations - Start and Finish

Firstly, let me qualify this by saying that this is only my own speculation as to what seems likely, primarily informed by hermetic philosophy and also to a lesser degree by eastern philosophy. I'm not claiming any of this as any kind of truth, just an individual understanding of a phenomenon that I quite freely admit may not exist (at least in the form commonly understood).

For your first question - if you take the view that souls do not only reincarnate as humans, but rather start out as other spirits, elementals, or animals etc. Then it seems quite likely that the process began several million - billion years ago. This would give spirits time to develop and evolve as animal life, then humankind, slowly appear. Beyond that, I don't think there's much that can be said about the specifics about how human awareness and 'souls' emerged without a deep exegesis of various religious texts, which is quite beyond me. This is just rough guesswork though.

As for the second, hermetic philosophy (and many eastern systems) hold that the cycle of reincarnation ends when one achieves a certain degree of enlightenment (the terminology for which varies). Over many lifetimes, the soul learns, suffers and develops until it gradually achieves a greater understanding of individual existence and begins to feel a yearning for greater unity with the divine. At this point, either within one lifetime or over many, it will gradually gravitate towards spiritual practice, eventually achieving enough development and illumination to be able to break free of the cycle of rebirth, once this happens, the soul will maintain it's memories and individuality upon death, instead of undergoing the 'second death' and being reborn into the world. This isn't the end though, the soul still has greater development to undergo, which can take place in higher planes of existence, although the soul may still elect to incarnate back into the physical world voluntarily to aid in the evolution of other souls. Eventually, the soul achieves greater development and purification and grows tired of individual existence and may choose to ascend entirely, dissolving his consciousness into total union with the divine.

The attitude towards this process depends on the cultural climate in which a particular philosophy develops. In regions of the world or historical periods in which there is a great deal of warfare, suffering, famine, plague, poverty, etc. This process is likely to be viewed negatively, and be seen as something to break free from at the earliest moment. In those philosophies which developed in less afflicted portions of humanity, a more relaxed attitude is taken which views physical existence as something akin to a school - it can be unpleasant and limiting, and you wouldn't want to stay there forever, but it is also educational and contains many positive experiences, and as such is something to learn from and enjoy your time with, although never losing sight of the fact that you will eventually grow past it and desire to leave. You can see this correlation fairly easily if you look at the history of where and among which portion of the populace different philosophies emerged.

[blue_coyote]

Re: Reincarnations - Start and Finish

Hinduism's basics are that a soul is born and goes through its things and lives. Some say that to be born/given a human life is a rare thing and is something that should be exercised to the fullest in regards one's personal spiritual development and enlightenment. This is not measure via good vs. bad karma, because iron chains can just as easily be replaced by silver or gold ones. If a deity wants to ascend to a higher level then he/she would have to be born as a human because it is only as a human that the soul can grow.

Using the term "pagan" is extremely broad. Unless you're talking about country bumpkins across the world.

I will say that it depends on the tradition that is being followed. I think that most of our understandings of death are taught/learnt during some point in time. Sometimes they are experienced.

[Orecha]

Re: Reincarnations - Start and Finish

Firstly, when or why souls/spirits come into existence. Is there a reason why souls are created? Do the gods Themselves create individual or certain souls? Do souls just come into being?

My tradition generally speaks very little on the idea of an afterlife, but it has a concept of a multi-part soul (like many Near Eastern religions), of which only the upper two parts reincarnate. The lower components which don't reincarnate are created new every time a person is born.

There is very little reason given for why people have souls, though my tradition does state that humans did not have higher souls at first, but were bestowed these souls at some point by Y'howeh. Additionally, it seems, at least initially, that higher souls had to be earned. This was the case with the mortal Adam.

We also have a tradition that when two very special souls get together, occasionally a new higher soul is generated.

Secondly, and more curiously... is there a point when souls/spirits 'die'? Is there a point when a soul/spirit has its last incarnation, then stops being incarnated? What happens to the soul afterwards? Does it return to some primordial soup? Does it enter the service of a venerated deity?

My tradition believes that your soul can evolve beyond mortality. What happens after that is a bit of a mystery, however.

I hope that helps!