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Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

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    Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

    So I have seen some people on here talk about militant pagan friends of there's that hate Christians and think we should support persecution of them. So it made me think, do Pagans call holy wars or have they called one? I know sometimes I wish I could call Holy war on certain groups of people but then I remember they aren't all bad. Just let me know I am really curious now.

    #2
    Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

    Skipping the ethical issues of crusading against Christianity (of which there are many), I don't believe in suicide without a very good reason. Combining all Christian sects nets about 2.1 billion people and the largest religious block on this planet by several hundred million. Second place goes to either Atheism or Islam (can't remember) with Hinduism and Budhism (I think) rounding out the top 5. After that, you quickly start reaching numerical insignificance. Open war between people identifying as Pagans and Christianity tends to divide between WW3 and miniature poodle attacking a grizzly in results depending on if any sect sizeable enough to matter gets off its *** to help the people who've abandoned their senses. Frankly I'm lazy and can't be bothered to hold enough of a grudge against 38000 sects totalling in at 2.1 billion people to start a fight that will probably end in their boot planted so far up my rear that my great grandchildren's great grandchildren will have difficulty sitting down. As it stands, most of their energy is spent on other concerns and I have a nice large supply of atheists and moderate Christians checking the major ambitions of the idiots so I'll go worry about something else.
    life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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      #3
      Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

      Ancient Pagan religions had plenty of Holy Wars, but the world was quite different back then, and with many religions being tied to the running of the state, wars between two people were often inherently holy wars (and yes, this is in some cases, not all cases, and a vast over generalization, I know.) So there have been plenty of Pagan Holy Wars, "The Gods say we must attack so-and-so!" and then they did.

      Holy Wars, IMHO, are pretty dumb, whoever is doing them. As a Christian, I am totally against being persecuted, and others being persecuted, persecution as a thing is something I oppose in general, but there are a lot of Christians in the world, and a "Holy War" by Pagans on Christians at this point in time would not only be doomed, it would be suicide. There just aren't enough Pagans, and there are billions of Christians (literally, though I'd have to look up the exact numbers).

      Not to mention that war is something I'm generally opposed to anyways, and I'd say a Holy War would just be a bad idea.

      "Why can't we be friends, why can't we be friends, why can't we be friends, why can't we be frieeeeeeeeends?"
      hey look, I have a book! And look I have a second one too!

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        #4
        Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

        The number of Christians in the world has nearly quadrupled in the last 100 years, but they comprise about the same share (32%) of the population.


        I'm not looking up the study for that but number was 2.18 billion give or take going by PEW, Malflick.

        The 2.1 number I used earlier is from an older stat set (about 10 year difference I think).
        life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

        Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

        "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

        John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

        "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

        Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


        Comment


          #5
          Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

          Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
          http://www.pewresearch.org/daily-num...-stays-stable/

          I'm not looking up the study for that but number was 2.18 billion give or take going by PEW, Malflick.

          The 2.1 number I used earlier is from an older stat set (about 10 year difference I think).
          I forgot to check if there was already a reply before I posted . Thanks for the data sir! 2.18. Man. There are a lot of us 0_0!!!!
          hey look, I have a book! And look I have a second one too!

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

            Originally posted by Malflick View Post
            Ancient Pagan religions had plenty of Holy Wars, but the world was quite different back then, and with many religions being tied to the running of the state, wars between two people were often inherently holy wars (and yes, this is in some cases, not all cases, and a vast over generalization, I know.) So there have been plenty of Pagan Holy Wars, "The Gods say we must attack so-and-so!" and then they did.

            Holy Wars, IMHO, are pretty dumb, whoever is doing them. As a Christian, I am totally against being persecuted, and others being persecuted, persecution as a thing is something I oppose in general, but there are a lot of Christians in the world, and a "Holy War" by Pagans on Christians at this point in time would not only be doomed, it would be suicide. There just aren't enough Pagans, and there are billions of Christians (literally, though I'd have to look up the exact numbers).

            Not to mention that war is something I'm generally opposed to anyways, and I'd say a Holy War would just be a bad idea.

            "Why can't we be friends, why can't we be friends, why can't we be friends, why can't we be frieeeeeeeeends?"
            I never said I agreed with militant pagans.

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              #7
              Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

              I'm wondering which Pagan empires went to war because a deity told them to smite the believers of other deities (simply on the basis of that belief), and precisely what documents we are getting this information from.
              Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
              sigpic

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                #8
                Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

                Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                I'm wondering which Pagan empires went to war because a deity told them to smite the believers of other deities (simply on the basis of that belief), and precisely what documents we are getting this information from.
                Rome. A lot of Rome. Rome (specifically Caligula, if I recall right) tried to put Roman religious imagery in Jewish Temples -> war.

                Rome gets told by one of the Oracles to attack the Persians -> war.

                - - - Updated - - -

                I know people often turn their nose up, but I hope this suffices for a start:
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish%E2%80%93Roman_wars
                hey look, I have a book! And look I have a second one too!

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                  #9
                  Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

                  Originally posted by Malflick View Post
                  Rome. A lot of Rome. Rome (specifically Caligula, if I recall right) tried to put Roman religious imagery in Jewish Temples -> war.

                  Rome gets told by one of the Oracles to attack the Persians -> war.
                  I'm pretty sure that was more about politics...its been awhile since I've taken ancient history, and since I've read up on the subject, but most of Rome's wars were over empire expansion, which wasn't inherently religious. Roman imagery was religious, because they had religion of the state, an imperial cult...but expansion wasn't some sort of holy tenet. A holy war (IMO) is where group A (inspired by the perceived directive of their god) attacks group B (simply because they practice another faith)...I'm not sure that Rome counts.

                  A good discussion on this topic can be found (though imperfect) in Jonathan Kirsch's God agains the Gods
                  Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                  sigpic

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                    #10
                    Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

                    Not that I have ever heard of. I do believe in one holy war. It is not a war fought with weapons, physical violence, and inquisition. No. It is a battle between good and evil, justice and injustice, balance and unbalance, cruelty and compassion. It is the battle fought within the hearts of all humans. The battle for a better world that is waged with protests, acts of kindness, refusal of a decaying world order, and refusing to commit violence against your brothers and sisters over differences of skin color, ideology, gender, sexuality, and other such differences. They are signs one has chosen the many formed path of wisdom. Whenever someone stands up for the rights of others, that is a victory for good. This bloodless war of the heart is the only holy war I believe in.

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                      #11
                      Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

                      Originally posted by sirz345 View Post
                      So I have seen some people on here talk about militant pagan friends of there's that hate Christians and think we should support persecution of them. So it made me think, do Pagans call holy wars or have they called one? I know sometimes I wish I could call Holy war on certain groups of people but then I remember they aren't all bad. Just let me know I am really curious now.
                      OK, when I said sometimes I wish I could call Holy War I don't, I don't think I can, the concept of Holy War violates what I believe about others' right to choose religion. Usually when I am extremely angry I have that stupid thought, it is not a common thing.

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                        #12
                        Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

                        Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                        I'm pretty sure that was more about politics...its been awhile since I've taken ancient history, and since I've read up on the subject, but most of Rome's wars were over empire expansion, which wasn't inherently religious. Roman imagery was religious, because they had religion of the state, an imperial cult...but expansion wasn't some sort of holy tenet. A holy war (IMO) is where group A (inspired by the perceived directive of their god) attacks group B (simply because they practice another faith)...I'm not sure that Rome counts.
                        I agree with Thalassa here. Rome's motivations were never religious, they were political. Caesar invaded Gaul not because the Celts were worshiping the wrong gods, he did it to further his own political agenda. He thought conquering the Gauls would legitimize his claim to the throne, and he was right. I wouldn't exactly call that a holy war. Furthermore, after the Gallic Wars, the Celts were still allowed to worship their own gods (although they often did so in Romanized forms) and certain Gaulish deities even developed cults among the Romans themselves! As it stands, I don't know of a single pagan culture which has waged a war for religious reasons (i.e., a holy war).

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                          #13
                          Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

                          Hard for me to imagine how any war could be considered "holy"....but I know what you mean...it's just what sprung to mind.

                          My faith has no need, interest or reason to try to convert anyone, so there is no motivation.

                          If any sort of "war" would need to be fought, it would be to stop unjust behavior that others might do in the name of their faith, it would be a movement to address the behavior, not the beliefs.

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                            #14
                            Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

                            I'm sure all manner of people back in the day used to pray to their gods when they went into battle. But that doesn't make it a holy war.
                            ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

                            RIP

                            I have never been across the way
                            Seen the desert and the birds
                            You cut your hair short
                            Like a shush to an insult
                            The world had been yelling
                            Since the day you were born
                            Revolting with anger
                            While it smiled like it was cute
                            That everything was shit.

                            - J. Wylder

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                              #15
                              Re: Question; Do pagans believe in the concept of Holy War or have ever called one?

                              There's a difference between a Holy War in the sense it is usually used, and a war sanctioned by some divine element. Holy Wars are conflicts framed entirely around religion, often presented to the people as a war against the faith or religion of another people. Merely saying that a war is divinely sanctioned does not make it a holy war.

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