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    Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

    Personally I dislike missionary work in all forms of any faith, it destroys culture and many (not always) times are trained to play mind games to convince someone they need that faith not that the faith needs them. I view going out and pursuing converts as turning religion into a power game, which it should not be, it should be about faith and connection with your beliefs and feeling comfortable, pursuing converts really just seems like a way to get people on board until the world is all that religion so that that faith will control everyone in that world. One of the reasons I became Shinto is their is no mortal authority that can change basic Shinto articles or doctrine, and when faiths command their followers to "push out those that are not of your faith." that shows that these men in high positions push for missionary work because they want more converts to do whatever they want because "uh uh god said so, yeah god did!", when in reality in the case of Crusades for example, they are gaining political power by having these many people under you, the Pope was to be rewarded with the Holy Land as a Holy Kingdom, he wanted to gain land and he used his religion's faithful to get it, I see missionaries as being a way to get more people under your religion so they also can be manipulated. Not to mention it almost always attacks basic fundamentals of indigenous cultures, Greece for example, do you think as Hellenistic Greece they would start putting crosses on everything where marvelous paintings of gods once went (amazing artwork even if you're not Hellenistic), sacking their own cultural treasures because they were of a 'Heathen' faith, or destroying artwork by covering up genitalia with whatever happens to be lying around just because the Pope says it is sinful when in reality it is what makes Greece well Greek. Missionary work destroyed culture there and it has happened in many other places, I do not mind other faiths usually but when they condone missionary work that really irks me the wrong way.

    #2
    Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

    Can't you just post this in your I hate Mormons thread? Seriously. This isn't a blog on your hate of Mormons and everything Mormons. And if you say that's not what you are about, you should really re-think the two threads you've started.
    Satan is my spirit animal

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      #3
      Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

      My former fiance went on a mission trip. She built houses for the poor, helped teach children to read, and assisted child rape victims with getting medical care they wouldn't otherwise have had. She didn't do any of that to manipulate people, she did it out of the goodness of her heart.

      Just because someone is part of a faith that has wronged you doesn't make every one of their actions despicable.

      I condone missionary work. If helping people in need is wrong, I'd rather be wrong.

      I get it, people have been unfair to you. But you're lumping them and all of their actions into a big box and sealing it off. Other people have the right to live their lives in a different way than you.
      hey look, I have a book! And look I have a second one too!

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        #4
        Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

        Originally posted by Malflick View Post
        My former fiance went on a mission trip. She built houses for the poor, helped teach children to read, and assisted child rape victims with getting medical care they wouldn't otherwise have had. She didn't do any of that to manipulate people, she did it out of the goodness of her heart.
        It's very common where I live for various Christian groups to do that as well. To the best of my knowledge, they build much more than they preach.

        I can't see anything wrong with that, at all.
        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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          #5
          Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

          I have never know that is common in other Christian groups, I whole-heartedly apologize and withdraw my statement.

          - - - Updated - - -

          Originally posted by Medusa View Post
          Can't you just post this in your I hate Mormons thread? Seriously. This isn't a blog on your hate of Mormons and everything Mormons. And if you say that's not what you are about, you should really re-think the two threads you've started.
          Believe it or not Medusa, almost every religion has some kind of missionary work, I am not going to argue with you any further because it sounds to me that you're opinion will not change no matter what I tell you.

          - - - Updated - - -

          I am withdrawing from this thread and the theme of it, if a moderator sees this please delete the thread, as it serves no purpose other than taking up room.

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            #6
            Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

            Originally posted by sirz345 View Post
            I have never know that is common in other Christian groups, I whole-heartedly apologize and withdraw my statement.
            Its all good. Thanks for accepting you didn't have all the information in this case.
            hey look, I have a book! And look I have a second one too!

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              #7
              Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

              Originally posted by sirz345 View Post
              I have never know that is common in other Christian groups, I whole-heartedly apologize and withdraw my statement.
              Most groups that go on missions are actually there to do good. Sure, they preach a bit...but they are honestly there to build houses and dig wells and things.
              BUT. Some groups aren't. Some groups ARE only there to sell the locals their version of the Bible and their image of Jesus. They are, to be sure, a minority...but they do exist.

              Don't apologize about the latter groups, they are living down to your expectations...just know that there are folks out there that AREN'T like that, and work on being more accurate when you describe stuff. There are always exceptions...always (ever hear the saying "the only absolute is that there are no absolutes" or "the only absolute in the universe is absolute 0"---okay, maybe that one was just my corny organic chemistry professor). Saying things like "all", "always", "everyone", "never", "no one"...usually that is really lazy writing, because its too often not true. I'm (ETA: there should have been a NOT here) saying this to beat up on you--because I'm NOT saying this to beat up on you (see, this is what happens when I try to post while parenting), I'm saying this because communicating effectively in a forum setting requires a certain degree of precision to over-ride the lack of context and visual cues that you get from an IRL conversation, or even an online chat with someone you know.
              Last edited by thalassa; 24 Jan 2014, 16:35.
              Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                #8
                Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

                All religion is tricky,mainly because it tends to evolve over time.One reason for the "proselytizing" it seems from what I have garnered from people that follow this path in religion is that there is a "Belief" that YOUR personal path to heaven depends on how many others you can "Convert".
                MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

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                  #9
                  Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

                  It's a generally cheesy movie, but I'm reminded of Burt Wonderstone (which does have a few funny parts.

                  After the two "best friend" magicians break up, one goes on a "humanitarian tour" of third world countries. His idea of doing good is teaching magic tricks to the sick and hungry.

                  Later on in the movie, when asked if he did any good, he says something to the effect of "No. What they really needed was food and clean water."
                  Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                    #10
                    Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

                    Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                    It's a generally cheesy movie, but I'm reminded of Burt Wonderstone (which does have a few funny parts.

                    After the two "best friend" magicians break up, one goes on a "humanitarian tour" of third world countries. His idea of doing good is teaching magic tricks to the sick and hungry.

                    Later on in the movie, when asked if he did any good, he says something to the effect of "No. What they really needed was food and clean water."
                    Oh, brilliant! All the much more for being true...
                    Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                      #11
                      Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

                      Missionary help. Corporation help. Volunteer help all by yourself. It's all the same to the people needing help. Give us your aid and go away.
                      Satan is my spirit animal

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                        #12
                        Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

                        I support groups giving aid to those in need... even religious groups. But I don't like groups proselytizing, and I especially don't like groups proselytizing to villagers in third world countries. Which is unfortunately what happens when religious groups build and man schools in third world countries... invariably the 'education' involves preaching and conversion. Which facilitates the loss of indigenous and folk culture. Which I don't like. (Incidentally, I am ambivalent about many aid-systems in indigenous communities, for much the same reason).

                        Specifically relating to 'missionaries'. Not all missionaries are actually helping those in need. I don't know what it's like in other countries, but I dated a Mormon in high school and his 'mission' was to go to Japan, stay with a Japanese Mormon couple and walk the streets trying to convert people. The Mormons who come to your door here are called 'missionaries'... they aren't helping those in need, they are proselytizing. Some do community aid as a part of their missionary work, but for the most part, it's just an exchange program of walking the streets preaching to random homeowners.

                        On the other hand, my Christian workmate did some personal missionary work by doing a stint with Vets Beyond Borders in Mongolia. That was purely about helping those in need and improving communities, not proselytizing. She did it as a Christian, not as a vet... her motivation was that she felt it was her duty as a Christian to help those in need, and because she was a vet she chose that program as that was her skillset. I feel that's nothing but commendable.

                        So what do I think of missionaries? It depends on their purpose.

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                          #13
                          Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

                          Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                          I support groups giving aid to those in need... even religious groups. But I don't like groups proselytizing, and I especially don't like groups proselytizing to villagers in third world countries. Which is unfortunately what happens when religious groups build and man schools in third world countries... invariably the 'education' involves preaching and conversion. Which facilitates the loss of indigenous and folk culture. Which I don't like. (Incidentally, I am ambivalent about many aid-systems in indigenous communities, for much the same reason).
                          In some of these areas, they are already Christian...the die was cast some 100 years ago. The (as I've mentioned before) very progressive, very liberal church I was raised in, is still evangelical (evangelical in the original sense of the word--that one can find a personal salvation by faith in the atoning death of Jesus Christ, not the holy roller sort of way we've distorted it as). They go on mission trips--they go do charity work, as a group, and yeah, they will talk about their faith while they are there. In the mission my best friend at the time went on, they were invited by the local congregation and local families hosted them, and the work they did was in conjunction with secular aid agencies.
                          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                            #14
                            Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

                            Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                            I support groups giving aid to those in need... even religious groups. But I don't like groups proselytizing, and I especially don't like groups proselytizing to villagers in third world countries. Which is unfortunately what happens when religious groups build and man schools in third world countries... invariably the 'education' involves preaching and conversion. Which facilitates the loss of indigenous and folk culture. Which I don't like. (Incidentally, I am ambivalent about many aid-systems in indigenous communities, for much the same reason).

                            Specifically relating to 'missionaries'. Not all missionaries are actually helping those in need. I don't know what it's like in other countries, but I dated a Mormon in high school and his 'mission' was to go to Japan, stay with a Japanese Mormon couple and walk the streets trying to convert people. The Mormons who come to your door here are called 'missionaries'... they aren't helping those in need, they are proselytizing. Some do community aid as a part of their missionary work, but for the most part, it's just an exchange program of walking the streets preaching to random homeowners.

                            On the other hand, my Christian workmate did some personal missionary work by doing a stint with Vets Beyond Borders in Mongolia. That was purely about helping those in need and improving communities, not proselytizing. She did it as a Christian, not as a vet... her motivation was that she felt it was her duty as a Christian to help those in need, and because she was a vet she chose that program as that was her skillset. I feel that's nothing but commendable.

                            So what do I think of missionaries? It depends on their purpose.
                            The first paragraph is pretty much what my opinion is, and it does happen unfortunately, it really is the same reason I hate globalization, it is slowly making us into one uni-culture with no real cultural differences and nothing that makes our culture or background unique. I guess I see proselytizing as a form of globalization, and I fight globalization with every bit of effort in my body, that is the kind of mission I was trying to talk about, I know what you mean about the Mormon guy, I know a very devout LDS (he can be a bit much especially because almost every time I talk to him is ends up being about religion.) and he has a physical bucket list where he put down "Make 20 people into Latter-Day Saints." That is the kind of mission work that should be frowned upon, I think if all mission work was about helping people I would have no problem with mission work, but I can't stand to see people go to poor countries with beautiful cultures and they just want to proselytizing, not appreciate the people and culture there.

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                              #15
                              Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

                              Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                              In some of these areas, they are already Christian...the die was cast some 100 years ago. The (as I've mentioned before) very progressive, very liberal church I was raised in, is still evangelical (evangelical in the original sense of the word--that one can find a personal salvation by faith in the atoning death of Jesus Christ, not the holy roller sort of way we've distorted it as). They go on mission trips--they go do charity work, as a group, and yeah, they will talk about their faith while they are there. In the mission my best friend at the time went on, they were invited by the local congregation and local families hosted them, and the work they did was in conjunction with secular aid agencies.
                              Yep, and they are Christian because of the original missionaries that went there long before the current programs. As I said, I'm ambivalent about aid programs in indigenous communities. One one hand, they need the aid, but on the other hand, our version of 'aid' generally involves making them more 'civilised', giving them a 'better' diet, and 'educating' them by Western standards. The aid that is actually needed is education about local and sustainable farming and hunting practices, setting up clean water sources, sustainable medical care, and improving living conditions in line with the local environment and traditions.

                              A good example of Westerners making indigenous life 'better' is certain Northern European and Siberian circumpolar communities, where their hunting quota has been dropped and they are shipped carbohydrate rich Western foodstuffs to 'improve' their diet. We have made their lives 'better' by forcing them into eating a diet that a) is not local or natural to that environment, b) is completely alien to their community and digestive systems, and c) does not provide them with the fats they need to build resistance to the extreme cold, which their native diet did.

                              And don't even get me started on the problems that the settlers caused when they 'improved' the lives of the Australian Aborigines.

                              Yes, most of these things were kick started in times long past, but we're still seeing the negative effects of all this 'aid' that was given out. And modern aid programs haven't actually changed that much... we're still giving aid based on modern Western ideals, which is not necessarily what is best for the long term health and survival of the communities in question. Which makes the whole thing a great big double edged sword.

                              Missionaries are doing a lot of fantastic work in a lot of places. But I'm not convinced that it's the best work that we can be doing. Part of that is because of our misguided ideals. Part of it is because of funding. Part of it is the motives of the groups that are providing the aid. Part of it is the political climate of the countries involved. I don't think that missionaries should stop. And I don't think that there is an easy answer to improving the aid that we're giving.

                              There are a lot of great programs out there. There are some dodgy programs. And there are some programs that are a bit of both. I actually support World Vision on occasion (and I sponsored a child for several years), which is controversial in pagan circles, but their aid is often tied up in providing livestock and teaching sustainable farming practices. Which is better than simply handing out food packages. I like that saying about handing a man a fish vs teaching him how to fish for himself.

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