Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

[Ophidia]

Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

See in missionary the ha ha is on top of the hoo hoo
and lesbians don't like ha has attached to men.
They like hoo hoos
And ha has attatched to hoo hoos.

The end.

I think I need a diagram.

[Medusa]

Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

You do it and then you go to hell.
Or you burst into flames because apparently you were wearing pants made out of 70s cords.









I'm going to be in trouble, aren't i?:=I:

[ChainLightning]

Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

I'm mildly amused that a made-up phrase can become accepted enough to begin its own tangent. Outside of the above indicated diagram and graphic description, there is no such animal as "invasive missionary work". I made that up to show the obvious discontent with anything attached to the word "missionary".

The fact is, Christian missionaries are only a recent development, as far as religious pursuits, far out-paced, historically, by all but Judaism - which outright sneers at missionary work.

Which means, this new tirade isn't anything at all to do with missions, is it? It's Christians, that are so offensive, in this situation. I produced a list of other religions that have been involved in mission work, some for far longer than Christianity has been in existence, even. But they don't involve the teachings of Christ - so they don't count, right?

At which point, I should probably point out the end result to the last thread that was blatant Christian bashing.

And no, Medusa, no trouble. You actually were more on topic than you thought. Invasive. Bah.

[thalassa]

Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

The fact is, Christian missionaries are only a recent development, as far as religious pursuits, far out-paced, historically, by all but Judaism - which outright sneers at missionary work.

Which means, this new tirade isn't anything at all to do with missions, is it? It's Christians, that are so offensive, in this situation. I produced a list of other religions that have been involved in mission work, some for far longer than Christianity has been in existence, even. But they don't involve the teachings of Christ - so they don't count, right?

Not to mention...but ALL of this discussion, including the references to colonialism, etc...are things people will do, have done, and are doing--through out all of human history. I'm not saying that it makes it right, I'm just saying that to specifically pick out Western Culture and Christianity as the specific promulgators of all ills ignored the fact that the Incans did this to their neighboring people, various Chinese dynasties did this to neighboring people, the Huns did this to just about everyone, Alexander did this til he died, Cohokia was founded this way, and I could go on and on and on. It just so happens, that in *this* time and place, the "winner" was Christian Western European nations--(specifically) the Spanish, and English, and French, and Germans, and Dutch, and Portuguese.

All religion does is offer the excuse...

Its overly simplistic.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

This morning for my blog I received a rather offensive comment that most likely - by the content - came from someone who considers themselves a Xtian.
However this is not an attempt to convert me, not really. It's just very rude and bad manners. End of.

[sirz345]

Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

See in missionary the ha ha is on top of the hoo hoo
and lesbians don't like ha has attached to men.
They like hoo hoos
And ha has attatched to hoo hoos.

The end.

Well now I get it lol.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm mildly amused that a made-up phrase can become accepted enough to begin its own tangent. Outside of the above indicated diagram and graphic description, there is no such animal as "invasive missionary work". I made that up to show the obvious discontent with anything attached to the word "missionary".

The fact is, Christian missionaries are only a recent development, as far as religious pursuits, far out-paced, historically, by all but Judaism - which outright sneers at missionary work.

Which means, this new tirade isn't anything at all to do with missions, is it? It's Christians, that are so offensive, in this situation. I produced a list of other religions that have been involved in mission work, some for far longer than Christianity has been in existence, even. But they don't involve the teachings of Christ - so they don't count, right?

At which point, I should probably point out the end result to the last thread that was blatant Christian bashing.

And no, Medusa, no trouble. You actually were more on topic than you thought. Invasive. Bah.

You seem to not understand the difference between Christian bashing and not enjoying having Christianity shoved down your throat.
Also, I have a problem with cultural-destruction motivated by religion, which unfortunately missionary work is used to do, go ahead tell me that no aboriginal cultures have been destroyed by missionary work. http://makinghistoryatmacquarie.wordpress.com/2012/11/22/an-alternate-view-on-missionaries/

[ChainLightning]

Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

You seem to not understand the difference between Christian bashing and not enjoying having Christianity shoved down your throat.
Also, I have a problem with cultural-destruction motivated by religion, which unfortunately missionary work is used to do, go ahead tell me that no aboriginal cultures have been destroyed by missionary work. http://makinghistoryatmacquarie.word...-missionaries/

I won't say what you seem...



Taking a blog that mentions the admitted faults of the CMS, which is actually pretty small, comparatively speaking, as a source for evidencing destroyed aboriginal cultures is about like me linking to my blog on how people can make up their own facts, cite them in other arenas, and then use those same imaginings as bona fide proof that every single fact is nothing but random conjecture.

Meaning: your blog link proves nothing. Numerous posts, prior, have noted multiple belief systems that are significantly non-Christian, that have been doing mission work a hell of a lot longer than these ones you're ranting and raving about.

Which leads me to this understanding that you claim I don't possess. If you can provide the exact same argument against Mayans, Buddhists and a whole HOST of other traditional mission work, over the centuries, and stop focusing on just Christian missions, for a minute, THEN you will start displaying something less singularly abusive.

As is, you've not done that. Not once. Reading your diatribe it is painfully obvious that you have a loathing for a certain world view. Which is fine. You're entitled to be prejudiced in whatever manner you see fit. Your bigotry; your choice. I'm not infringing on that, at all. What I AM deeply concerned about is your insistence to do so on a pagan-based multi-faith forum, that welcomes people from ALL religions and walks of life. You make it incredibly difficult for any of our members to remain, that maintain a world view that you find contemptible. That. Annoys me. (FYI, that is not a good thing.)

Perhaps you could reread Thalassa's advice.

http://www.paganforum.com/showthread.php?7451-Missionary-Work-please-reply-and-Debate&p=130275&viewfull=1#post130275

Seriously. Unless this single-minded attack of just Christian missions is all you have to say about mission work (in which case, you might want to save those tirades for forums that may agree more with you, and despise one world religion or another, promoting hatred and bigotry) you should learn the forum's rules on decency in the face of alternate beliefs.

I'm not going to keep pounding on this horse. Lose the attitude, stop with the blanket anti-Christian dialogues, and try to get along with others here. Or simply move along and troll somewhere else, if that indeed is what floats your boat.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

I'm curious...

Are aboriginals so utterly retarded that they are completely incapable of making their own choices?

Do they need to be preserved like laboratory specimens so that others can feel good about themselves, despite what course they may choose for themselves?

[Rae'ya]

Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

I'm curious...

Are aboriginals so utterly retarded that they are completely incapable of making their own choices?

Do they need to be preserved like laboratory specimens so that others can feel good about themselves, despite what course they may choose for themselves?

I realise that this was not directed at me, but I just want to say something on the topic of the Australian Aborigines, because it is relevant to the above question.

A great deal of the loss of Australian Aboriginal culture happened during the first hundred and fifty years or so of the European Settlement of Australia. A part of the Europeans making the lives of Australian Aborigines 'better' was to forcibly take small children away from their parents and place them in orphanages to be adopted by white families, where they could be educated and 'civilised'. This is now called the Stolen Generation and there are still a few Aborigines alive today who were forcibly stolen from their parents. It was such a widespread phenomenon that the loss of traditional culture and values was enormous. A great deal of it will never be recovered, because so many of the elders are now dead and didn't have the opportunity to pass their knowledge onto younger generations. What we have left and are attempting to reconstruct is just a portion of the traditional knowledge and cultures... the Australian Aborigines are a little like the Native Americans, where there is no one centralised culture, but a collection of traditions and cultures that belonged to hundreds of tribes and were all slightly different to each other.

So, in that particular context, it's not about whether the Aborigines could make their own choices or not, because they just weren't allowed to. They were slaughtered by the hundreds and had their children forcibly stolen. Adults were essentially enslaved, hunted down and murdered if they ran away, and made to live on rations of flour, sugar, tobacco and alcohol that were given to them by their 'employers.

All this happened a long time ago, but we are still seeing the effects of it and attempting to reverse some of the damage that was done.

This is why I am ambiguous about missionary work, whether religious or not. Because I live in a country that was torn apart by an attempt to make the lives of it's indigenous population 'better'. At the time the settlers genuinely thought that they were doing the right thing and giving the Aborigines humanitarian aid. Now we know better.

So missionary work can do a great deal of good when done the right way. It can also cause an enormous amount of damage if not done well. As I said in an earlier post... it's a great big double edged sword.

[Aeran]

Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

I realise that this was not directed at me, but I just want to say something on the topic of the Australian Aborigines, because it is relevant to the above question.

A great deal of the loss of Australian Aboriginal culture happened during the first hundred and fifty years or so of the European Settlement of Australia. A part of the Europeans making the lives of Australian Aborigines 'better' was to forcibly take small children away from their parents and place them in orphanages to be adopted by white families, where they could be educated and 'civilised'. This is now called the Stolen Generation and there are still a few Aborigines alive today who were forcibly stolen from their parents. It was such a widespread phenomenon that the loss of traditional culture and values was enormous. A great deal of it will never be recovered, because so many of the elders are now dead and didn't have the opportunity to pass their knowledge onto younger generations. What we have left and are attempting to reconstruct is just a portion of the traditional knowledge and cultures... the Australian Aborigines are a little like the Native Americans, where there is no one centralised culture, but a collection of traditions and cultures that belonged to hundreds of tribes and were all slightly different to each other.

So, in that particular context, it's not about whether the Aborigines could make their own choices or not, because they just weren't allowed to. They were slaughtered by the hundreds and had their children forcibly stolen. Adults were essentially enslaved, hunted down and murdered if they ran away, and made to live on rations of flour, sugar, tobacco and alcohol that were given to them by their 'employers.

All this happened a long time ago, but we are still seeing the effects of it and attempting to reverse some of the damage that was done.

This is why I am ambiguous about missionary work, whether religious or not. Because I live in a country that was torn apart by an attempt to make the lives of it's indigenous population 'better'. At the time the settlers genuinely thought that they were doing the right thing and giving the Aborigines humanitarian aid. Now we know better.

So missionary work can do a great deal of good when done the right way. It can also cause an enormous amount of damage if not done well. As I said in an earlier post... it's a great big double edged sword.

I think Rae'ya summed it up pretty well. I have no problem with people who want to expose others to their religion in a peaceful and consenting manner, which genuinely allows them to make their own choices. But the reality is that missionary work has, historically speaking, often occurred within imperialistic and racially charged contexts where there is a vast gap in power and authority and often the direct or indirect attempt to dissolve the local culture and religion entirely.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

... This is now called the Stolen Generation and there are still a few Aborigines alive today who were forcibly stolen from their parents. It was such a widespread phenomenon that the loss of traditional culture and values was enormous...

Very similar things were done in the U.S. to the Native Americans. Stories I've heard of the "Indian Schools" are horrendous.

I doubt that any sane person today would, in any way, see that as a good thing. However, doesn't that go beyond what we mean when we refer to "missionary work"?

Obliging one to accept while pointing a gun at his/her head is quite different from preaching and hoping for converts.

[thalassa]

Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

Obliging one to accept while pointing a gun at his/her head is quite different from preaching and hoping for converts.

History is great to learn from...

...but often horrible to use as the basis for contemporary judgement-passing.

In anthropology, one of the things to try not to do is judge other cultures by one's own cultural POV--and yet very few people manage to remember that this applies to history too. People 100 or 200 or 1000 years ago come from just as different of a culture, with different values and ideals as someone from a different country and ethnicity.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

My former fiance went on a mission trip. She built houses for the poor, helped teach children to read, and assisted child rape victims with getting medical care they wouldn't otherwise have had. She didn't do any of that to manipulate people, she did it out of the goodness of her heart.

Just because someone is part of a faith that has wronged you doesn't make every one of their actions despicable.

I condone missionary work. If helping people in need is wrong, I'd rather be wrong.

I get it, people have been unfair to you. But you're lumping them and all of their actions into a big box and sealing it off. Other people have the right to live their lives in a different way than you.

I'll second this. I had a friend in college who did missionary work and her activities were pretty similar. She also told me that in her group, they only talked about religion if people were interested in hearing it. It was an "open door" policy. I think that's fair enough.

There are a lot of people out there who take their faith to heart (no matter what it is) and go do volunteer or missionary work in order to help people.

- - - Updated - - -

I realise that this was not directed at me, but I just want to say something on the topic of the Australian Aborigines, because it is relevant to the above question.

A great deal of the loss of Australian Aboriginal culture happened during the first hundred and fifty years or so of the European Settlement of Australia. A part of the Europeans making the lives of Australian Aborigines 'better' was to forcibly take small children away from their parents and place them in orphanages to be adopted by white families, where they could be educated and 'civilised'. This is now called the Stolen Generation and there are still a few Aborigines alive today who were forcibly stolen from their parents. It was such a widespread phenomenon that the loss of traditional culture and values was enormous. A great deal of it will never be recovered, because so many of the elders are now dead and didn't have the opportunity to pass their knowledge onto younger generations. What we have left and are attempting to reconstruct is just a portion of the traditional knowledge and cultures... the Australian Aborigines are a little like the Native Americans, where there is no one centralised culture, but a collection of traditions and cultures that belonged to hundreds of tribes and were all slightly different to each other.

So, in that particular context, it's not about whether the Aborigines could make their own choices or not, because they just weren't allowed to. They were slaughtered by the hundreds and had their children forcibly stolen. Adults were essentially enslaved, hunted down and murdered if they ran away, and made to live on rations of flour, sugar, tobacco and alcohol that were given to them by their 'employers.

All this happened a long time ago, but we are still seeing the effects of it and attempting to reverse some of the damage that was done.

This is why I am ambiguous about missionary work, whether religious or not. Because I live in a country that was torn apart by an attempt to make the lives of it's indigenous population 'better'. At the time the settlers genuinely thought that they were doing the right thing and giving the Aborigines humanitarian aid. Now we know better.

So missionary work can do a great deal of good when done the right way. It can also cause an enormous amount of damage if not done well. As I said in an earlier post... it's a great big double edged sword.

I get what you're saying. It was the same story in Canada with residential schools. But, I think it's important to judge individuals and individual groups on their own merits (or lack thereof) rather than lumping everyone together.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

I'm absolutely not judging missionary work based on what has happened in the past... I've said several times now that I am ambiguous at worst, and that I am NOT against missionary work that renders aid. I have also not lumped all missionary work into a single group, nor passed judgment on any groups. As I said before, I have contributed financially to mission groups and admired the missionary work that my co-worker has done. I'll repeat again, missionary work has caused a great deal of good in this world. It's just that it has also caused a great deal of damage.

My last post was specifically in response to Corbin's comment about whether indigenous cultures need us to preserve them as they are capable of making their own decisions. I do think that it's not that simple. History gives us multiple examples of how things were forcibly done, but it doesn't take a gun to your head to coerce you into a course of action that you may not volunteer in different circumstances.

I made an earlier example about certain circumpolar peoples who have had their hunting quotas reduced. This was a legal change imposed upon them by the government, which has had the effect of rendering their traditional diet and hunting culture irrevocably changed. This was not their choice. It is also not the choice of children in third world countries what they are taught at mission schools. Nor the choice of people who are having housing built for them in a manner that is not their traditional housing. These things may seem relatively passive, but they still have long lasting effects on a community and the way that their culture evolves.

All I am saying is that Westernising things is not necessarily the best way to render aid, particularly in indigenous cultures. I've not said that all missionaries Westernising things... just that it's a natural tendency that I believe we should be careful of. As I said in my first post, I would like to see more missionaries focusing on rendering aid such as providing livestock, teaching traditional and sustainable farming practices, constructing traditional housing, setting up trade in traditional crafts and trades, providing sustainable medical care, and including traditional cultural teachings in mission schools in an effort to avoid some of the loss of culture that invariably happens.

Missionary work is varied, and ranges from soup kitchens to medical programs to large-scale community support in third world countries. It also includes orphanages and mission schools, and door-to-door proselytizing. Which is why I have been very careful not to generalise about missionary work in any of my posts... because I don't believe that it is something that can be generalised. Some of it is helpful. Some of it is damaging. Some of it means well but is not helping that much. Some of it is indispensable. Some of it is harmless. Some of it is lifesaving. I don't think that missionary work should be dismissed out of hand. Nor do I think that it can be sanitised into an all-benevolent process that harms none. Because it's really just not that simple.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Missionary Work, please reply and Debate

Fair enough...sorry

Also, in those respects, I totally agree with you.