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an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

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    #61
    Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

    Rae'ya, you've raised a lot of interesting points (some of which I'm sure I'll try to rebut at a later date)

    For now, let me at least answer the part that I can answer without having to reference anyone else (because it's tiring and I have to make pizzas :P).

    You asked the question of whether there is that much difference between plant things dying and animal things dying....For me, yes it is. I've tended veggie patches and I've herded cattle and I've found a distinct difference between the two. I can watch countless hours of crop harvesting, without feeling much of anything. But it took 10 minutes of slaughterhouse video to turn me from a carnist to a vegetarian.

    I can eat a plant, while it looks pretty much the way it always did. My salad (not that I have that many, because you don't make friends with salad) roughly resembles what it has always looked like. I couldn't bring myself to eat part of an animal now because after seeing what I've seen, I don't see 'steak', or 'bacon'....I see cow and pig. I see parts of beings that I know wanted to live so badly, that they didn't just shrink away from the knife, bolt gun, net or slashing blade (in the case of chickens) some of them ran from it. I can't help but wonder what the someone on the plate was like and then ultimately how sad and frightened they were at the very end.

    I can't say I attribute those same features to a plant, but that's just me.

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      #62
      Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

      Well I am a foie gras eater as well as a preparer. I eat meat of all kinds as well as vegetables of all kinds. I like food and I like it prepared every which way possible. I also personally enjoying pushing myself to come up with dishes for vegetarians and vegans.

      That being said my cousin is vegan and is extremely healthy and has raised her two children on a vegan diet and they are as well. I support her every way I possibly can, and enjoy learning from her. When I'm sick and can't shake it she is the one I go to for advice. (completely different thread but true) I would also need to tip my hat anyone who is vegan because it is a crapton of work.

      I know you have to draw a line but I was taught that ALL living things are sentient beings. I worship the trees, and the grain, as well as the stag. I have three harvest festivals and I celebrate death, as well as life. So unfortunately telling me that plants don't feel pain doesn't work. Everything that is living IMO feels. So for humans to eat and survive we are going to cause something, plant or animal, pain.

      Respect and give thanks for what you consume. Thanks for the life that was given. Respect the life that was given. Knowing that something gave its life so you could live. That is what puts us above other animals.

      Remembering something mentioned about pizza, I am also a HUGE fan of bread. You create life to make bread (yeast), you kill it when you bake it. Just sayin
      "If you want to know what a man is like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." -- Sirius Black

      "Time is an illusion, lunch time doubly so."-- Ford Prefect

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        #63
        Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

        I eat only certain meats, those being chicken, lamb, fish and deer. I also eat eggs from chickens and used milk from lambs. I always by produce from local farms , or raise the animals myself. This means I have, and will kill/hunt an animal for consumption. However, I make sure that whatever isn't eaten, goes to use; ie. organs and bones are ground down into fertilizer for the vegetables and herbs I grow. Feathers, skin/fur go into crafts and sometimes taxidermy pieces. I believe if you're going to eat something that once lived, breathed and thought, you should at least respect it by putting it to good productive use.
        "By yarrow and rue, and my redcap too."

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          #64
          Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

          Originally posted by SilverShadow View Post
          The plant sentience thing is.... strange to me (I also have mixed feelings towards Michael Pollan). The book he's referencing has it's fair share of detractors within the scientific community. I'm not saying that further research or understanding of plant sentience is a waste of time, far from it. I guess I just have a hard time reconciling the fact that these arguments seem to put a houseplant next to a cat/dog/pig and say "these are equally sentient".
          Which book are you referring too? If it was The Secret Life of Plants, by Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird, then the article, though giving an overview of the book at the beginning, goes on to criticize it. Here's a quote from the article:

          I think we might be getting confused over sentience and level of intelligence; after reading the article and watching the video of the time lapsed bean plants showing some interesting responses that definitely imply some level of intelligence, I'd be hard pressed to say that plants don't posses some level of intelligence. No, I wouldn't say that a houseplant posses the same level of intelligence of a cat/dog/pig, but I think there's a strong possibility that plants posses some level of intelligence themselves that is hard for us to recognize without watching a time lapse video as plants move so much slower than us.

          Here is a chunk of the article that I thought was relevant:


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            #65
            Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

            If it moves,it is fair game for dinner.....At least how the world eats seems to show this is true....I mean live monkey brains(go ahead and Google that one)
            MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

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              #66
              Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

              I've been making a big effort to eat less meat lately. I don't know if I can ever go completely vegetarian for health reasons, but I've become increasingly uncomfortable with industrial agricultural practices that produce meat. There are alternatives to mass farmed meats, but they are VERY expensive and I'm on a very limited budget. So, it's less meat and more seeds and nuts for me. I've been putting almonds into my porridge in the morning and throwing them into stir fries and curries. I used to avoid them because they all came from California, but recently they started coming from Germany again (I think California's drought has something to do with this). I've also been buying sunflower seeds, which are cheaper than a lot of other nuts and seeds...these work really well with pasta, Asian dishes, and almost everything else. I save pumpkin and squash seeds when I buy a pumpkin or squash and roast them. I eat those as snacks. Anyway, I'm hoping that these things mixed with more sustainable meats can help me live a more sustainable lifestyle.

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                #67
                Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

                Well, I'm not Wiccan, so the Harm None doesn't apply to me. I've heard Wiccans who are vegan argue that if you're Wiccan then you must also be vegan, and I've heard Wiccans argue that the Harm None rule only applies to their magic. I've tried 4 times to be vegan because I believe it's right, but each time I've gotten ill. My doctor has instructed me to eat an omnivore diet - however, none of my ailments have cleared up and my conscience is weighing me down...I will in all likelyhood go back to veganism.

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                  #68
                  Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

                  Originally posted by anunitu View Post
                  If it moves,it is fair game for dinner....
                  The motto of the zombies!
                  Satan is my spirit animal

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                    #69
                    Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

                    So I read The 30-day Vegan Challenge and it is not a complete waste of money; however, it was kind preachy and light on the information I needed. Also, it did not have any meal plans, just a few recipes. I feel a little ripped off. So I spent a few hours doing the research etc, which I should have simply done in the first place. I had been concerned about calcium, but turns out that B12 is a bigger issue, not only for vegans but for vegetarians as well. Anyway, for anyone interested this site was very information rich: http://www.veganhealth.org/

                    "No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." -- Niels Bohr

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                      #70
                      Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

                      Stuff like B12 is another reason I'd avoid going vegan. Fortified foods are not common in continental Europe and I can't eat a lot of alternatives designed for vegans (because of severe food allergies).

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                        #71
                        Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

                        Vegan here, mostly out of respect for non-human beings. But also because it felt the most natural. Its helped alot with my asthma, of which I had suffered from since I was two.
                        "As long as humans continue to be the ruthless destroyer of other beings, we will never know health or peace. For as long as people massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, those who sow the seed of murder and pain will never reap joy or love." - Pythagoras


                        "I too shall lie in the dust when I am dead, but now let me win noble renown." - Homer, The Iliad

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                          #72
                          Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

                          I classify as a lacto-ovo vegetarian simply because I do enjoy the occasional glass of milk with my Oreos or a scrambled egg if I'm not feeling good but my vegetarianism isn't because of cruelty issues or politics or even my religion. I'm a vegetarian simply because meat holds no appeal to me. Eating the flesh of living things, while occasionally delicious, isn't something I enjoy doing all of the time. That being said, I love to cook and my boyfriend would eat meat/poultry/fish 24/7 with no vegetal nourishment if he was allowed so I do know how to cook meat properly. I just choose not to eat it. However, now that I'm getting more serious about Wicca and how the things I love can be involved in it, I am starting to look at how vegetarianism plays a role. I've read a few Cunningham books in which he wrote about being vegetarian/vegan for the sake of "and it harm none." It makes sense but at the same time what Medusa said about the issue makes sense.
                          (user formerly known as beckly_freckly)

                          You are a little soul carrying around a corpse.

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                            #73
                            Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

                            Because the dude cracks me up:

                            Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                              #74
                              Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

                              Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                              Because the dude cracks me up:

                              I love him. To me, he's what a young Thor with a lighter voice would look like.
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                                #75
                                Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

                                Originally posted by DanieMarie View Post
                                I've been making a big effort to eat less meat lately. I don't know if I can ever go completely vegetarian for health reasons, but I've become increasingly uncomfortable with industrial agricultural practices that produce meat. There are alternatives to mass farmed meats, but they are VERY expensive and I'm on a very limited budget. So, it's less meat and more seeds and nuts for me. I've been putting almonds into my porridge in the morning and throwing them into stir fries and curries. I used to avoid them because they all came from California, but recently they started coming from Germany again (I think California's drought has something to do with this). I've also been buying sunflower seeds, which are cheaper than a lot of other nuts and seeds...these work really well with pasta, Asian dishes, and almost everything else. I save pumpkin and squash seeds when I buy a pumpkin or squash and roast them. I eat those as snacks. Anyway, I'm hoping that these things mixed with more sustainable meats can help me live a more sustainable lifestyle.
                                Nuts are so great. I have to watch myself with them because I will just devour them!

                                I've heard tahini can be quite good with oatmeal though.

                                You mentioned allergies in a post that followed this one, so I don't know whether any of these suggestions will help, but tofu, edamame and tempeh are some of my favourites to put into dishes. Tempeh especially for things like a red sauce dish. There's also a thing called seitan, it's basically gluten. You can make it at home, or buy it in some places.

                                And look, while I wish everyone would just stop eating animals.... I'm not going to lie and say "JUST DO IT ALL OR NONE OF IT IS WORTH ANYTHING". Cutting down and being aware of what you're doing is a great step.



                                Originally posted by nbdy View Post
                                So I read The 30-day Vegan Challenge and it is not a complete waste of money; however, it was kind preachy and light on the information I needed. Also, it did not have any meal plans, just a few recipes. I feel a little ripped off. So I spent a few hours doing the research etc, which I should have simply done in the first place. I had been concerned about calcium, but turns out that B12 is a bigger issue, not only for vegans but for vegetarians as well. Anyway, for anyone interested this site was very information rich: http://www.veganhealth.org/
                                I really like Colleen Patrick-Goudreu's podcast, but I haven't read any of her books. Pity there wasn't enough help in there for you. I heard the recipes are nice though!

                                "Becoming Vegetarian" really helped me get my nutrition in order. It has vegan stuff in there too, the revised edition is probably best because nutritional science is always changing. And you might like the Engine 2 Diet website. They don't like oil (which is a problem for me because I love oil) but their recipes are pretty good, not always quick and easy though.

                                As for B12, I have a fortified soy milk but I also take a multivitamin and make sure I use Nutritional Yeast as well, just to be on the safe side. The other alternative is not washing my vegetables....and no. Just. No.



                                Originally posted by anunitu View Post
                                If it moves,it is fair game for dinner.....At least how the world eats seems to show this is true....I mean live monkey brains(go ahead and Google that one)
                                So, does that mean that animals in factory farms aren't fair game for dinner because they can't move very much?

                                (Sorry, now I'm just being a smart arse).

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