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The Divinity of Christ

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    #16
    Re: The Divinity of Christ

    I'm going to say more in a bit, as I've been thinking about it, but I'd like to nip something in the bud before anyone starts a thread de-railing discussion about it:

    I'd prefer we keep any debate of Jesus' reality out of this, and not just because there is more evidence supporting him being a real person than for many other historical figures that are accepted without question *mumbles about source texts and Josephus*. I am sure he existed, and at least was a dude. No matter what, he was some guy and walked around his homeland a bunch with his buddies and talked to some other people and gave some speeches. So, lets just treat that as an assumed constant for this discussion.
    hey look, I have a book! And look I have a second one too!

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      #17
      Re: The Divinity of Christ

      I'm not Catholic anymore, and when I was, I was a child. We were taught that Jesus is the son of God and a part of the trinity and we didn't really tackle the concept further than that. What was important to us was the things that he taught us; the way he lived his life; and that he was sacrificed so that we had the opportunity to go to Heaven.

      I never questioned that Jesus wasn't at least part divine. And honestly, I still believe that.

      The complex part is really down to what you feel that 'Divinity' actually IS. Is divinity being a god? Is it being more than human? Is it being God with a capital G? Is it being a conduit for a deity? Is it being spiritually more refined, evolved or enlightened than us? Is it being immortal? Is it being immortalised?

      My own thoughts as an ex-Catholic hard polytheist animist panentheist are probably not that useful to you, to be perfectly honest. But I'll offer them anyway lol.

      I think that Jesus was a real flesh and blood person, and I believe that YHVH had a hand in his conception. I do believe that deities have the ability to get their hands in there at the moment of conception and mess with the hame (astral body) of a foetus. This isn't a DNA thing... it's not about the lich (physical body) but about the soul complex. In this sense I think that Jesus was the son of YHVH while still being physically and genetically a human son of Joseph.

      I think that Jesus was a PR stunt... but I don't mean anything disrespectful by that. I simply mean that YHVH created him as a PR agent for the new generation of followers... and it worked brilliantly. And I think that after his death he was deified and continues to be deified.

      So yes, I think that Jesus is divine. Perhaps not in the sense that you are thinking, but in my own sense of the term. I think that he is the son of YHVH in that his spiritual makeup was meddled with. I think this made him uniquely suited to being a conduit for the presence and power of YHVH and in turn strengthened YHVH's power in this world. I think that he was given a place in YHVH's Otherworld appropriate to his position as prophet and Messiah. And I think that he has acheived deity status after death through the belief and faith of millions of his followers.

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        #18
        Re: The Divinity of Christ

        I have come to a conclusion, and I have determined Jesus is Divine and the Son of God, and became this way through the Adoptionism theory at his baptism by John.



        Through this, he was given Logos, the word of God, and being that became the spokesperson for God's word on earth.

        So there we go. We'll see if this sticks around, but its what I believe right now.

        - - - Updated - - -

        Also, thank you all SO MUCH for your help. I really appreciate it, and I read and thought about everything written here.
        hey look, I have a book! And look I have a second one too!

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          #19
          Re: The Divinity of Christ

          Oh man, sooooo many people have died over this.

          I'm gonna remind my Christian times here and use the same argument I used for what I believed.
          God is ONE, he's not divisible. Either Jesus is God or Jesus was a man. There's no space for this whole "part God and human" thing, it's bending the scriptures against themselves. Personally, what I used to think is that Jesus could be an angel, sort of like the ones who helped Job to escape Gomorrah. This would be strange because the Angels seemed very asexual and almost feminine, and Jesus was by all means a dude who hacked wood around.
          I think the whole "son of man" thing supports the visions that the Messiah is a man, albeit a man with intense divine inspiration.

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            #20
            Re: The Divinity of Christ

            I come to a memory of a book I once read. It suggested that all deities throughout history that have been massively worshiped are ALL true divine beings. Not because of what or who they are, but because of the power we give their names. This would be false to most Christians who believe there is only one true god, however, when you think of what most people think divinity is, you cant help but accept that YHVH can be seen as whatever he wishes to be seen as. This creates the possibility of multiple (yet in essence the same) God/desses. This also would allow for Jesus to be divine through his followers who truly believe him to be divine. Alas, this is all just my own opinion and you may discard it if you want, but I will still say that I respect YHVH and the teachings of Christianity as a valid religion, though not the right one for me.
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              #21
              Re: The Divinity of Christ

              Being raised Catholic, I was raised with the belief that Jesus was divine in the sense of being the proper Son of God, and also an aspect of the Holy Trinity, which subsequently makes up the whole being of God. In this way, Jesus was both fully divine and fully flesh and blood. I never really questioned this and it remained my viewpoint until my deconversion from the Christian faith.

              At present, my personal view is that Jesus did exist, and was a brilliant sociologist and philosopher, and perhaps even commanded a greater understanding of the world than the average. That said I personally view him as simply and only man, with no proper divinity whatsoever. This is simply my own view though.

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                #22
                Re: The Divinity of Christ

                Read up on medieval heresies like Arianism, or Eastern Christian doctrines like Miaphyisitism. There's a whole load of spectrums of people who wonder about that, it's one of the basic question of Christianity.

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                  #23
                  Re: The Divinity of Christ

                  Originally posted by Malflick View Post
                  So, for the longest time now I've been a very "Arian" Christian, that is I thought Jesus was not Divine. However, recently I've been having doubts about this.

                  Thing is, its not a very logical thing, it just all of a sudden I started feeling as though I might be wrong about that. That Jesus might have really been in incarnation of God just suddenly started feeling far more right to me.

                  Which, you know, this isn't exactly the greatest forum in the world for this sort of Christian Dilemma, but its not like I use any Christian forums. So I'll just awkwardly drop this thread here.

                  Anyways, yeah, so I'm divinely confused *rimshot*.
                  Well, the obvious place to look for the standard Trinitarian view would be On the Incarnation by Athanasius of Alexandria.

                  I can give you standard Trinitarian arguments that most Nicene Christians would use as well.

                  The number one question is this: Was there ever a time when God did not have His Word?

                  Number two: If there was a time when the Word was not and the Logos came to dwell within Christ, is he man? Or God? Or a tertium quid?
                  There once was a man who said though,
                  It seems that I know that I know,
                  What I'd like to see,
                  Is the I that knows me,
                  When I know that I know that I know.

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                    #24
                    Re: The Divinity of Christ

                    I am not going to go there with the debate of human or being a part of God. I respect the insight of Jesus,as I do many spiritual humans,but if a human is in part God and human,then we come to the question,can a human also be part God?

                    This kind of reflects the idea of "Demi-gods" in other old religions,that a god could procreate with a human.

                    Being that I do not follow the abrahamic path,it is really not my place to cast doubt on those that do follow that path.

                    Just the idea of "ether/or" as a concept makes me consider if the idea is just a man made conclusion,or is it outside human understanding.
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                      #25
                      Re: The Divinity of Christ

                      When I see questions/debates like this, I generally have to go with, "does it matter?"

                      I mean really, does it matter *what* Jesus is or is not?


                      For traditional Christianity, I think it does...but if you aren't a traditional Christian, ask yourself this--if the story of Jesus was a historical farce, would my faith still have value?
                      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                        #26
                        Re: The Divinity of Christ

                        Originally posted by anunitu View Post
                        I am not going to go there with the debate of human or being a part of God. I respect the insight of Jesus,as I do many spiritual humans,but if a human is in part God and human,then we come to the question,can a human also be part God?
                        Absolutely. In apostolic Christianity, that's precisely the penultimate goal. It's called theosis in the East and deification in the West. It is summed up by the famous quote from Saint Athansius of Alexandria: "God became man so that man may become God." That's why so much emphasis is placed on Christ's Transfiguration. It represents what we were pre-Fall and what we should be now and can be by partaking of the Eucharist.

                        - - - Updated - - -

                        Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                        When I see questions/debates like this, I generally have to go with, "does it matter?"

                        I mean really, does it matter *what* Jesus is or is not?


                        For traditional Christianity, I think it does...but if you aren't a traditional Christian, ask yourself this--if the story of Jesus was a historical farce, would my faith still have value?
                        In typical Nicene orthodox Christianity, yes it does. If Jesus was not man, then how are to be saved if he was not like us? In non-typical Christianity, such as Gnosticism, Christ's humanity is meaningless. It's the knowledge that he imparted to his disciples that is most important.

                        If farcical, you'd probably have to change the paradigm that you're working in. Literal religion wasn't always the end-all, be-all way to view things. Even the Greek philosophers criticized people that believed in the Greek deities literally sitting on top of Mount Olympus doling out rewards and punishments haphazardly.

                        There's a famous quote from Origen of Alexandria that I love to pieces. It goes like this:

                        Originally posted by Origen of Alexandria
                        For who that has understanding will suppose that the first, and second, and third day, and the evening and the morning, existed without a sun, and moon, and stars? And that the first day was, as it were, also without a sky? And who is so foolish as to suppose that God, after the manner of a husbandman, planted a paradise in Eden, towards the east, and placed in it a tree of life, visible and palpable, so that one tasting of the fruit by the bodily teeth obtained life? And again, that one was a partaker of good and evil by masticating what was taken from the tree? And if God is said to walk in the paradise in the evening, and Adam to hide himself under a tree, I do not suppose that anyone doubts that these things figuratively indicate certain mysteries, the history having taken place in appearance, and not literally.
                        Once upon a time, mythopoesis was considered a valid and worthy discipline. It wasn't about correct belief. It was about grokking the myths to change your view of the world. That's the reason the Eleusinian mysteries were so popular.
                        There once was a man who said though,
                        It seems that I know that I know,
                        What I'd like to see,
                        Is the I that knows me,
                        When I know that I know that I know.

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                          #27
                          Re: The Divinity of Christ

                          Originally posted by GabrielWithoutWings View Post
                          There's a famous quote from Origen of Alexandria that I love to pieces.

                          (snip_

                          Once upon a time, mythopoesis was considered a valid and worthy discipline. It wasn't about correct belief. It was about grokking the myths to change your view of the world. That's the reason the Eleusinian mysteries were so popular.
                          I'm a huge fan of Origen...dude is interesting...and what we know of what he's said is pretty interesting too.
                          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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