Ham on Nye evolution/creationism debate

[thalassa]

Re: Ham on Nye evolution/creationism debate

Is it wrong that I want to take my Evolution book (literally, my college textbook titled Evolution) and whack Ham over the head until he gets some sense, just from hearing the words come from his mouth?

Also, I wish more professional scientists were willing to address these topics to lay audiences. Not necessarily in a debate format...I understand the concerns of not wanting to legitimize it...but just in general.

I miss Stephen Jay Gould...he was so brilliant.

[anunitu]

Re: Ham on Nye evolution/creationism debate

CNN is supposed to have it on in the near future,not sure about the date.

[volcaniclastic]

Re: Ham on Nye evolution/creationism debate

Is it wrong that I want to take my Evolution book (literally, my college textbook titled Evolution) and whack Ham over the head until he gets some sense, just from hearing the words come from his mouth?

Also, I wish more professional scientists were willing to address these topics to lay audiences. Not necessarily in a debate format...I understand the concerns of not wanting to legitimize it...but just in general.

I miss Stephen Jay Gould...he was so brilliant.

What really got me was the number of people in the audience who were CLEARLY on Ham's side. I guess it's Kentucky, after all.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Ham on Nye evolution/creationism debate

This whole thing boggles my brain slightly.

I've not watched the debate, and I'm not particularly interested in watching it. But hubby was looking at a website the other day that showed all the public schools in America that teach Creation in the curriculum and I almost fell over.

The fact that this is even a public debate is alien to me. Completely alien.

I went to a private Catholic school and sure... in the younger classes we learned Creation as part of our religion studies. But when they started teaching us science we learned about Evolution. Because that's where the scientific evidence lies. In Australia, Evolution is the standard theory. I have no doubt that we HAVE Creationists, but it's nothing like in the US.

Hubby and I went to the museum here in Sydney on Wednesday, and they have a REALLY good dinosaur exhibit with all sorts of evolutionary learning, as well as a REALLY fantastic Australian megafauna exhibit (which I may have been a little bit fan-girl over). What do Creationists tell their children when they take them to see the dinosaur bones?

Either way, I do believe that debates like this are worth it. Even if you aren't going to change the minds of the dedicated Creationists (and frankly, if hundreds of years of science isn't going to change it, public debates aren't), you are still contributing to the education of the general public. Maybe a part of the popularity of Creationism is simply the fact that there is a lack of education about this. Maybe this public debate will spark some of those who just accepted what their teacher told them in school and didn't think twice about it to research and think for themselves.

I think that's totally worth it.

And I do agree that there needs to be actual scientists debating this. Because it is true that our carbon dating system is not perfect and that some fossil and artifact datings from early in the use of the system have had to be revised. It's easy for Creationists to jump on this and add a bit of hyperbole in an effort to debunk it completely. It's difficult for a layperson to properly rebut accusations like that. We need experts addressing these points and educating the public about the science behind it.

Because lets face it, I doubt that America is likely to address the widespread messed up schooling system that is teaching children in PUBLIC schools that Creationism is true and science is crap.

[Malflick]

Re: Ham on Nye evolution/creationism debate

Rae'ya: Here are some pictures of Dino exhibits inside the creation museum

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/this-is-what-creationists-believe-about-dinosaurs

[thalassa]

Re: Ham on Nye evolution/creationism debate

The fact that this is even a public debate is alien to me. Completely alien.

I went to a private Catholic school and sure... in the younger classes we learned Creation as part of our religion studies. But when they started teaching us science we learned about Evolution. Because that's where the scientific evidence lies. In Australia, Evolution is the standard theory. I have no doubt that we HAVE Creationists, but it's nothing like in the US.

I think you guys gave us this Ken Ham dude, lol...

But yeah, I learned about evolution in church...for real, it was part of our lessons on Genesis. And not in some anti-evolution way, but in evolution-evolution way.

Because lets face it, I doubt that America is likely to address the widespread messed up schooling system that is teaching children in PUBLIC schools that Creationism is true and science is crap.

Here's the thing though...the schools that are doing this are mostly in conservative communities in conservative states. My science classes were taught by scientists that decided to become teachers as a second career. If you had even suggested that they teach creationism along side evolution, they probably would have had kittens... Actually, my freshman biology class wrote papers on why creationism isn't scientific... Even here in the area of Virginia where I live--the land of Pat Robertson (and here's some irony for all of us), evolution is what is taught in the public schools with little opposition. If you want your kid to learn something different, you send them to private school. The rest of the state though...they got issues.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Ham on Nye evolution/creationism debate

Rae'ya: Here are some pictures of Dino exhibits inside the creation museum
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/this-...bout-dinosaurs

There's a Creationist Museum? :wtf:

The unfortunate thing is that they have some pretty awesome dinosaur models. I especially liked the part about how all dinosaurs were vegetarian and there were about fifty kinds, most of which were the size of a pony.

I think you guys gave us this Ken Ham dude, lol...

He has been struck off the 'official list of Australian people that we claim are Australian'. That's why he hangs out with you guys now.

Seriously though... apparently we have an Institute of Creation Research and a Creation Science Foundation.

We definitely HAVE creationists... but the really good ones flee the country and go to live in Kentucky and open Creation Museums so that we can all learn about dinosaurs.

Here's the thing though...the schools that are doing this are mostly in conservative communities in conservative states. My science classes were taught by scientists that decided to become teachers as a second career. If you had even suggested that they teach creationism along side evolution, they probably would have had kittens... Actually, my freshman biology class wrote papers on why creationism isn't scientific... Even here in the area of Virginia where I live--the land of Pat Robertson (and here's some irony for all of us), evolution is what is taught in the public schools with little opposition. If you want your kid to learn something different, you send them to private school. The rest of the state though...they got issues.

Yeah, this is the map that hubby was looking at. It is specifically showing schools with tax-funded creationist curriculum, not all public schools that teach creationism.

I'm sure there are private Australian schools that teach Creationism in direct opposition to Evolution... it would be completely naive to think otherwise. We have our fair share of this sort of thing, it just seems to me that the US has MORE than their fair share. And for this to go on in public schools is just odd to me. And then add in proposed legislative bills such as the one you linked... mind boggling. Virginia is VA, right? Which ironically doesn't have dots on the map that I linked.

But perhaps it's all a matter of publicity and hyperbole and it's not really as widespread as we are led to believe here on the other side of the world.

Gotta be honest with you guys though... from our perspective, sometimes America looks a little bit crazy.

(You'd probably say the same thing about us though )

[Medusa]

Re: Ham on Nye evolution/creationism debate

I've never met a real creationist in person. So I decided to ask my fb friends about it. Only one gave a maybe answer. I am genuinely frightened that people still believe that. Then again people still think they can get aids off a toilet seat. So. Yeah. There's that.

[Malflick]

Re: Ham on Nye evolution/creationism debate

I've never met a real creationist in person. So I decided to ask my fb friends about it. Only one gave a maybe answer. I am genuinely frightened that people still believe that. Then again people still think they can get aids off a toilet seat. So. Yeah. There's that.

You're not the only one genuinely frightened by that.

Its kind of terrifying that people genuinely believe that stuff 0_0.

[volcaniclastic]

Re: Ham on Nye evolution/creationism debate

You're not the only one genuinely frightened by that.

Its kind of terrifying that people genuinely believe that stuff 0_0.

I have a friend back home that believes that stuff. She's a molecular biologist. I love her to pieces, but there are conversations we just CAN'T have.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Ham on Nye evolution/creationism debate

I have a friend back home that believes that stuff. She's a molecular biologist. I love her to pieces, but there are conversations we just CAN'T have.

I am amazed at the astronomer who spends his time looking at the stars, and also takes Genesis literally. I wonder how he makes sense of the "firmament" - a solid dome over the earth, from which stars are hung like lamps, holding back the water that would later be used for the great flood? Has he not noticed that that isn't the way it is?

I found the debate well worth watching, if only to see the nifty sophistry Ham pulls in dividing science into "observational" and "historical." The idea is that all scientists working today can arrive at the same conclusions based on experimentation, because the experiments can be observed, but, when it comes to looking at the past - which can not be directly observed - it's all a matter of interpretation, so all interpretations are equally valid.

It seems to me that a rational person would want their interpretations of the past to be based on observable artifacts & testable processes...

But maybe that's just my blind spot... I have so little faith.

Also, I couldn't help wondering, as Ham was giving his spiel about "kinds," what he makes of Cro-Magnons - the other "human" species.

And there was so much baloney that I made a sandwich when I was done - such as the claim that there is a HUGE genetic difference between different species.

[Denarius]

Re: Ham on Nye evolution/creationism debate

But perhaps it's all a matter of publicity and hyperbole and it's not really as widespread as we are led to believe here on the other side of the world.

Gotta be honest with you guys though... from our perspective, sometimes America looks a little bit crazy.

It's two things: One, America has a very large media presence in the world so we are basically shoving our dirty laundry in everyone's faces. Two, people think of the united states as a singular and cohesive country in the same sense that say France or Belgium are countries. America is a macrocountry made up of three microcountries.

There is the east coast, the west coast, and flyover country. Crazy stuff happens in flyover country. (Though crazy stuff also happens in Florida, and Chicago is alright.)

Here's a handy map:

[Rowanwood]

Re: Ham on Nye evolution/creationism debate

It's two things: One, America has a very large media presence in the world so we are basically shoving our dirty laundry in everyone's faces. Two, people think of the united states as a singular and cohesive country in the same sense that say France or Belgium are countries. America is a macrocountry made up of three microcountries.

There is the east coast, the west coast, and flyover country. Crazy stuff happens in flyover country. (Though crazy stuff also happens in Florida, and Chicago is alright.)

Here's a handy map:

Please tell me this is sarcasm, or we are gonna have a talk.

[Denarius]

Re: Ham on Nye evolution/creationism debate

Please tell me this is sarcasm, or we are gonna have a talk.

Well, replace "flyover country" with the Heartland or middle America and "crazy stuff" with disproportionate conservatism or rampant Christian fundamentalism and that's mostly the point I was trying to make in polite language.

I felt it was punchier my way though.

[Rowanwood]

Re: Ham on Nye evolution/creationism debate

Well, replace "flyover country" with the Heartland or middle America and "crazy stuff" with disproportionate conservatism or rampant Christian fundamentalism and that's mostly the point I was trying to make in polite language.

I felt it was punchier my way though.

Right, and you know how I love giant generalizations and the demonization of entire SWATHS of the country because there are a handful of loud morons living there....because clearly that's legit.