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    #16
    Re: Luciferianism and Satanism

    Originally posted by Alienist View Post
    Pretty interesting answers. Thanks everyone! A lot of people that talked to me about this subject often say Satan is a fallen angel and the word Satan is his title, but Lucifer is his real name. From what I'm seeing Lucifer and Satan are 2 entirely different entities. Lucifer in Luciferianism I hear is almost kind of like Prometheus, wanting to bring enlightenment and knowledge to all and help humanity. If Lucifer and Satan are two different entities, what are there personalities and goals? I've seen Satanists here but I haven't seen any Luciferians here. Anyone have or worked with Lucifer?
    My service is dedicated to Lucifer and let me tell you, it was the best decision I have ever made. Lucifer grants requests fully and swiftly and maintaining a relationship with him is very easy. Lucifer's goals are to enlighten humanity to it's fullest potential. His energy is quite comforting, but with a tinge of annoyance. When invoked, the feeling is similar and he answers quickly. Side effects with working so closely with him is you do develop a bit of a superiority complex. I was very soft spoken until I met Lucifer and now, I can be quite arrogant. It's still almost like having an old friend around...he's very permissive with whom you work with as well.

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      #17
      Re: Luciferianism and Satanism

      Originally posted by Obsidian Shadow View Post
      My service is dedicated to Lucifer and let me tell you, it was the best decision I have ever made. Lucifer grants requests fully and swiftly and maintaining a relationship with him is very easy. Lucifer's goals are to enlighten humanity to it's fullest potential. His energy is quite comforting, but with a tinge of annoyance. When invoked, the feeling is similar and he answers quickly. Side effects with working so closely with him is you do develop a bit of a superiority complex. I was very soft spoken until I met Lucifer and now, I can be quite arrogant. It's still almost like having an old friend around...he's very permissive with whom you work with as well.
      So what's your take then on Lucifer? Is he an angel? A deity? Has he held the title of Satan at some point or is he a different entity entirely?

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        #18
        Re: Luciferianism and Satanism

        Originally posted by Rowanwood View Post
        So what's your take then on Lucifer? Is he an angel? A deity? Has he held the title of Satan at some point or is he a different entity entirely?
        He is a different entity all together. Satan is as well. I've only dealt with Satan once and his energy is a lot darker and heavier than Lucifer's. Lucifer is a fallen Archangel but also the true creator of man kind. When Adonai saw this, he tried to make it so that we were subservient to him, and him alone. Lucifer was only cast from the heavens when he tried to convince us that we should seek enlightenment (Eden). He seems to scoff at the notion of being a part of Satan's rebellion with the other 72 crowned princes of hell. He is not a deity and HATES being worshiped as one. He prefers that you treat him as an equal, not a ruler. That would make his dislike of Adonai hypocritical. He has never held the title of Satan. Satan, from what I gather, is Abaddon. Though, I'm not 100% sure. I don know though that it isn't Lucifer. However, since this isn't a centralized path, I'm sure there are plenty of others who will disagree with me. But that's my take.

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          #19
          Re: Luciferianism and Satanism

          Originally posted by Alienist View Post
          If Satan is a title, than was is Satan's real name in Theistic Satanism? Also how is he depicted? Lucifer in Luciferianism is often depicted as an angel or god of light.
          We don't know the 'real name' of the Satan who led the rebellion... the Biblical and Apocryphal texts don't state it, though there is lots of speculation. There are Theistic Satanists who think that they know Satan's real name, others who are content that they'll probably never know it and that it doesn't really matter either way. Personally I think it's possible that several deities and Demons answer to the title, which would account for the various experiences.

          I've never cared enough to dig that far into it, myself... Torey does all the nitty gritty research and I just skim around the surface. I work with Demons, not Satan. I've never met him and so I don't know how he would appear to me. Deities sometimes appear to different people in different ways... they don't have a physical presence here and so what we 'see' or experience must be filtered through our subconscious minds before it can form an 'image' for us. Even in the Otherworlds, we are not a physical presence there, and so the same sort of filtering has to happen. There are usually key similarities that allow us to know that we are talking about the same deity, but other than that things can vary wildly.

          Originally posted by Alienist View Post
          Satan basically means adversary but it doesn't seem to mean evil. It's just means adversary. Enki is considered a Satan for defying Enlil, Set is a Satan for going against Osiris and Horus and Loki is a Satan for going against Odin and the others. I wonder if Prometheus could be considered a Satan for going against Zeus by giving fire to humans.

          So really any deity that goes against another could be considered a Satan, so that means that Lucifer is a Satan even though people who worship Lucifer prefer to be called Luciferians.
          Yes and no.

          iFirst, It's not 'going against another' that makes an Adversary type deity... it's specifically going against the established dogma of a supreme entity who is being a bit tyrannical. In the case of all the deities you have mentioned above (including Prometheus), there is an element of rebellion against restrictive and superior 'supremes' who have set themselves up as top dog. In the case of beings like Enki and Prometheous, there is also an element of specifically supporting the rights of the human being within the machinations of the deities. The old supreme deities aren't actually very nice... or at least they weren't back when humans were considered their personal slave race.

          BUT... while this would put these deities into what you can consider the 'Adversary' category... calling them ha-satans is not strictly appropriate. 'Ha-satan' is a HEBREW term. So calling a Greek or Norse deity by a Hebrew term, while not necessarily innaccurate, isn't really appropriate. That would be like me calling Zeus by the name 'Allfadhir'. Technically he is the equivalent of the All-father in his pantheon, but calling him by an Old Norse term is really not in good taste. That's appropriation and disrespectful to both the original culture and the one you are attaching the label to.

          It's not really appropriate to call anyone a ha-Satan unless they (as Torey mentioned) are from the Abrahamic mythology and it's predecessors.

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            #20
            Re: Luciferianism and Satanism

            Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
            We don't know the 'real name' of the Satan who led the rebellion... the Biblical and Apocryphal texts don't state it, though there is lots of speculation. There are Theistic Satanists who think that they know Satan's real name, others who are content that they'll probably never know it and that it doesn't really matter either way. Personally I think it's possible that several deities and Demons answer to the title, which would account for the various experiences.

            I've never cared enough to dig that far into it, myself... Torey does all the nitty gritty research and I just skim around the surface. I work with Demons, not Satan. I've never met him and so I don't know how he would appear to me. Deities sometimes appear to different people in different ways... they don't have a physical presence here and so what we 'see' or experience must be filtered through our subconscious minds before it can form an 'image' for us. Even in the Otherworlds, we are not a physical presence there, and so the same sort of filtering has to happen. There are usually key similarities that allow us to know that we are talking about the same deity, but other than that things can vary wildly.



            Yes and no.

            iFirst, It's not 'going against another' that makes an Adversary type deity... it's specifically going against the established dogma of a supreme entity who is being a bit tyrannical. In the case of all the deities you have mentioned above (including Prometheus), there is an element of rebellion against restrictive and superior 'supremes' who have set themselves up as top dog. In the case of beings like Enki and Prometheous, there is also an element of specifically supporting the rights of the human being within the machinations of the deities. The old supreme deities aren't actually very nice... or at least they weren't back when humans were considered their personal slave race.

            BUT... while this would put these deities into what you can consider the 'Adversary' category... calling them ha-satans is not strictly appropriate. 'Ha-satan' is a HEBREW term. So calling a Greek or Norse deity by a Hebrew term, while not necessarily innaccurate, isn't really appropriate. That would be like me calling Zeus by the name 'Allfadhir'. Technically he is the equivalent of the All-father in his pantheon, but calling him by an Old Norse term is really not in good taste. That's appropriation and disrespectful to both the original culture and the one you are attaching the label to.

            It's not really appropriate to call anyone a ha-Satan unless they (as Torey mentioned) are from the Abrahamic mythology and it's predecessors.

            I do wonder if calling them a Satan isn't appropriate, why do some Theistic Satanists refer Enki or Loki or Set to be a Satan? Obviously the Hebrew term isn't accurate, but I don't know the Greek or Norse term for adversary. Not all rebels are good and not all supreme beings are tyrannical. Some were and some weren't. Some rebels wanted to be liberators and some wanted to cause trouble Just because one rebels, doesn't mean the rebel is good. I am curious if Osiris was a tyrant or Odin was. I know Yahweh and Zeus were somewhat tyrannical in the past.
            Last edited by Alienist; 11 Feb 2014, 07:10.

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              #21
              Re: Luciferianism and Satanism

              Though not talked about much,the idea that both good and evil "Beings" might be said to reflect our human dual natures. Do these "figures" effect us as humans,or do we create them from our own natures.
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                #22
                Re: Luciferianism and Satanism

                Originally posted by Alienist View Post
                I do wonder if calling them a Satan isn't appropriate, why do some Theistic Satanists refer Enki or Loki or Set to be a Satan?
                Because some Theistic Satanists believe that these entities are the being commonly known as Satan. Some believe that they are all the same entity, just showing different faces in different pantheons. It depends on the core concept of divinity... soft polytheist vs hard polytheist in particular.

                Plus, appropriate is a purely subjective term that is directly relevant to personal opinion. Not everyone thinks that cherry picking and cultural appropriation is inappropriate.

                Originally posted by Alienist View Post
                Obviously the Hebrew term isn't accurate, but I don't know the Greek or Norse term for adversary.
                Nor do I, which is why I use the English term when referring to those deities.


                Originally posted by Alienist View Post
                Not all rebels are good and not all supreme beings are tyrannical. Some were and some weren't. Some rebels wanted to be liberators and some wanted to cause trouble Just because one rebels, doesn't mean the rebel is good.
                I never said that they were. Rebellion is subjective and depends on which side of the fence you started on. Whether or not it is 'good' depends entirely on your personal moral compass and what your goals are. If I were Christian and desired to live by Christian ideals, I would have a vastly different opinion of the Demons than I do now.

                Originally posted by Alienist View Post
                I am curious if Osiris was a tyrant or Odin was. I know Yahweh and Zeus were somewhat tyrannical in the past.
                Osiris was, but Odhinn not so much.

                Humanity has evolved an enormous amount since we were considered naught but a slave race to the ancient gods. I'm not sure that deities like Enlil, Osiris and Zeus still think of humanity in they same way that they did in times long past. But I don't agree that we should sugar coat it and pretend that they always loved and helped humans. Because they didn't. That doesn't mean that they don't now, though.

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                  #23
                  Re: Luciferianism and Satanism

                  Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                  Because some Theistic Satanists believe that these entities are the being commonly known as Satan. Some believe that they are all the same entity, just showing different faces in different pantheons. It depends on the core concept of divinity... soft polytheist vs hard polytheist in particular.

                  Plus, appropriate is a purely subjective term that is directly relevant to personal opinion. Not everyone thinks that cherry picking and cultural appropriation is inappropriate.



                  Nor do I, which is why I use the English term when referring to those deities.




                  I never said that they were. Rebellion is subjective and depends on which side of the fence you started on. Whether or not it is 'good' depends entirely on your personal moral compass and what your goals are. If I were Christian and desired to live by Christian ideals, I would have a vastly different opinion of the Demons than I do now.



                  Osiris was, but Odhinn not so much.

                  Humanity has evolved an enormous amount since we were considered naught but a slave race to the ancient gods. I'm not sure that deities like Enlil, Osiris and Zeus still think of humanity in they same way that they did in times long past. But I don't agree that we should sugar coat it and pretend that they always loved and helped humans. Because they didn't. That doesn't mean that they don't now, though.
                  Was Osiris and the others actually tyrannical? Or is that what is written? This is why it's difficult to sometimes choose deities because none of us really know which one was benevolent and which one isn't. One source says they are bad and the other source says quite another. As you said, maybe they were in the past but no longer are.

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                    #24
                    Re: Luciferianism and Satanism

                    Originally posted by Alienist View Post
                    Was Osiris and the others actually tyrannical? Or is that what is written? This is why it's difficult to sometimes choose deities because none of us really know which one was benevolent and which one isn't. One source says they are bad and the other source says quite another. As you said, maybe they were in the past but no longer are.
                    Are you always bad or good? Are you always easy going or are you sometimes stubborn?

                    Can you have a bad day, or are you always happy? If I write a story where you are an archangel, does that make it so?

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                      #25
                      Re: Luciferianism and Satanism

                      Originally posted by Alienist View Post
                      Was Osiris and the others actually tyrannical? Or is that what is written? This is why it's difficult to sometimes choose deities because none of us really know which one was benevolent and which one isn't. One source says they are bad and the other source says quite another. As you said, maybe they were in the past but no longer are.
                      From what I get from Luciferianism (and Satanism to a degree, I think it depends on the Satanist), there's a sense of good/evil/benevolence/malevolence as being subjective. Lucifer, for example, isn't benevolent nor malevolent but he might be seen benevolent to a follower of his and malevolent to someone who doesn't follow him. Of course, this doesn't mean everyone who follows or doesn't follow him will view him that way, some will view him as both benevolent and malevolent or as neither. It's a similar thing for any deity or entity.
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                        #26
                        Re: Luciferianism and Satanism

                        That's the impression that I get is that a lot of the god and goddesses are just there and people form cults and religions based on said deities. Those who follow Jesus are good and those that don't are evil. In fact almost all religions could be viewed as good because almost all of them teach one person to be good by following morals, showing kindness to others and so forth. A religion would only be evil, I think, are ones that worship deities that are known to be malevolent and teach and encourage one to steal, rape and kill, sacrifice people, children and so forth, but I can't think of any that do that.

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                          #27
                          Re: Luciferianism and Satanism

                          This is a very interesting thread. Thanks for sharing.

                          I have a question. We have two positions on who Lucifer is. One is that he was a fallen king of Babylon (i.e. human), while the other is that he is an entity of some sort.

                          I was aware of the theological position on the the king of Babylon but I don't personally know how they arrive at that conclusion. Homework for me :-)

                          So, do any Satanists hold the view that Lucifer is an entity with power?

                          - - - Updated - - -

                          FWIW, I have always interpreted Isaiah as a prophetic scripture addressing the last conflict (Armageddon). for example:

                          "I have commanded My sanctified ones;
                          I have also called My mighty ones for My anger—
                          Those who rejoice in My exaltation."

                          The mighty ones are the warrior angels...

                          "The Lord of hosts mustersThe army for battle.
                          They come from a far country,
                          From the end of heaven—
                          The Lord and His weapons of indignation,
                          To destroy the whole land."

                          That to me indicates something much more serious than a Babylonian conquest.

                          "Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand!It will come as destruction from the Almighty."

                          The day of the Lord is widely understood to mean the final battle.
                          It then goes on to describe the near total destruction of all mankind and all living things.

                          When Isaiah gets to addressing Lucifer, he clearly identifies him as a man, who is cast out of the grave, and who intended to enter heaven and take over the kingdom. Being cast out of the grave implies some form of resurrection, especially when it is compared to all the other kings of nations who remain asleep in glory.

                          Something to be mindful of is that the name Babylon in the scriptures refers to two different things. One is the historical Babylonian kingdom, and the other is the spirit of Babylon which originated with the kingdom, yet survives its destruction.

                          Is Lucifer who Isaiah refers to, another name of the one who once was, is not, and yet shall be?
                          That would seem to fit with the Luciferian view of an entity that is not a deity, and yet has great power.

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                            #28
                            Re: Luciferianism and Satanism

                            Originally posted by Alienist View Post
                            That's the impression that I get is that a lot of the god and goddesses are just there and people form cults and religions based on said deities. Those who follow Jesus are good and those that don't are evil. In fact almost all religions could be viewed as good because almost all of them teach one person to be good by following morals, showing kindness to others and so forth. A religion would only be evil, I think, are ones that worship deities that are known to be malevolent and teach and encourage one to steal, rape and kill, sacrifice people, children and so forth, but I can't think of any that do that.
                            Not all religion teaches a person morality, to show kindness to others, etc. A Satanist may be more likely to be "malevolent" than a Luciferian, who would be more "benevolent". However, at the end of the day, they do not teach someone morality or kindness and are not as altruistic as the Big Three or some sects of Paganism, making them a far more selfish religion or faith.

                            This could also make a religion or faith look evil to someone else, along side with what you deem as "evil". To some, selfishness is evil and Satanism and Luciferianism are selfish.
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                              #29
                              Re: Luciferianism and Satanism

                              Originally posted by LuciaStar View Post
                              Not all religion teaches a person morality, to show kindness to others, etc. A Satanist may be more likely to be "malevolent" than a Luciferian, who would be more "benevolent". However, at the end of the day, they do not teach someone morality or kindness and are not as altruistic as the Big Three or some sects of Paganism, making them a far more selfish religion or faith.

                              This could also make a religion or faith look evil to someone else, along side with what you deem as "evil". To some, selfishness is evil and Satanism and Luciferianism are selfish.
                              Satanism focuses more on the self but I heard Luciferianism is actually selfless as Lucifer wants to spread knowledge and help us. It also depends on what considers selfish. Having stuff for yourself is not bad as long as it's not against anyone's expense. i.e. taking more than your fair share of food or money, like being a cheap skate, are not ethical. I said almost all religions tend to teach some morals, being kind, don't hurt people, stop evil, love your land, family and so forth.

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                                #30
                                Re: Luciferianism and Satanism

                                Originally posted by DON View Post
                                Is Lucifer who Isaiah refers to, another name of the one who once was, is not, and yet shall be?
                                That would seem to fit with the Luciferian view of an entity that is not a deity, and yet has great power.
                                It kind of depends on the Luciferian or Satanist, really. I know many say Lucifer is a title (and that's why some would, say, worship Prometheus as Lucifer) and some could view it in the way you describe. It's not going to get a thousand different answers.

                                I personally sort of lean in the direction you're describing, as I do view Lucifer as the Rebel and Liberator, so I would have to view it in some similar matter to that.
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