The line between spirituality and madness

[Denarius]

I've been thinking about this for a while now, and the recent breatharian thread got it back in my head.

I generally give people plenty of leeway to be weird. I mean, who am I to judge? However, sometimes I just can't help but be concerned about people's mental well being.

Where do you draw the line between say speaking with gods and auditory hallucinations, or practicing magic and delusion?

I tend to think about things in terms of my experiences. I know something is real if I can hold it in my hand or see it with my own eyes. Therefore it makes me really uncomfortable to think about how my perceptions could just, one day, decide to be wrong for a change. Or that they might already be, and I just haven't noticed.

At least when it comes to keeping an eye on myself, I try to keep three things in mind.

One: Peer verification, as in comparing my perceptions to those of others. Two: Self reflection, as in asking myself why I believe the things I do. Three: Where's the harm, is what I am doing hurting anyone. (Including myself)

That still leaves the problem of other people though. Then again, I tend to write off other people's problems as none of my business. As long as I don't think they're likely to be dangerous in some fashion, then how can it be my business?

I mean, who cares if someone believes in fairies or the healing power of love? So long as the fairies aren't telling them to kill, or they think their diabetic child doesn't need insulin if they just love them hard enough. Then it becomes a problem.

Even though I tend to dismiss people's paranormal/supernatural experiences out of hand, I am still open to the possibility that weird stuff happens. I just think that “weird stuff” will always have a rational and natural explanation. Even if it is not always immediately apparent.

So, my socks could have been stolen by gnomes. In as much as something conceivably gnome-like absconded with them, but it is infinitely more likely that they just fell behind the dryer or between the couch cushions.

As Foreman said, “When you hear hoof beats, think of horses and not zebras.” Then again, as Sherlock Holmes said, “Eliminate all other factors and the one which remains must be the truth.”

I'm just going to stop here, before I just spiel ever onward into an essay on my (Atheistic) views on the world. So, let's bring it back to y'all then. Thoughts?

[MoonRaven]

Re: The line between spirituality and madness

Honestly, as long as no one is harmed I don't really care if people's beliefs are delusional or not. They are free to believe in God, Allah, Kali, Freya, The Giant Spaghetti Monster, Alien saviours or whatever they want to. As long as they don't try to render them universal, because beliefs cannot be proven (and just try to prove a negative) and therefore their validity cannot be made universal but must remain personal.

As for myself I use number two and three of your rules, concidering the level of stupidity rampant in the world most other people's opinions doesn't really count to me. Also a lot of what I believe is based on my own personal experience and it is difficult to check that against anyone elses and get a useable response, because people experience things so differently and the human brain and human memory is so selective and maleable.

Regarding Foreman's saying. That wouldn't hold true in say Africa, where zebras might be more likely that horses (plus there's the possibility of a mule or an ass), and what are you to do if you're not in Kansas anymore?


Sorry if I'm rambling here, it's been a very long day. Will return to this tomorrow.

[Aeran]

Re: The line between spirituality and madness

As far as I can manage to do so, and lacking any obvious factors that lean me one way or the other (eg. if someone is displaying some kind of untrustworthy or delusional behavior then I'm going to be skeptical about what they say even if the possibility is in line with my personal experiences, or on the flip side, if someone can provide a solid explanation of how and why something is possible and/or some kind of evidence of the phenomenon in question, then I'm going to be more inclined to believe them even if what they're claiming falls outside of the realm of my own experience and understanding) I try to make a point of reserving judgement on other peoples claims, beliefs, and experiences. Unless I have firm evidence one way or the other, I file it in the 'I just don't know,' category until I can further establish the veracity of the claim.

I make a point of this because so much of what I've experienced within the last few years of my life falls well and truly outside of the boundaries of what I had previously believed to be even remotely possible. If 5 years ago I would have totally rejected things which I now have (effectively) absolutely no doubt about, I can't necessarily know that the things I feel inclined to totally reject presently won't turn out to have at least some element of reality to them after all, when I take new experiences and changing perspectives into account in the future.

If you want a great example of this on a historical scale, read up on some science texts from the late 19th century - on the whole, they were so damn certain that the world worked in the way they understood and that they pretty much had it pieced together and just had to fill in the corners, there were so many things they had a concrete, unshakeable belief in which today we totally write off as a society - and conversely, so much that we take for granted (relatively, quantum physics, the internet, etc etc etc) would sound like the most absurd fantasy to them - all because they lacked experience with and understanding of those things. How do we know that the beliefs of the present won't be the same, a hundred years from now?

[Denarius]

Re: The line between spirituality and madness

Regarding Foreman's saying. That wouldn't hold true in say Africa, where zebras might be more likely that horses (plus there's the possibility of a mule or an ass), and what are you to do if you're not in Kansas anymore?

It's a metaphorical zebra. As in it's more fruitful to address the likely explanations before addressing the unlikely, otherwise nine times out of ten you are just going to be wasting your time. The "zebra" in this sense is an unnecessarily exotic and unlikely alternative to a more mundane and reasonable explanation, the "horse."

[B. de Corbin]

Re: The line between spirituality and madness

I'm pretty pragmatic.

If a thing improves one's quality of life, and/or that of those with whom one interacts, it is useful.

If it doesn't, it is neutral.

If it harms self and/or others, it is not useful.

The validity of the experience, which can't always be determined anyway, is irrelevant.

I don't claim to have any Great Cosmic Knowledge, but if more people were pragmatic in this way, and less concerned about "truth," the world would be a much better place.

History will judge.

[Ektor]

Re: The line between spirituality and madness

As Terence McKenna would put it, the mystic swims where the madman drowns. I have a set of values, where the most important is loyalty and the second is temperance; no matter what you believe, you have to be able to use this belief as a tool for improvement in your life. I think it starts falling in delusion and madness when it engulfs your life in such a way it starts to drag you down.
I've chatted with many crazy homeless people, and there's something really distinct in crazyness, even if a good part of it has religious overtones, they're just immersed in a really delusional belief system that's completely nonsensical and directly impedes them to live a healthy life.

[Aeran]

Re: The line between spirituality and madness

I've chatted with many crazy homeless people, and there's something really distinct in crazyness, even if a good part of it has religious overtones, they're just immersed in a really delusional belief system that's completely nonsensical and directly impedes them to live a healthy life.

This is a good point. You can tell true psychotic delusion from a mile off. Comparing genuine spiritual belief, however misguided, to mental illness is also pretty offensive to both sides of the equation imo.

By coincidence I was doing some reading on this topic earlier today. I don't agree with everything in these articles, but they do make some good points:

http://chrisstedman.religionnews.com/2014/02/24/5-reasons-atheists-shouldnt-call-religion-mental-illness/

http://freethoughtblogs.com/brutereason/2013/12/07/what-this-depression-survivor-hears-when-you-call-religion-a-mental-illness/

http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/alanamassey/7632/religious_belief___mental_illness__a_more_venomous_response/

[Ektor]

Re: The line between spirituality and madness

Just to illustrate, one of those people I chatted with claimed the Holy Ghost could render him immaterial so he could pass through cars without being run off, make him immune to bullets, and he also told me in great detail how the Empress of Japan helped him in inventing the cellphone.

[Aeran]

Re: The line between spirituality and madness

Just to illustrate, one of those people I chatted with claimed the Holy Ghost could render him immaterial so he could pass through cars without being run off, make him immune to bullets, and he also told me in great detail how the Empress of Japan helped him in inventing the cellphone.

Putting aside the specific claims, there's also a whole pile of specific symptoms which manifest in mental illness - religious people don't suffer from lack of affect, disordered speech, etc.

[Denarius]

Re: The line between spirituality and madness

Comparing genuine spiritual belief, however misguided, to mental illness is also pretty offensive to both sides of the equation imo.

I'd just like to point out that A: I'm not saying that belief in the supernatural/religion is indicative of or equivalent to mental illness and B: I am not talking about mental illness specifically but more the relationship of perception and belief in the abstract. It's just that mental illness specifically, and more broadly psychology, has a lot to do with both of those ideas.

I understand that I believe the things I do because of the life I've led and the experiences I've had, so it's easy for me to put myself in other people's shoes and understand where they're coming from at least somewhat.

I wouldn't hang around here if I thought y'all were crazy and/or stupid now would I? I don't see myself as being particularly saner or more intelligent than the next guy, just the opposite some days.

[Aeran]

Re: The line between spirituality and madness

I'm just putting it out there for consideration, given the direction this conversation is likely to go in.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: The line between spirituality and madness

I'd just like to point out that A: I'm not saying that belief in the supernatural/religion is indicative of or equivalent to mental illness and B: I am not talking about mental illness specifically but more the relationship of perception and belief in the abstract

Brainy Quotes attributes this to Einstein:

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

So, using this definition, if one (no matter how wrong or deluded one is to begin with) can learn from errors, and modify one's beliefs and actions accordingly, then one is plenty sane.

On the other hand, Freud said "love and work, ...work and love, that's all there is.

So, if one's experiences lead them toward love, and toward the ability to work (for self, or others, or for cash), then one is sane, no matter what one's beliefs/experiences indicate.

Pragmatism. The proof of a thing is in it's end result. It's also good science.

- - - Updated - - -

Here's a VERY interesting article on this topic from Huff post:

Drawing The Line Between Religious Inspiration And Insanity

[Ektor]

Re: The line between spirituality and madness

Putting aside the specific claims, there's also a whole pile of specific symptoms which manifest in mental illness - religious people don't suffer from lack of affect, disordered speech, etc.

I've read a bit and watched some classes on the Stanford University Youtube Channel on schizophrenia. While not trying to sound like an armchair psychiatrist, yeah, there's an immense and very specific array of things that cause the spectrum of disorders which are schizophrenia. For example, while reading a bit on history of psychiatry, there used to be a debate whether madness was culturally created or actually, objectively real.

What modern psychatry defines as a disorder (my sister is a doctor so I get a peek in some definitons like that) is only those set of symptoms if they cause a drop in quality of life, impede happiness and cause suffering. Schizophrenia, which's classic "crazy people" in most of the times is followed by neurological misdevelopment in many receptors, specially some serotonin ones, causing people's brains to not work properly. This is why its onset is around the early 20's, because that's when the brain is finishing its development.

Basically, while people can call any personality trait that causes severe inability to be happy or function in society a "disorder", some of those are very much physiologic as well as psychologic. Depression is another example with problems concerning serotonin in the brain, people go through depressive cycles all the time, it's relatively normal, but people with depressive disorders are actually physically incapable of just getting over it.

[thalassa]

Re: The line between spirituality and madness

I don't necessarily equate mental illness with madness. Sure, in the very most simplistic dictionary definition, it means exactly that. But, it also means the act of raging, being in ecstacy, extreme folly, and/or frenzied. None of those things are specific to persons with mental illness. In literature, being "mad" means to be blind of reason...and not just of reason, but blind even to the blindness of reason. "Normal" people do that all the time.

Personally, I think anyone that is sufficiently passionate about anything that defies or bends what is reasoned or reasonable can be classified as this sort of "mad". Fan girls, Rush Limbaugh listeners, soccer moms, PETA advocates, gamers, gamblers--madness. I posit that we are all a little mad, somewhere.

As for the OP:

Where do you draw the line between say speaking with gods and auditory hallucinations, or practicing magic and delusion?

Yes.

I mean....right now, I'm sitting here, typing on a machine that will sent all this into a space that doesn't physically exist in order to share it with other people, while my kiddo watches a Minecraft video where some people made a cruise ship--people invested the time to work together in a place that does not physically exist, to build a replica of something that does, then made a video of it and shared in in another place that does not physically exist. What is that if not mad?

The human brain is an incredible thing. There have been any number of studies and brain imaging done on brain function in general, and during different religious experiences in particular (one sort of brief overview article)...but the gist of things is that our brains create false memories, it creates patterns where none exist (and we seem predisposed to faces), heck...it even creates what is "real" (as a thought experiment, try thinking about human discovery this way:Newton didn't just discover gravity, he invented it--prior to Newton, shit just fell down). Our brain can create a hand that isn't connected to our body (or in amputees, make them think their limbs are still present and/or in pain), mess up our perception, can make us think we are dead, can forget the faces of our loved ones, or even that our loved one is an imposter.

Speaking with gods or auditory hallucination? Well, something like 70% of of schizophrenics report auditory hallucinations...but auditory hallucinations are also reported in folks with PTSD, bipolar disorder, depression, anxiety (and specifically OCD), infections of the brain, high fevers, dementia, brain tumors and other focal lesions, epilepsy, withdrawal from alcohol, cocaine, and amphetamines, after the death of a loved one, a clinical lack of vitamin B1, low blood sugar, narcolepsy, low blood sodium, or nothing at all--apparently some 10-40% of non-psychiatric patients report auditory hallucinations (source, for about 2/3 of the previous sentence, some of the conditions come from other studies and articles). Interestingly (from the same source) the difference between psychiatric and non-psychiatric auditory hallucinations seems to be whether they are negative and negatively impact one's life (usually psychiatric) or positive and positively impact one's life (usually non-psychiatric). It is certainly possible that auditory hallucination (or any number of normal brain functions) can account for what we think of as god experiences.

Magic or delusion? I think I already posted a link about how our brains create patterns--we have an inability to process randomness as truly random. Evolutionary, this is actually a good thing. Better to run from the wind ruffling the leaves than be eaten by a tiger, yeah? (I think that was the example in the article, but it could have been from something else, lol--either way, it works) It is certainly possible that what we think of as magic is the delusion of seeing patterns where none exists.

I wouldn't though, say that these examples are a sign of madness (or of mental illness). Madness is a matter of context. Sure, I'm willing to guess that a number of religious persons are mad, but I think that has less to do with religious experience than religious zeal.

I think what this really comes down to is this--If religion is all in our brain, does it matter? Personally, I would say no. Like Corbin, I'm a pragmatist. Does it work? Evolutionarily speaking, I'd say yes. We may not like the results all of the time...but as a species, we've done some huge things (for good and ill) with it as a motivator.

[anunitu]

Re: The line between spirituality and madness

As to the effects of belief on madness,a story about someone I met in the mental health system. This guy had bitten his own thumbs off,and Why?. Because he grew up in a christian environment that stressed no masturbation,it being defined as an abomination. He was an obsessive about masturbation,and the guilt of that caused him to chew off his thumbs in order to avoid that perceived sin and punishment.

He might have had mental problems,but it seemed that the religious guilt made him more obsessive in his actions.