Struggling with spirituality big time

[jcaternolo]

I now almost fully believe that God is real, and that judgement day will happen. But I also strongly believe that God is evil. I can see how he could occasionally need to kill. I can see how he can often need to kill. But the fact is, I keep reading all these passages of him wiping out entire peoples, including babies, children, elderly. I came to understand why God wanted the Amekleites (sp?) wiped out. Because they weren't fully wiped out, and as a result, some of the survivors attacked the Isrealites later. But God has also specifically targetted children at least 1-2 times.

I know that God's ways are above our own, and we don't understand the full reason why God does certain things, but enough is enough. Murder is murder, no matter what. If I blindly excuse all of God's flaws behind a curtain of "we're only human, we're ignorant to God's ways", and everyone else does the same thing, he'll be allowed to keep doing horrific things to others, all under the guise of him being God and "knowing better". The Crusaders committed horrific war crimes against people, all in God's name. Brother rises up against brother, mostly because of the religions that are based on worship of this God. I refuse to stand for this any longer.

I sometimes thought of assisting Lucifer in turning people against God, but I don't know if Lucifer can be trusted, although I only have the Bible's information on him. Maybe he's like Prometheus, who only wanted to grant humans knowledge so they would no longer be simple minded servants to God. He saw that God was knowingly dangling knowledge just outside of humanity's reach, so he took pity on us.

And even if the Bible was right and it was wrong for Lucifer to tempt Eve, why did God allow Lucifer to tempt Eve in the first place? Why did God place the fruit so close within reach? Why didn't God start with Noah instead of Adam and Eve, if he knew they would sin? Why did God make his chosen people suffer through the Holocaust? (it's a part of Biblical prophecy, not the Holocaust specifically, but it mentions the horrors they went through in the Holocaust). Why are the punishments of a loving God so harsh, and visited on the son, even after God said they wouldn't be visited on the son? And how is it that there wasn't a rainbow until after the flood? God would have to suddenly change the laws of physics.

And if I do choose to turn against God, it doesn't matter what reason I'm doing it. I will be doomed to burn forever along with Lucifer and his fallen angels. I could just not worship him, I could live with that, because I'm still not supporting him, and I believe that all non believers will simply live far away from God's new kingdom, which won't be so bad. Many good people are non believers, so I would be in good company. But I feel a need to do something.

Edit: It's not so much about God killing people, it's that there were other options on the table, such as imprisonment, reformation, slavery (as bad as it is at least it would allow people to live), etc. But no, God just kills a ton of children who didn't even know any better, to punish someone else.

[Valhalla]

Re: Struggling with spirituality big time

The genocidal monster from the desert has no power in the eyes of the Gods of the North. Believe in your ancestors, believe in the gods which promote human consciousness, and you need not fear this creature. It has power only over those who think it has power. It will certainly not burn you forever... unless you submit and let it.

-Valhalla

[Malflick]

Re: Struggling with spirituality big time

Well, I don't the Old Testament is 100% accurate. Much of it is a cultural history, or fables, and thus are stories explaining things about how the world works, or why and how the Israelites killed so-and-so. I don't take the stories at face value, they were written down by people and hence, inaccurate.

Not to mention that there is plenty in the Old Testament no sane person should believe in- like that in the sky there is a giant metal done surrounded by water (which also beneath the soil under us) that has tiny pin prick holes that occasionally the rain comes in through. I mean, that clearly does not exist.
Taking the Bible literally can be dangerous, as so many fundamentalists show. Literal interpretations of the Bible are actually a fairly recent phenomenon anyways...

So, did God slaughter a bunch of children? Probably not. Did a bunch of people who worshipped YHWH kill a bunch of children and pass it off on YHWH? Possibly. Did those children ever exit to begin with? Who knows!

What matters is what you get out of the Bible, the stories that give hope that God will never abandon his people, the stories about God freeing his people from slavery, and giving his only Son in sacrifice for them. That's really the key.

* * * * *

A different interpretation (one which is not my own). Many have found it difficult to find commonality between the Old Testament God and the God of Jesus. Many people have therefore come to the interpretation that they are two separate gods. I don't think that, but I thought I'd mention it.

Also, its entirely possible as well that God is nature, and hence destroys children and people casually because God's path is the same path that causes both flowers to bloom and parasitic larva to eat the brains of their hosts.

Also, its possibly God was sort of jerk and changed his mind over time and eventually became a nicer God, culminating in Jesus.

Just a bunch of options there for you. I wish you luck in your spiritual quest, and I hope you find answers that work for you ! -Mal

[jcaternolo]

Re: Struggling with spirituality big time

Thanks for the posts. I will see if I can learn to meditate so I can maybe come into contact with the truth. Also, I was thinking of learning how to lucid dream, although lucid dreams can be dangerous because then I would probably only dream what I want to dream, which wouldn't get me any closer to the truth.

[Malflick]

Re: Struggling with spirituality big time

Thanks for the posts. I will see if I can learn to meditate so I can maybe come into contact with the truth. Also, I was thinking of learning how to lucid dream, although lucid dreams can be dangerous because then I would probably only dream what I want to dream, which wouldn't get me any closer to the truth.

Good luck! Let us know how it goes.

[Ektor]

Re: Struggling with spirituality big time

There are so many more "Gods" than the Christian one. Why should you recluse yourself to only possibly believing in it? So many cooler deities! I'm suspicious to talk, but look into Pantheism!

[Medusa]

Re: Struggling with spirituality big time

If you view god by only what you read in the bible, you are going to have a very stressful time of your life.

[Aeran]

Re: Struggling with spirituality big time

If you view god by only what you read in the bible, you are going to have a very stressful time of your life.

This. Stop taking the Bible as literal truth and look at the cultural context within which it was written, that will give you a better understanding of why the 'God' depicted in the Old Testament is so awful.

Although I'm kind of confused about why someone who seems to believe in Biblical literalness is asking for spiritual advice from a bunch of people who would be, by the Biblical standard, heathens, heretics, sinners and devil worshipers.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Struggling with spirituality big time

I am curious, Which bible are you reading? I find there are so many various books that have been removed from various bibles that if you take the time to read all of the "Removed" books you can get quite a bit of a different perspective. That's not even counting the various translations and perspectives found in many modern translations or updating of word usage.

[thalassa]

Re: Struggling with spirituality big time

J--I'm wondering what denominations you might have grown up in? Why do you think this way? You describe yourself as agnostic, but clearly you *believe* in YHWH in some way...or perhaps, a better descripition is that you fear him.

Personally, I think it is pretty clear, from looking at the history of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and the evolution of our views about God, that these concepts have nothing to do with God (should God exist) and everything to do with humanity and our ideas about God from a cultural, historical, and personal standpoint.

The Bible is a record of Christian myth--its not factual commentary of events. It contains many, many contradictions and even outright mistakes. You might consider reading some of the writings of Bart Ehrman--he used to be an evangelical and is now most definately not--he's also a Biblical scholar and professor.

[Alienist]

Re: Struggling with spirituality big time

I don't see the Bible as God's word, but it's humans trying to interpret God's word. A kind and loving god wouldn't encourage genocide. It's probably that one of the fanatics that wanted to take over a certain land and said "God told me to do this" and who's going to argue with God? So the authors wrote that down in the bible.

[jcaternolo]

Re: Struggling with spirituality big time

This. Stop taking the Bible as literal truth and look at the cultural context within which it was written, that will give you a better understanding of why the 'God' depicted in the Old Testament is so awful.

Although I'm kind of confused about why someone who seems to believe in Biblical literalness is asking for spiritual advice from a bunch of people who would be, by the Biblical standard, heathens, heretics, sinners and devil worshipers.

Because I feel much more at ease here. If I posted all this on a Christian forum, I would possibly have a moderator disable my posting priviledges and ask me to pm him when I'm fully back to Christianity. And since this is the Abrahamic Traditions board, I knew that others who believe in Yahweh will notice my topic and give insight.

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J--I'm wondering what denominations you might have grown up in? Why do you think this way? You describe yourself as agnostic, but clearly you *believe* in YHWH in some way...or perhaps, a better descripition is that you fear him.

Personally, I think it is pretty clear, from looking at the history of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and the evolution of our views about God, that these concepts have nothing to do with God (should God exist) and everything to do with humanity and our ideas about God from a cultural, historical, and personal standpoint.

The Bible is a record of Christian myth--its not factual commentary of events. It contains many, many contradictions and even outright mistakes. You might consider reading some of the writings of Bart Ehrman--he used to be an evangelical and is now most definately not--he's also a Biblical scholar and professor.

Most of my knowledge of the Bible, I learned from when my stepfather had me watch Biblical videos, while he'd read Bible passages to me. I didn't understand them for the most part. When I turned 25, I moved out on my own, and have been trying to learn more about the Bible through the internet. And most of the passages I've heard of came from the KJV. I've jumped back and forth between Christianity, Paganism, and Agnostic. I'm currently Christian again, because Biblical prophecy is coming true. Even if most of the Bible is false, I know that the prophecies are very real, because everything in Revelations has either happened, or is being set up to happen. America is Babylon the Great, God is set to use Russia to punish her. The Russian prime minister threatened to turn the US into radioactive ash, and I'm a strong believer in the NWO conspiracy theories. The Great Seal on money is the seal of Lucifer (according to prophecy experts) which is giving the NWO more and more power to establish the one world government. I want to escape this country before it's too late, but I'm waiting for the word of the modern day prophet to move. I'm scared shitless, but apparently, the word to move will be loud and clear, and he'll have signs of God's authority just like Moses did, according to prophecy experts. Even if I can break out of my group home and leave, I have no idea how to convince my family to move with me, although then again, my stepfather is Christian, so God may use him to convince the rest of my family to move.

[Aeran]

Re: Struggling with spirituality big time

Because I feel much more at ease here. If I posted all this on a Christian forum, I would possibly have a moderator disable my posting priviledges and ask me to pm him when I'm fully back to Christianity. And since this is the Abrahamic Traditions board, I knew that others who believe in Yahweh will notice my topic and give insight.

I'm glad you feel at ease enough to raise these issues here - perhaps consider what that says about the Bible and it's ability to make mistakes like any other text.

[Malflick]

Re: Struggling with spirituality big time

Although I'm kind of confused about why someone who seems to believe in Biblical literalness is asking for spiritual advice from a bunch of people who would be, by the Biblical standard, heathens, heretics, sinners and devil worshipers.

I've asked for advice here to. Unfortunately a lot of Christian forums can be hard to get good advice from as they draw in some very extreme people who it can feel uncomfortable asking the advice from.

Of course asking a question on a forum like this has its own problems, there will often be someone who has to chime in to tell the poster they shouldn't be Christian at all, but being that I don't frequent any Christian forums at all and I trust many of the posters here... Well trust in my book counts for a lot. I feel safe asking questions here. And I'm glad the OP does to!

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Because I feel much more at ease here. If I posted all this on a Christian forum, I would possibly have a moderator disable my posting priviledges and ask me to pm him when I'm fully back to Christianity. And since this is the Abrahamic Traditions board, I knew that others who believe in Yahweh will notice my topic and give insight.

- - - Updated - - -



Most of my knowledge of the Bible, I learned from when my stepfather had me watch Biblical videos, while he'd read Bible passages to me. I didn't understand them for the most part. When I turned 25, I moved out on my own, and have been trying to learn more about the Bible through the internet. And most of the passages I've heard of came from the KJV. I've jumped back and forth between Christianity, Paganism, and Agnostic. I'm currently Christian again, because Biblical prophecy is coming true. Even if most of the Bible is false, I know that the prophecies are very real, because everything in Revelations has either happened, or is being set up to happen. America is Babylon the Great, God is set to use Russia to punish her. The Russian prime minister threatened to turn the US into radioactive ash, and I'm a strong believer in the NWO conspiracy theories. The Great Seal on money is the seal of Lucifer (according to prophecy experts) which is giving the NWO more and more power to establish the one world government. I want to escape this country before it's too late, but I'm waiting for the word of the modern day prophet to move. I'm scared shitless, but apparently, the word to move will be loud and clear, and he'll have signs of God's authority just like Moses did, according to prophecy experts. Even if I can break out of my group home and leave, I have no idea how to convince my family to move with me, although then again, my stepfather is Christian, so God may use him to convince the rest of my family to move.

People have lined nations and people up with those 'prophecies' for eons now... But I'm still of the belief that the book of revelations isn't a book of prophecy at all but a book using intense symbology to mask a commentary about the oppression of the author and his fellow Christians at the hands of the Roman empire. The connections in the text to Nero and other Roman figures of the time is pretty compelling.

I also don't buy into any of the NWO stuff at all, so I can't really help you there...

[thalassa]

Re: Struggling with spirituality big time

I want to escape this country before it's too late, but I'm waiting for the word of the modern day prophet to move. I'm scared shitless, but apparently, the word to move will be loud and clear, and he'll have signs of God's authority just like Moses did, according to prophecy experts. Even if I can break out of my group home and leave, I have no idea how to convince my family to move with me, although then again, my stepfather is Christian, so God may use him to convince the rest of my family to move.

People hae been believing that they are in the End Times, and that the situation around them matches Revalations on and off since it was written. Revalations is not a prophecy, its a history, written in a specific Jewish literary tradition that was co-opted by early Christianity. Revalations is a manmade text (as is the entire Bible) and was included in the Bible as out of fear, in order to control the diversity of early Christiainity. It is a book about the Roman Empire, not the American non-Empire.

I think you should think about widening your sources of information about Christianity--go to a UCC, or Episcopalian, or even a Catholic church. Heck, talk to pastor/minister/priests of some mainline denominations. Read some scholarly works on the matter, watch some documentaries that aren't church propaganda. Even if you dismiss opposing information, at least you've seen that there are other views, and discovered what they are.

Mark 13:32 says that no man, no angel, no one but God, the Father knows when the end will come. If I were Christian any longer, I'd pay more attention to the words of Jesus, and less to some dude that was a victim of Rome.