Indiana's Right to bear arms law

[Medusa]

So I know we have many gun right activists here. And I'm actually fine with most of the views etc. But then sometimes I think the need to have a right gets pushed over the need for some basic common sense. Not all the time. But sometimes. And maybe something like this. I'm understanding of wanting to protect your kid at your local youth soccer game. Because you know..people be trying to kill you there day in and day out I guess. Whatevers. But I just don't think it's a good idea.

In line with his history of support for gun rights, Gov. Mike Pence signed into law Wednesday a measure to allow adults to keep guns locked in their vehicles in school parking lots.

"Governor Pence believes in the right to keep and bear arms," spokeswoman Kara Brooks wrote in an email, "and that this is a common sense reform of the law that accomplishes the goal of keeping parents and law-abiding citizens from being charged with a felony when they pick their kids up at school or go to cheer on the local basketball team."

There's been so much concern about school security and school safety, so why would we do something that has the potential of easily jeopardizing that with readily accessible guns in cars on school property?" asked JT Coopman, executive director of the Indiana Association of Public School Superintendents.

gun sauce

[Denarius]

Re: Indiana's Right to bear arms law

Problem? Gun violence in schools. Solution? More guns.

Flawless logic.

Still, if the people want more guns then let them have more guns. They can live in gunland if they want to, where they can frolic in fields where guns are like daisies and ammo is like grass. If it causes a gunpocalypse, then they'll have no one to blame but themselves.

[Torey]

Re: Indiana's Right to bear arms law

I can't see how this law is actually accomplishing anything. Prohibiting guns at schools isn't trying to take away rights - it's trying to protect children in one specific location...one in which they should feel safe.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Indiana's Right to bear arms law

I always hesitate to jump into gun law debates, because you know... Australia has no 'right to bear arms'.

But this is completely and utterly alien to me. Parents actually WANT to take guns to their kids' school? They WANT to put guns in reach of school-violence perpetrators? Why, exactly?

Australia has strict gun laws. You are ONLY allowed to own a gun here if you get a permit, and you need a damn good reason if you want the permit. Hunters and farmers can get gun permits. It's not like no one can have a gun. It's just that personal protection is not considered a legitimate reason. And I am perfectly okay with that. I'm not naive enough to think that it stops gun crime or keeps guns out of gangs... but it has put a dent in Australia's gun crime and it just makes sense to me.

I honestly do not understand how letting parents take guns to school is supposed to help anyone or make the kids safer. Because that's just what we need... scared parents protecting their kids from imaginary threats at a school soccer game. Yep.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Indiana's Right to bear arms law

The law banning guns within school zones is Federal. Granted, I think the current version should have been struck down like the original as an overreach of Federal authority but it is both Federal law and has been upheld at trial. Barring some very careful and precise hoop jumping to bypass it, taking advantage of Indiana's new law merely makes you a valid target for the ATF. I'm getting really tired of states that feel empowered to encourage violation of US law.

[Roknrol]

Re: Indiana's Right to bear arms law

I think the common assumption is that kids and guns can't mix.

I think that's a fallacy. I think that kids - unchecked and untrained - shouldn't be anywhere near a gun (at least, a gun that's accessible), but it doesn't take a friggen genius to teach a kid the dangers and the rules. It really really doesn't.

Now, what baffles me about this isn't that teachers/parents want to bring their guns to school, it's that the "gift" that they're giving is going to be completely useless. If the idea is that we can bring guns on campus to protect the kids (during an "event", you know), leaving the gun in the car isn't going to do jack shit for defending the kids.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/14/famous-luby-massacre-survivor-to-senate-im-not-a-victim-of-guns-but-of-lawmakers-who-legislated-me-out-of-the-right-to-protect-myself-and-my-family/

That illustrates what I'm talking about, simply enough. For those of you that don't want to read it, the short version is that a woman (legal gun owner, with a conceal permit) decides to leave her gun in the car while they go to breakfast. Someone robs the place, kills a bunch of people, and leaves. Her stance is that if she had been allowed to carry her gun inside, there would have been a different outcome (one I fail to disagree with).

As I've gotten older, the one thing that I can honestly say that I have learned is this: Kids (and adults) won't learn a goddamned thing unless they have to. Take all of the guns away? Kids have no reason to learn gun safety, and teaching it becomes a joke (it's like the friggen DARE program). As soon as that happens, the bullshit starts flying, and honestly, given the choice of the two I'd rather have bullets than bullshit.

For those of you in other countries this topic is far far bigger than those of us from the US would be able to explain in any reasonable manner. We can talk all about history and explain the reasons and the why's, but they still won't make sense because you're in a different culture with different ideals. For 200 years the US ideal has been: The guy with the most guns wins. We became a country because of that, and we've managed to prove it time and time again. The flipside of that is that when I say "the guy with the most guns", I'm not equating Americans with American Government. Not only are they two completely different things, but really we are completely on two different "sides". So taking the guns away from the citizens? Means the Government wins - and hey, bonus - now the people that we're abusing have less of an opportunity to fight back.

No thanks, even though I don't carry a gun, I would in a heartbeat and I don't see any problems with that. I have problems with supid people doing stupid things, but stupid people can do stupid things without having guns accessible - just look at Florida.

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The law banning guns within school zones is Federal. Granted, I think the current version should have been struck down like the original as an overreach of Federal authority but it is both Federal law and has been upheld at trial. Barring some very careful and precise hoop jumping to bypass it, taking advantage of Indiana's new law merely makes you a valid target for the ATF. I'm getting really tired of states that feel empowered to encourage violation of US law.

Sorry - missed this when I originally skimmed the thread.

You do realize that the Federal Government (as laid out by the US Constitution) was never intended to have control over State Laws, right? The whole idea between "seperate but equal" was spawned from different people wanting different things and deciding that they were ok if their neighboring state did things differently. Of course, 200 years of abuse has changed that a bit, but there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with a state deciding to do things their own way. Sure, they'll lose Federal funds (as Nevada does), but that's a problem that the state has to deal with, not the Feds.

Honestly, I'm probably just as sick of the Federal Government overstepping their bounds to tell the rest of us how we get to live. Allow the states to do their jobs, and we'll start seeing some changes (sure, some for the worse, as places like Kansas and Texas remove all vestiges of Science from the classrooms). It won't take long before people from "stupid" states stop being able to get jobs...and then you'll start seeing the states get back on track. As long as Uncle Sam is running the show, people don't even have the opportunity to fail...and failure is one of the most powerful learning tools that exists.

[thalassa]

Re: Indiana's Right to bear arms law

Having a gun and even being trained still means people can die.

case in point

[Roknrol]

Re: Indiana's Right to bear arms law

Well yeah, but such is the case with virtually everything, isn't it? Just because people can be shown how many of what medication to take doesn't mean they don't screw up. People drive recklessly. By establishing gun laws, not only are you (not you specifically, of course) drawing a very arbitrary line between what is deemed safe or not, and at the same time you are preventing fellow Americans their duty to take up arms against a Government that is out of control.

Of course, we aren't there yet...we may never get there (but I suspect that's false optimism). I doubt we'll even get there before I die. But *when* we get there - whenever that may be - I want to make damned sure that I've done everything in my power to ensure that my offspring have a fighting chance. Stripping away their right to self-defense might save a few stupid people (and victims, of course, but if you're hanging around stupid you shouldn't be surprised to get some on you), but encouraging self-defense through firearms would probably accomplish the same thing.

I'm a big boy. I may or may not trust my neighbors, but I damn sure trust myself, and when I'm ravaged by a pack of horny cheerleaders, I have to at least have a fighting chance. A gun evens those odds.

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Utlimately, of course (at least IMO at any rate) this discussion illustrates *precisely* why different states should be allowed to have different laws. You don't want guns around you? Cool - move to a state that's banned guns. Don't mind the danger? Move to Texas - you get my meaning...

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And honestly, wouldn't that work as a phenomenal social experiment? Free people being free, discovering what actually works instead of allowing the most obnoxious and self-absorbed among us stack the deck in their own favor?

[Medusa]

Re: Indiana's Right to bear arms law

You want to have a gun. Sure.
You want to carry a gun into school. I don't think that is wise. It's pretty dumb.
You want to leave your gun in a car at school. Guess who would be the ONLY kids getting into that gun? Probably a kid that is not in their seat at the moment learning or pretending to learn. More or less the exact kind of kid that should not be near a gun in the first place.


Guns don't keep you safe from being an idiot.

[Roknrol]

Re: Indiana's Right to bear arms law

Nope, they sure don't, and idiocy is already far too protected in this country. Let the stupid sort itself out. Yeah, it'll take some of the best and brightest with them, and that's a bummer, but I think on an evolutionary level we have to eventually let go of the nanny state. Let people grow up (or die trying). Like I said, after the first couple of kids lose some friends, the first few adults lose some kids, etc, it won't be a problem. You almost never saw this sort of thing in rural areas where keeping a gun in your car meant that you were in FFA. Kids don't HAVE to be stupid, but we are raising them in an environment where ignorance is easier.

By the way, I really don't feel that I'm even entitled to an opinion on the school thing - I don't have kids in school, and won't. The decision doesn't impact myself or my kid - but when my kid was in school I don't remember feeling any differently about it

[anubisa]

Re: Indiana's Right to bear arms law

I think that people have the right to bear arms. I obtained my first gun in South Carolina for protection and put it in my dresser for safety and only told one friend and my parents. I think, however, it depends on why you have a gun and you should be really careful if you have children. I don't luckily (unless you count the fur children). I've heard and read too many news reports about children shooting other children because they thought that the gun was a toy. I think you have a right to guns, but please be careful. They aren't toys and if you have children you definitely need to talk to them about the seriousness of a gun. I'm definitely not trying to lecture here. This is just my opinion.

[ChainLightning]

Re: Indiana's Right to bear arms law

My only concern, with this development, is simply what happens to me if I'm on the way home from a competition, at the shooting range, and stop to pick my kid up from school. Without this new law, in Indiana, I would be committing a felony, yes?


It reminds me of the bozos that won't let parents get their kids from school unless the parent is driving a vehicle. No vehicle? You don't get to have your kid.

You have a gun in your car? You can't pick up your kid.


Yeah. The stupidity bugs me. Nothing more.

[Medusa]

Re: Indiana's Right to bear arms law

My only concern, with this development, is simply what happens to me if I'm on the way home from a competition, at the shooting range, and stop to pick my kid up from school. Without this new law, in Indiana, I would be committing a felony, yes?


It reminds me of the bozos that won't let parents get their kids from school unless the parent is driving a vehicle. No vehicle? You don't get to have your kid.

You have a gun in your car? You can't pick up your kid.


Yeah. The stupidity bugs me. Nothing more.

I agree to an extent of what you are saying. But what is a more likely scenario:
You picking up your kid from school after your day out with the guns.
Some kid breaking into your car and stealing your gun and going nuts in the school?

Being that this is America, I'm betting number two is way more likely.

[ChainLightning]

Re: Indiana's Right to bear arms law

Way more likely and way more common.

I can't deny that. But the stupidity behind charging me with a felony, for no good reason, just that have a gun or guns locked up in my car, just bugs me.





Now, truth be told, I don't bring guns onto school grounds. Never have, never will. But the fact that I have a history of *near* felony conviction makes me anxious about this here *near* felony charge. Guns & schools shouldn't mix, end of story. However, putting laws in place that catch the honest instead of the criminals is a bit like giving the fox free run of the hen house.


Do I agree with what's happening in Indiana, with this state law? Not exactly. I'm not exactly against it, either. I just thing that there's too much stupid in the recipe.

[LunarHarvest]

Re: Indiana's Right to bear arms law

In my opinion, guns are for those citisens who require them for survival or professional uses like sport. Other than that the ownership and use of firearms should not extend beyond specialist police forces and military forces. Even in the cases of these uses the owning and usage of firearms and weapons should be strictly regulated and controlled even for the police and the military.

In my view, there is no such thing as a right to own or use a weapon, and I surely would not want a firearm anywhere near a school or other area where children could easily be placed in harms way. Gun violence, and violent crime in general, is a symptom and the focus should be on its causes rather than simply try to expand the means for such violence to occur easily.