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    Christianity and a Return to the Early Church

    Well today is April 14, and the actual day that Jesus was crucified (Nisan 14).

    In 5 days Christians will be going to good Friday services and then hunting for eggs on Sunday.

    It is the most important day in the Christian belief and so I thought I'd start a discussion about how mainstream Christianity has become so far out of touch with their own faith. Was it deliberate? Was it a simple wandering away?

    What aspects of modern Christianity do you see as being counterfeit to the early church? How do you think it happened and why?

    Your considered thoughts are welcome.

    #2
    Re: Christianity and a Return to the Early Church

    I think this is largely an illusion, there's this idea that the Early Church was somehow less corrupt and closer to God, but looking at historical evidence it's been just like that since ever. Also, Early Christianity differed immensely in doctrine to modern one; mainly there was no canon, heavy gnostic influence, no formed idea about the divinity or nature of christ, no temples or defined liturgy.

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      #3
      Re: Christianity and a Return to the Early Church

      Originally posted by DON View Post
      What aspects of modern Christianity do you see as being counterfeit to the early church? How do you think it happened and why?

      Your considered thoughts are welcome.
      That would depend on which early church you're referring to. Just after the crucifixion, there was already a rift between Jewish Torah-observing Christians (James' following) and Gentile converts who didn't need to become Jewish (Paul's following).
      There once was a man who said though,
      It seems that I know that I know,
      What I'd like to see,
      Is the I that knows me,
      When I know that I know that I know.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Christianity and a Return to the Early Church

        As a gentile, I guess I am referring to the grafted branch.
        Yes Ektor, this is exactly what I'm referring to. Temples, cannon, liturgy etc are all religious traditions imposed by man.
        By the early church, I guess I mean the time before the roman catholic church came to prominence.

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          #5
          Re: Christianity and a Return to the Early Church

          Honestly, the worship of Jesus as part of god...and the entire New Testament outside of the direct teachings and words of Jesus during his lifetime. I don't think Jesus thought that he was any more the son of YHWH than every other human being was the son (or daughter) of YHWH. I think he thought his purpose was to help the Jewish people be in better concert with YHWH, period, end of story. I think all of Christianity is pretty much a heresy of Jesus' purpose. Now, since I'm not a follower of Jesus, I don't really care whether or not its a heresey. Though I do find some amusement when denominations or individuals thing they are better Christians or more theologically correct...

          Edited to add: I also think that, while Christians get it wrong in terms of fulfilling what Jesus thought he was here for, that I also think that those denominations that get the spirit of Jesus' teachings the best are generally the progressive, liberal, modern denominations that are based in promoting social justice.
          Last edited by thalassa; 16 Apr 2014, 02:59.
          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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            #6
            Re: Christianity and a Return to the Early Church

            Originally posted by DON View Post
            As a gentile, I guess I am referring to the grafted branch.
            Yes Ektor, this is exactly what I'm referring to. Temples, cannon, liturgy etc are all religious traditions imposed by man.
            By the early church, I guess I mean the time before the roman catholic church came to prominence.
            Interesting. So you equate early Christianity as the time before there was a codified liturgy, temple/church worship, and church canonical law? How do you reconcile this with the fact that Judaism was temple-based? How do you reconcile this with the Didache, specifically Chapter 9?

            I would suggest you attend a Jewish service. Then, attend either a Catholic mass or Orthodox liturgy and look at how strikingly similar they are.

            In my opinion, the apostolic churches who retain high-liturgy services and apostolic succession (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian, Anglican/Old-Catholic, and Lutheran) are the closest to the early church that was born from Judaic temple-based worship.

            The modern church gets criticism from me for seemingly focusing on two things: contraception and abortion. That seems to be all they care about. If they attacked poverty and supported widows and orphans with as much fervor as they try to ban condoms and women's health centers they'd probably get much more support.

            I also disagree with them for not allowing women's ordination; Protestant hyper-iconoclasm; the Western focus on Augustine's view of human nature rather than that of Pelagius; and the idea of Hell being a place of eternal punishment, rather than a temporary place where one is purified (apokatastasis). I'm also very, very skeptical of plenary indulgences, especially when it comes to doing violence against people.

            I'm also vehemently against doctrinal and church-sponsored mob attacks on art, literature, and science, such as the razing of the library of Alexandria and the bonfire of the Vanities. Such destruction should be one of the worst sins in the entire universe.
            There once was a man who said though,
            It seems that I know that I know,
            What I'd like to see,
            Is the I that knows me,
            When I know that I know that I know.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Christianity and a Return to the Early Church

              Originally posted by DON View Post
              It is the most important day in the Christian belief and so I thought I'd start a discussion about how mainstream Christianity has become so far out of touch with their own faith. Was it deliberate? Was it a simple wandering away?

              What aspects of modern Christianity do you see as being counterfeit to the early church? How do you think it happened and why?
              I think that all religious expression is essentially man made, and evolves as man's understanding of the Universe, of mankind, or existance changes. I'm not sure whether or not Jesus understood that, but if he did, the only Christianity that is counterfeit is that which doesn't seek to change, which doesn't seek greater understanding, and which doesn't seek greater love. Jesus himself said that all Law was based on the two greatest commandments--loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself. When our understanding of how laws are used to divide grow, love must deepen. Inauthentic faith uses Law to divide.
              A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe,' limited in time and space. He experiences himself...as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a prison for us... Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the of whole nature in its beauty...
              --Albert Einstein

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Christianity and a Return to the Early Church

                The Didache seems to me to be a foundational work for the establishment of a religion. Religion means rules and traditions imposed by people, to control and restrict other people.

                This is exactly the type of thing Jesus spent so much time fighting with the Jewish authority over. Judaism was / is indeed temple based. Christianity is not. The "temple" or consecrated place is within the individual and occupied by the Holy Spirit. Judaism is a religion weighted down with thousands of rules, rituals, and restrictions that did not come from God.

                What you get hot under the collar about is simply the modern equivalent of the same very old problem. Congregations doing these things you describe is actually anti-Christ like and I seriously question what the heck they're thinking. These acts are not Christian. They are religious / political endeavours cloaked under the guise of Christianity. They rely on the ignorance of the public, and the passivity of the body of Christ to get away with murder (quite literally).

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Christianity and a Return to the Early Church

                  Originally posted by DON View Post
                  Well today is April 14, and the actual day that Jesus was crucified (Nisan 14).

                  In 5 days Christians will be going to good Friday services and then hunting for eggs on Sunday.

                  It is the most important day in the Christian belief and so I thought I'd start a discussion about how mainstream Christianity has become so far out of touch with their own faith. Was it deliberate? Was it a simple wandering away?

                  What aspects of modern Christianity do you see as being counterfeit to the early church? How do you think it happened and why?

                  Your considered thoughts are welcome.
                  I know there are some Christians who look to the early church as described in the Epistles as a model of personal conduct and 'corporate' (want to find a better word meaning 'altogether as one') church style. When I meet people like this, it's because they're really dissatisfied with the 'mega church' model, usually.

                  My personal belief is that we shouldn't really be looking to the early church for answers on how to do church today because it's a completely different political climate for one, and also because we have 2 millennia of history under our belts and we should be using that history to learn, not to revert. However, to quote Labrynth's Wiseman and the Hat: 'The way forward is sometimes the way back.'

                  So, I'm going to interpret your reference as 'the early church' to mean what should be a core function/attribute of the meta-church, considering what's presented to us in the New Testament.

                  There's two things on my heart about this.

                  The very first is that instead of being ushers, we have become gate-keepers. Meaning, Jesus was all about accepting whomever in whatever state they came to Him, but we tend to turn more people away than we invite. There are a few exceptions to this rule, but I find many modern evangelical churches are very vain and image focused. There's an opulence about these kinds of churches (in its building and its members) that makes certain groups of people feel unwelcome - particularly the poor. From what I've seen, people from a low socio-economic background are more like a novelty in a church like this than an accepted part of the group. They either become pet projects of certain church leaders (in which case everyone else wants to help as well depending on the popularity of the leader), or they are left to figure out for themselves what to do and largely ignored until they can work out how to mirror what is displayed before them. Don't even get me started on the LGBT community. To me, they are the modern day lepers of the church. The church feels she can decide who gets to participate and who doesn't.

                  With our mouths, we preach acceptance in God for everyone, but with our actions we communicate that only a certain type of person can fully participate. That call is really not ours to make, it is between the individual and God. This happened in the early church, too, when Messianic Jews began to pressure Gentiles to be circumcised. Paul countered this by reminding his readers (the Galatians) that citizenship in the Kingdom of Heaven is about the heart, and not about outward appearances. He strongly rebuked them saying that if you're going to get circumcised to prove your covenant with God, all it shows is that Christ's sacrifice means nothing at all to you. Christianity never was and never will be about showing yourself to be the right type.

                  How do I think this focus on image happened and why? I think Christianity is experiencing an identity crisis. I think there are business-minded people in the church with the right heart who are seeking to market church to certain types of people to appear more relevant in a modern society in order to bolster numbers. Imo, it comes down to wanting to remain powerful. Numbers equate with power and influence and some churches remodel themselves entirely because they feel they are fulfilling their call to seek and save the lost. I think they are misguided, because it's all just paint, lights and fluffy words.

                  On that point of identity crisis, in our attempt to disassociate from Judaism early on in the piece, Christianity has become like an orphan. In his book 'Liberating the Gospels,' Rev. Shelby Spong recounts a little on church history. He reminds the readers that once, the earliest Christians were in fact Jewish. The general gist of things went similarly to how a church split would.. for a little while, Messianic Jews and traditional Jews would share the same temple and traditions etc. Tensions rose between the two groups, partly over theology, partly over political pressures and eventually there was a split. He explains it properly, but that was the general gist that I picked up on. So, after that there was a move to dissociate from Mosaic law and Jewish heritage. That disassociation has carried down now 2 millennia later to a point where we are now going through an identity crisis without a proper understanding of our Jewish heritage. We understand what pet teachings etc has put great restrictions upon our faith, so we try to go back to what our original teachings were. For western Christians, that means an attempt at interpreting a sacred Jewish text from a literal English translation. We have no understanding of cultural and historical context. We don't understand the languages used to write the text, or the styles that the authors used. We don't understand the cultural history of the audience being written to, and so we don't fully comprehend what the authors are trying to convey. Many preachers and teachers now just simply read the English Bible and rely on personal and shared gnosis to confirm what the text is saying, so we just keep teaching and passing down the same messed up stuff. A complete overhaul in approach to the study of and attitudes toward scripture is needed imo. What was an inherently Jewish attitude towards scripture was the idea that scripture was multi-faceted. One of the tests for a young Jewish boy to become a Rabbi's disciple was not how much scripture he knew, but the questions he asked about the nature of God based on those scriptures. Questioning was valued, and it isn't now.

                  Sorry if the post seems disorganised. Ask clarification on anything you like.. I spent a bit of time on it but I have to go to an appointment now.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Christianity and a Return to the Early Church

                    Originally posted by DON View Post
                    Well today is April 14, and the actual day that Jesus was crucified (Nisan 14).

                    In 5 days Christians will be going to good Friday services and then hunting for eggs on Sunday.

                    It is the most important day in the Christian belief and so I thought I'd start a discussion about how mainstream Christianity has become so far out of touch with their own faith.
                    Originally posted by Azvanna View Post
                    How do I think this focus on image happened and why? I think Christianity is experiencing an identity crisis.
                    Originally posted by GabrielWithoutWings View Post
                    Just after the crucifixion, there was already a rift between Jewish Torah-observing Christians (James' following) and Gentile converts who didn't need to become Jewish (Paul's following).
                    The Jewish People observe 7 days after the Passover, and the Gentiles changed the observance into 5 days after the Passover (Easter Holiday)?

                    Jewish People Celebrate Crucifixion on the 14th
                    Jewish People's Calendar Begins on the 15th

                    14th - Moses - Passover At Evening - Daily Sacrifice
                    LEVITICUS 23:5 In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD'S passover.
                    LEVITICUS 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month [is] the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

                    15th - King David - Passover At Morning - No Daily Sacrifice
                    (12 Hour Shift)
                    I SAMUEL 3:14 And therefore I have sworn unto the house of Eli, that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be purged with sacrifice nor offering for ever.
                    I SAMUEL 3:15 And Samuel lay until the morning, and opened the doors of the house of the LORD. And Samuel feared to shew Eli the vision.
                    15th - Christ - Passover at Morning - He is the Sacrifice (7 Days Shift)
                    LUKE 21:38 And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.
                    LUKE 24:1 Now upon the first [day] of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain [others] with them.
                    Christ Rose on the Morning after a Week of 7 Days, from when he spoke at the Passover in the Morning in the Temple. Christ Rose on the 15th a Sunday, completing the revelation given in Leviticus, we quote above, that says: After Seven Days They will Eat the Flesh of Christ and Drink his Blood at the Passover when He rises.

                    So the Gentiles changed the Unleavened Observance to 5 Days from the 14th, instead of 7 Days (from the 15th), to create the last 12 Hour Shift that begins with the Cosmic Shift, making it 8 Days total Passover Shift. (The Word Night is given to us 8 times in the book of Revelations, and if we count the passover shift its only 7 1/2 Hours thus far).

                    15th - Antichrist - Passover at Evening - Christ Abolished as Sacrifice
                    REVELATION 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
                    REVELATION 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
                    Morning to Evening 12 hour shift, or Day forever to Night forever. Thus making it the 8 Days Completed at this time of shifting.
                    Last edited by frankincense; 17 Apr 2014, 14:09.

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