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    Claudia Procula (Pilate's Wife)

    Lets have a sane reasonable discussion here!

    So, one aspect of Jesus' death that has always intrigued me is the role of Pilates' wife Claduia Procula:

    While he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent to him, saying, "Have nothing to do with that righteous man, for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him." (Mathew 27:19, I think)

    TLR: She warns Pilate to not kill Jesus cause she had a prophetic dream.

    Seriously honey, just listen to me, killing Jesus is bad mojo. Like really bad. Oh great, I tell you to do something and you turn right around and do the other. Typical, Pontius. I wanted to hire Jesus to cater, I heard he makes great wine.

    Now, obviously this is a tale that only appears in one gospel, and the argument could (and has been) made that because this story is unique to Mathew it is an invention of that Gospel. Lets just acknowledge that that counter argument exists, that many early Christians REALLY wanted to appease Rome and not be persecuted, and many were Romans and didn't like Pilate being the bad guy. We also know that early writers often embellished stories, and adding in a prophecy after the fact was also common. Okay? Okay. Cause frankly the whole "its probably not true so why bother talking about it?" line of thought is a bit boring. We all know it could be apocryphal, whats more interesting to me are the implications if it IS true.

    Am I a prophet? Yo, I might be.

    Basically, in this scenario YHWH chooses to go talk to Claudia in a dream and say "hey girl, I just wanted to you know this might go badly." (Indeed it did, as Pilate governorship wasn't a happy one and he eventually ended up falling on his own sword like a good Roman after a huge amount of personal shame.)

    So, who was Claudia (Working under the assumption of course that that story is literally true, and happened)? Was she a seer along the lines of Cassandra? A lady who YHWH just thought he'd throw a bone to?

    Some early Christians thought that Claudia became a Christian and is the Claudia mentioned in the Bible.

    Personally, I find the idea of Claudia being a seer who got a vision from YHWH to be pretty nifty, maybe just because I like characters like her and Cassandra who know whats up and nobody listens to. But I'm curious what you guys think! What do you think of Claudia's story, do you think it was YHWH warning her, or another God or Goddess like Apollo telling her to get going out of Jerusalem while the getting was good (or at least not kill YHWH's kid, he'd NEVER let us hear the end of it, UGH.)?

    I really should have taken Ambien (TM!).... Yes, I heard you the first time random angel.

    (PS: Yes, I also know Claudia Procula is her name handed down by tradition, and its possible she wasn't named that. I find it more respectful to talk about her by that name than by just calling her "Pilate's wife" though.)

    So.... Discussion go, if you want to talk about her .
    hey look, I have a book! And look I have a second one too!

    #2
    Re: Claudia Procula (Pilate's Wife)

    This falls under me being a terrible former Catholic because I never heard of her. My issue with the LoH delivering the message to her is that it would seem to be counterproductive. The death and ressurrection were part of the plan, talking Pilate into telling the Jewish authorities to screw off because Rome won't be executing a righteous man sort of gets in the way. I'd be more inclined to lean toward someone else warning her or her just being a natural precog. Well, that or the LoH was just setting up in advance causus belli to inflict grevious harm on the people who physically nailed his kid to a cross. He is vengeful when adequately pissed off.

    Of course, if death by Rome followed by ressurrection was plan B and there a different plan originally then the whole thing gets interesting but that's a significant deviation from every doctrine I know of.
    life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


    Comment


      #3
      Re: Claudia Procula (Pilate's Wife)

      Originally posted by Malflick View Post
      Lets have a sane reasonable discussion here!

      While he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent to him, saying, "Have nothing to do with that righteous man, for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him." (Mathew 27:19, I think)


      Personally, I find the idea of Claudia being a seer who got a vision from YHWH to be pretty nifty, maybe just because I like characters like her and Cassandra who know whats up and nobody listens to. But I'm curious what you guys think! What do you think of Claudia's story, do you think it was YHWH warning her, or another God or Goddess like Apollo telling her to get going out of Jerusalem while the getting was good (or at least not kill YHWH's kid, he'd NEVER let us hear the end of it, UGH.)?

      [ATTACH=CONFIG]3052[/ATTACH]
      Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
      Well, that or the LoH was just setting up in advance causus belli to inflict grevious harm on the people who physically nailed his kid to a cross. He is vengeful when adequately pissed off.
      For Thousands of Years, the Jewish People alone were the keepers of God's Word the Bible. It was the Jewish People alone that carried the gospel and made churches for it, and not an outside institution.

      Essentially, since Jesus had been born, and the word had been made flesh, Christ was ordaining non-Jewish People to carry and keep his gospel, and declare it to the people. Before the Catholic Church had been form, it was the Roman Army that essentially had been endowed with this task, that no group of people since the creation of the earth had been tasked with.

      When the alien was sent with Jesus, as a blessing for the Church and to mitigate the Jewish People's claim to the gospel with man in what he was doing by ordaining non-Jewish churches to preach and keep his word. This alien Mary Magdalene was much disputed. She was seen among the people as an everlasting token to the Jewish People, that they are the people of god, and an obstacle to the Roman Catholic Church of ever gaining true spiritual authority to teach the gospel. (To the jewish people, she represented the end of bondage and the separation of the gospel that prevented them from establishing their own country/nation).

      The Jewish people wanted the crucifixion to take place as they seen it as the mechanism to establish their country, but it was a gross sin to begin with, in the way in which they attacked the apostles, the early Roman Catholic Church, and the Gospel, took their aliens away.

      The Wife of Pilate Said: "I've suffered many things in a dream because of this man, crucify him not" ... What Pilate did in scourging Christ, was a kind of crucifixion, they celebrated his crucifixion by giving a crown of thorns, or a king's crown that shed his blood, to fulfill the language of the law. What the Jewish people did in crucifixion, although the bible predicted it, was a sin that elevated the Roman Catholic Church. Pilate's Wife suffered in a dream, because the Church was not able to be worshiped openly, because of the Jews and the Alien Christ sent for a peace offering.

      The Final Showdown


      The campaign was taking longer than Titus expected; the soldiers were becoming difficult to manage. They could see Herod’s temple, with its golden surfaces glittering in each evening’s sunset. Every soldier could imagine himself taking spoil of what lay beyond the walls. The Jews who tried to escape had their bodies ripped open, as pitiless soldiers searched their stomachs for jewels and gold.


      The Roman army gradually subdued the city, but was impeded when it reached the temple compound. The massive stone walls were impenetrable; the soldiers gained access by burning the great temple doors. Upon gaining entry, Titus commanded his men to put out the fire and “spare the Sanctuary.” But the Jews violently attacked those extinguishing the fire. The Romans retaliated with merciless slaughter; they went berserk — partly out of vengeance, partly with greed.


      As the battle raged on, suddenly, a soldier—without command—launched a torch through the Golden Window of the temple. Instantly, the flames licked the fabrics and wood that adorned the interior of that precious building. Titus again commanded his soldiers to put out the fire, but to no avail. The temple was lost. Eventually, the soldiers completely tore apart the compound, looking for rumored treasures. They plundered the city and extracted vengeance from the enemy that had resisted them so bitterly, and had cost them so much.

      christiancourier.com/articles/1261-siege-of-jerusalem-the
      Regardless of not being the sole heir and harbinger of the Gospel anymore, the Jewish people were tremendously inspired, into the discovery of exotic crafts, and many of them had left the gospel, and seen this as a way to gain independency as a nation. And finally gain a country for themselves, since they were unable to do this since creation, since the gospel was given.

      Given this fact, they also held to the Gospel, that no heathen could prevail against the church, and if a heathen beat against the foundation of the church, those people essentially were to die. so it is no wonder the Doors of the Church completed the Stone Walls around their city. So when the Romans set the Church on Fire, it was unclean to let them put the fire out, because it will give them authority over the church. So when fire was set, the jews threw themselves at the soldiers by the thousands, I do not dispute the account. And when the soldiers put out the flames on the door, and then set fire to the church. Thousands more Jews threw themselves at the soldiers, and many more fought them to death.

      I do not believe the Jewish people had swallowed gold, I believe they had tried to eat the gold of the gospel by trading the truth for money and things in an attempt to gain their kingdom. It is a sin to hold the church as the market place, Jesus warned the jewish people not to do this, and they did it anyway.

      Now the Holy Grail, and the Torch being thrown into the window. The Jewish people knew and experienced something that exceedingly motivated them to do evil in the church, regardless of the gospel being given or the Christ being resurrected. Gifts the aliens had given them they lost when Christ was risen because of what they've done, in their desire to gain a country for themselves. Something they never did do, but I've prepared a country for them, a city the aliens helped build, and maybe inthe near future i will show this to you to be true.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Claudia Procula (Pilate's Wife)

        Originally posted by frankincense View Post
        For Thousands of Years, the Jewish People alone were the keepers of God's Word the Bible. It was the Jewish People alone that carried the gospel and made churches for it, and not an outside institution.

        Essentially, since Jesus had been born, and the word had been made flesh, Christ was ordaining non-Jewish People to carry and keep his gospel, and declare it to the people. Before the Catholic Church had been form, it was the Roman Army that essentially had been endowed with this task, that no group of people since the creation of the earth had been tasked with.

        When the alien was sent with Jesus, as a blessing for the Church and to mitigate the Jewish People's claim to the gospel with man in what he was doing by ordaining non-Jewish churches to preach and keep his word. This alien Mary Magdalene was much disputed. She was seen among the people as an everlasting token to the Jewish People, that they are the people of god, and an obstacle to the Roman Catholic Church of ever gaining true spiritual authority to teach the gospel. (To the jewish people, she represented the end of bondage and the separation of the gospel that prevented them from establishing their own country/nation).

        The Jewish people wanted the crucifixion to take place as they seen it as the mechanism to establish their country, but it was a gross sin to begin with, in the way in which they attacked the apostles, the early Roman Catholic Church, and the Gospel, took their aliens away.

        The Wife of Pilate Said: "I've suffered many things in a dream because of this man, crucify him not" ... What Pilate did in scourging Christ, was a kind of crucifixion, they celebrated his crucifixion by giving a crown of thorns, or a king's crown that shed his blood, to fulfill the language of the law. What the Jewish people did in crucifixion, although the bible predicted it, was a sin that elevated the Roman Catholic Church. Pilate's Wife suffered in a dream, because the Church was not able to be worshiped openly, because of the Jews and the Alien Christ sent for a peace offering.

        The Final Showdown




        Regardless of not being the sole heir and harbinger of the Gospel anymore, the Jewish people were tremendously inspired, into the discovery of exotic crafts, and many of them had left the gospel, and seen this as a way to gain independency as a nation. And finally gain a country for themselves, since they were unable to do this since creation, since the gospel was given.

        Given this fact, they also held to the Gospel, that no heathen could prevail against the church, and if a heathen beat against the foundation of the church, those people essentially were to die. so it is no wonder the Doors of the Church completed the Stone Walls around their city. So when the Romans set the Church on Fire, it was unclean to let them put the fire out, because it will give them authority over the church. So when fire was set, the jews threw themselves at the soldiers by the thousands, I do not dispute the account. And when the soldiers put out the flames on the door, and then set fire to the church. Thousands more Jews threw themselves at the soldiers, and many more fought them to death.

        I do not believe the Jewish people had swallowed gold, I believe they had tried to eat the gold of the gospel by trading the truth for money and things in an attempt to gain their kingdom. It is a sin to hold the church as the market place, Jesus warned the jewish people not to do this, and they did it anyway.

        Now the Holy Grail, and the Torch being thrown into the window. The Jewish people knew and experienced something that exceedingly motivated them to do evil in the church, regardless of the gospel being given or the Christ being resurrected. Gifts the aliens had given them they lost when Christ was risen because of what they've done, in their desire to gain a country for themselves. Something they never did do, but I've prepared a country for them, a city the aliens helped build, and maybe inthe near future i will show this to you to be true.
        TL; DR: Claudia is an alien? :cthulhu:

        Malflick, I really like this thread. Claudia is someone I haven't thought about much before, so I'm interested to hear other people's opinions on her experience. Also, I have no idea who Cassandra is. I'm going to assume she's a character in Dr. Who, oh Timelord Apostle?

        I have this pet ideology that the gospels supported a really early form of women's lib! I know that at the time of Jesus' ministry, the testimony of a woman was not honoured (No, dear reader, I don't have a source. I read it somewhere, some place in the last 15 years). In the gospels, I see stories that seek to restore the honour of women. The very first people given the privilege to declare the risen Christ were women. My first thought of Claudia's experience is that her vision is an extension of this theme. It's like God is showing the male population that women do in fact know what they're talking about from time to time, that they are more than included in His plan - they are central to the unveiling of it.

        Another explanation on this could be Claudia might be a parallel to the Jewish ladies who visited the tomb post resurrection. Through the testimony of a woman, Pilate was convinced to attempt to remain innocent of Jesus' crucifixion. Through the testimony of the Jewish women, the disciples were invited to be the first to receive the work of the cross at its completion. Through the testimony of women, both the Romans and the Jewish were given the opportunity to understand the deeper aspect of Jesus' divinity.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Claudia Procula (Pilate's Wife)

          In case you aren't aware, Pontius Pilate is considered a repentant saint in the Oriental Orthodox communion, specifically the Coptic church.
          There once was a man who said though,
          It seems that I know that I know,
          What I'd like to see,
          Is the I that knows me,
          When I know that I know that I know.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Claudia Procula (Pilate's Wife)

            Originally posted by GabrielWithoutWings View Post
            In case you aren't aware, Pontius Pilate is considered a repentant saint in the Oriental Orthodox communion, specifically the Coptic church.
            Do they give a reason?
            life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

            Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

            "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

            John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

            "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

            Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


            Comment


              #7
              Re: Claudia Procula (Pilate's Wife)

              Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
              Do they give a reason?
              Because he repented and became a holy person and all that. Generally due to the Gospel of Nicodemus, specifically the Acts of Pilate.
              There once was a man who said though,
              It seems that I know that I know,
              What I'd like to see,
              Is the I that knows me,
              When I know that I know that I know.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Claudia Procula (Pilate's Wife)

                Heh, I'd have to track it down. Interesting concept.
                life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Claudia Procula (Pilate's Wife)

                  Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
                  Heh, I'd have to track it down. Interesting concept.
                  Gospel of Nicodemus
                  There once was a man who said though,
                  It seems that I know that I know,
                  What I'd like to see,
                  Is the I that knows me,
                  When I know that I know that I know.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Claudia Procula (Pilate's Wife)

                    Full text link...

                    cool, thanks.
                    life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Claudia Procula (Pilate's Wife)

                      I think you could probably make a pretty good argument that Claudia's dream was a way of mitigating Rome's guilt (seen with the benefit of hindsight.) Matthew's gospel tends to be viewed as a Gospel for the Jews (while Luke's was for the Gentiles - and no, sorry I don't have the references with me at the moment.) But both these gospels relied upon something called the Q Source - there are some striking similarities (and of course differences) between the two.

                      Pontius Pilate washing his hands, Claudia's dream - they both serve to play down the fact that it was the Romans and not the Jews who crucified Jesus. Otherwise I think we could make a case that he would have been stoned to death (and instead of taking home small palms on Palm Sunday, people would have been taking home little stones instead.)

                      Part of the problem is that most people are reading the gospels in their own language and not in New Testament Greek. It is many years since Mr Penry taught me said language, but I do remember being astonished at the differences in interpretation.
                      www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                      Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Claudia Procula (Pilate's Wife)

                        Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
                        Matthew's gospel tends to be viewed as a Gospel for the Jews (while Luke's was for the Gentiles - and no, sorry I don't have the references with me at the moment.)
                        I'll back you up! Our source could be any modern study Bible with an Editor's introduction at the beginning of each book.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Claudia Procula (Pilate's Wife)

                          Originally posted by Azvanna View Post
                          I'll back you up! Our source could be any modern study Bible with an Editor's introduction at the beginning of each book.
                          I can back this up as well! My Bible-Study guide and a Documentary I recently watched said this as well .

                          - - - Updated - - -

                          I find it very interesting that in downplaying Pilate's guilt through Claudia's dream, it also separates Christian Jews who were trying at the time to distance themselves from the Traditional Judaism that had caused the many revolts in Judea through the many violent Messiahs who had come.
                          hey look, I have a book! And look I have a second one too!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Claudia Procula (Pilate's Wife)

                            in the meantime, I do remember this girl, Claudia, but she was always sort of mentioned in passing.
                            i don't know how I feel about the whole thing, she was not likely an accepted seer of Rome, or she would likely be doing something for the Romans. I.e spiritually. I never saw Pilate as being blame able for Jesus death tho. Pilate was the governor in charge, and the crowd was being manipulated by a few people with a measure of sway over the crowd. I always felt bad for Pilate and his wife, they never seemed like villains to me, her dream made that seem more so....
                            its worth reading up on a little, I may do that a wee bit later.
                            Last edited by MaskedOne; 19 Apr 2014, 06:08. Reason: removing reference to cut posts
                            http://catcrowsnow.blogspot.com/

                            But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness.... Which could obviously only be redeemed by passing through the fiery inferno of my digestive tract.
                            ~Jim Butcher

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Claudia Procula (Pilate's Wife)

                              Originally posted by Malflick View Post
                              I can back this up as well! My Bible-Study guide and a Documentary I recently watched said this as well .

                              - - - Updated - - -

                              I find it very interesting that in downplaying Pilate's guilt through Claudia's dream, it also separates Christian Jews who were trying at the time to distance themselves from the Traditional Judaism that had caused the many revolts in Judea through the many violent Messiahs who had come.
                              If you read one of the gospels carefully, you'll find there had been a rebellion in Jerusalem shortly before Jesus' arrest. In fact, that could well have been the reason why Barabbas (whose name literally means 'son of the father' which might in turn suggest that he was another claimant to be the Messiah) (you can find this much better argued in Brandon's The Trial of Jesus of Nazareth on page 147 or 148) It would also explain (a) why the crowd cheered for Barabbas and not Jesus and (b) why Pilate ordered Jesus's execution as INRI or King of the Jews. If I remember rightly, the Jewish priests protested at this, saying that Jesus had only 'claimed' to be King of the Jews, but Pilate would not budge. This was significant because what Pilate was essentially doing was trying to 'kill' not only Jesus, but the entire idea of there being a Messiah.

                              The idea of pardoning one criminal at the passover is hotly disputed of course and even Josephus never mentions it. The early Church, especially once Christianity was adopted by the Roman Empire, had to do its best to show the Roman presence in Palestine in the best possible light which is why - IMHO - I think the episode with Claudia's dream was included. But that's only my opiinion
                              Last edited by Tylluan Penry; 19 Apr 2014, 04:25.
                              www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                              Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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