The great e-cig ban begins

[Medusa]

So the local news in my area (LA county) is that e-cigs will be banned in bars and restaurants as of this Saturday. And in fact they are banned in the bowling alley where I work. Now some people say there is no problem with them. Some say it's just vapor coming out. Some say there are indeed trace chemicals being emitted.

I'm a non smoker. I'm fine with people smoking where I can't smell it. Because I like to not cough when I breathe. I don't want people to stop smoking. Just don't be rude. Which most smokers aren't. I've been asked many times if it's ok if someone smokes when we are outside, like at the bus. So I'm not anti smoke. I just don't smoke.

With that said. What do you think about the bans? I says 's' because it's sweeping the nation with the new bans as we speak.

[ThunderWolf]

Re: The great e-cig ban begins

I vape and occasionally smoke a cigar. I have no problem with the bans so long as I'm still able to do it in the privacy of my home. I'm used to the smoking bans, and quite frankly, as a vaper I can't imagine that the vapors don't have trace chemicals in them when exhaled. They certainly aren't all absorbed into the lungs of the person vaping. If people can be affected by secondhand smoke I truly believe they can be affected by secondhand vapors as well.

[Roknrol]

Re: The great e-cig ban begins

Fear mongering and a lack of understanding is what prompts this crap. Of course, I still believe that a business owner should be able to make the decision on what he or she is willing or not willing to allow in their establishment.

I think the laws are stupid for multiple reasons, but the nutshell is this: If you want smoking in our place, allow smoking in our place. If you don't, don't. If non-smokers don't want to patronize your establishement, they won't. Etc etc etc.

[thalassa]

Re: The great e-cig ban begins

What do you think about the bans? I says 's' because it's sweeping the nation with the new bans as we speak.

Honestly, I think in public places, it shouldn't be allowed until we have more data. When it comes to public health, I think we tend to be reactionary. In the privacy of your own home, vehicle, etc...go for it. Problem is that there are the potential associated health risks with ecigs, studies already show short term lung function decreases in users (there's not been enough time to study long term use). I can tell you that when my husband uses his, he can't do it in the house or the car or near me because it gives me an asthma attack...so obviously *something* is in there (actually, several somethings are in there...but they don't fall under labeling laws or testing or quality checks because they are unregulated, and while the main propellant is largely safe when used as a food additive...but just because something is safe to eat doesn't make it safe to breathe...). One of the problems with this sort of situation is that people can become sensitized to chemicals, which then cause reactions at very low levels (this is something we see with polyisocyanates, used in industry).

But until its been studied, no. We let too many new, invented and manufactured chemicals into our environment without any testing, each year. This is a serious public safety, public heath, and ecological risk, with longterm implications for the economy and the environment. I disagree that caution while waiting for data in light of what we know of toxicology is fear mongering.


Ever hear of the Radium Girls?

Leaded gasoline? (if you are watching Cosmos, this was recently talked about)

Arsenic soap?

[DanieMarie]

Re: The great e-cig ban begins

Hmmmmm. Since we don't really have much of a ban at all, I WISH people would smoke e-cigarettes more. It would be a great compromise for people like me (I have asthma and I'm allergic to smoke, and I've discovered that my situation is actually pretty common). As it stands, smoking is allowed in any bar under 75 square meters (ie most bars in Berlin) and in clubs where there's a separate smoking room, but that's NEVER policed. So, I'll spend 30 Euros on concert tickets at a venue that's not supposed to have smoking and then end up with an allergy attack for a week afterwards. E-cigs would be a blessing.

[Luce]

Re: The great e-cig ban begins

So the local news in my area (LA county) is that e-cigs will be banned in bars and restaurants as of this Saturday. And in fact they are banned in the bowling alley where I work. Now some people say there is no problem with them. Some say it's just vapor coming out. Some say there are indeed trace chemicals being emitted.

I'm a non smoker. I'm fine with people smoking where I can't smell it. Because I like to not cough when I breathe. I don't want people to stop smoking. Just don't be rude. Which most smokers aren't. I've been asked many times if it's ok if someone smokes when we are outside, like at the bus. So I'm not anti smoke. I just don't smoke.

With that said. What do you think about the bans? I says 's' because it's sweeping the nation with the new bans as we speak.

You would think that government and activists would be turning handsprings over the idea of people quitting actual tobacco. To jump on this with both feet while people are still deciding whether to switch over from what is definitely bad (tobacco) to what MIGHT be bad (e-cigs) seems to me to be counterproductive.

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Fear mongering and a lack of understanding is what prompts this crap. Of course, I still believe that a business owner should be able to make the decision on what he or she is willing or not willing to allow in their establishment.

I think the laws are stupid for multiple reasons, but the nutshell is this: If you want smoking in our place, allow smoking in our place. If you don't, don't. If non-smokers don't want to patronize your establishement, they won't. Etc etc etc.

Yep. The owner's decision should be posted at the door and in advertisements, as well, so there's no misunderstandings.

[DanieMarie]

Re: The great e-cig ban begins

When the owners decide whether or not to have smoking, pretty much all of them choose it. So there's no choice out there for people who decide not to smoke.

It's not just a matter of patron choice either. The staff has to work in those conditions as well. And as I mentioned in another thread, recently, the idea of employees "choosing" where to work is laughable in a lot of places. Here in Berlin, it's downright hilarious (14 percent unemployment, yo...not counting anyone who has flat-out given up). On top of that, I'm a part-time singer, and let me tell you...when you're a professional or semi-professional musician, you CANNOT be choosy about where you play. There are only so many places that hire musicians, and those are continually dwindling in favour of playing iTunes playlists. I'm really, really allergic to smoking, so I have to be choosy. Which means that my music career is pretty limited. Which makes me lividly angry. If you smoke, you can still choose to smoke outside. You can go take a smoking break and give yourself cancer at will. If there's a ban, people can choose to go wherever they want or work wherever they want and be free of smoke, and you can still smoke. As I see it, everyone wins. If there is no ban, people who don't smoke have to figure that out, and TRUST ME (because once again, bans are poorly enforced and only partially existent here in the first place), the choices are extremely limited. Even though lots of people smoke here, smokers make up only 30 percent of the population, but they get to dictate the air quality of almost every nightlife option? Thanks for that.

I think e-cigs are a good compromise though. I mean, they may have negative health effects, but they aren't as bad as cigarettes, and in places like Berlin, I think they could be a good transition device.

[thalassa]

Re: The great e-cig ban begins

It's not just a matter of patron choice either. The staff has to work in those conditions as well. And as I mentioned in another thread, recently, the idea of employees "choosing" where to work is laughable in a lot of places.

This.

I think e-cigs are a good compromise though. I mean, they may have negative health effects, but they aren't as bad as cigarettes, and in places like Berlin, I think they could be a good transition device.

I think that one is still open to investigation, depending on what all is actually in them, and how they affect the aveoli in the lungs over the long term.

[DanieMarie]

Re: The great e-cig ban begins

I think that one is still open to investigation, depending on what all is actually in them, and how they affect the aveoli in the lungs over the long term.

I see what you mean. I just sort of feel at the end of my rope here in Berlin and am desperate for anything to replace the clouds of smoke I encounter everywhere I go. Preferably, people wouldn't smoke at all, but they're really reluctant to that idea. My boyfriend won't even let go of the idea that smoking and bars/pubs/clubs/music venues go together. We've had many a fight about it. He's seen me have an asthma attack, but he just can't let it go.

[Roknrol]

Re: The great e-cig ban begins

DanieMarie: Of course you see it as "everyone wins", because you aren't losing any of your rights. Of course, "everyone" in your scenario means "everyone but the filthy smokers." You are gaining privilege at the expense of someone else's rights. That is where there's a problem. (I'm specifically referring, not to the right of the smoker to smoke, but the right of the business owner to run their business as they see fit. To put this into perspective, I'm fairly certain that you'd have a problem with someone telling you that you can perform music in Berlin all you like, but you are only allowed to play Polka's (because other music can be offensive to the patrons, of course!). Would you consider that a violation of your rights?)

You know, for all of the non-smokers bitching about how they can't go to bars if there's smoke in there, ever since they've enacted the bans I haven't been to a single bar. Not one. Gee...I've made a choice to not go to a bar...I wonder why the non-smokers can't make the same decision?

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: The great e-cig ban begins

Businesses will do as they will, but my preferences and rights take precedence on my property, and that's the issue with airborne things.

[DanieMarie]

Re: The great e-cig ban begins

DanieMarie: Of course you see it as "everyone wins", because you aren't losing any of your rights. Of course, "everyone" in your scenario means "everyone but the filthy smokers." You are gaining privilege at the expense of someone else's rights. That is where there's a problem. (I'm specifically referring, not to the right of the smoker to smoke, but the right of the business owner to run their business as they see fit. To put this into perspective, I'm fairly certain that you'd have a problem with someone telling you that you can perform music in Berlin all you like, but you are only allowed to play Polka's (because other music can be offensive to the patrons, of course!). Would you consider that a violation of your rights?)

You know, for all of the non-smokers bitching about how they can't go to bars if there's smoke in there, ever since they've enacted the bans I haven't been to a single bar. Not one. Gee...I've made a choice to not go to a bar...I wonder why the non-smokers can't make the same decision?

Well guess what....when you smoke, everyone who doesn't smoke loses their rights. I don't see why 30% of the population gets to make choices about air quality for the other 70% of people. In places where smoking bans have been in place, that number is even less. In BC, 10% of the adult population smokes...should those 10% of people get to clog up the air for the other 90%? Nope.

The world isn't "do whatever you want." We do not live in a lawless society, and I for one wouldn't want to. The laws and regulations we have are usually about making compromises so that the least amount of people are affected. In the case of smoking, that usually means smoking outside. I DO oppose BC's bans on smoking near doorways or on restaurant patios (come on, guys...calm down) for that reason...the compromise was good there. It's not just about me singing...I used myself as an example. It's everyone who works in a bar environment. And we're also talking about a situation where we have public health care, so affecting the health of those employees also costs everyone more money. I'll accept that smokers come with costs, because they pay extra taxes on their cigarettes anyway, so they pay for their vice, so to speak, and we all have unhealthy habits that cost the system money, but when you start adding people into the mix because you horribly pollute their work environment, I think that's a problem. Not to mention the fact that everyone should have the right to have a safe and healthy work environment and when you allow smoking indoors, you compromise that.

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Most people accept that you can't smoke in offices, because other employees should have a right to a safe and healthy work environment. Why is it so unreasonable to extend that right to servers, bartenders, bouncers, musicians, DJs, etc? If you own an office, allowing smoking in your place of business isn't one of your rights as a business owner. It shouldn't be different if you own a bar.

[Luce]

Re: The great e-cig ban begins

This.



I think that one is still open to investigation, depending on what all is actually in them, and how they affect the aveoli in the lungs over the long term.

I'm trying to imagine any effects that would be worse than those pumped down into them by actual cigarette smoke.

[Historyforall]

Re: The great e-cig ban begins

This business owners rights gets blown way out of proportion. Business owners used to not serve people based on their skin, looks and appearance. Long hair males during the 1960s were denied service in many places. This idea that a business can choose who to serve is wrong and the notion that people will just go somewhere else is a fallacy. They might be the only place in town for miles and we want them to be able to decide if they want to operate their business for you.

These vapors are liquid nicotine the its just water argument is undetermined. It can be just as addicting as tobacco and the vapors look like toys combined with flavors can lure kids to want to use them.

[thalassa]

Re: The great e-cig ban begins

I'm trying to imagine any effects that would be worse than those pumped down into them by actual cigarette smoke.

I can...its sort of what I do for a living. I'm not saying that I think its necessairrly worse (except perhaps for persons that already have lung issues or some chemical sensitivities, I'd guess that it at least marginally better), I'm just saying there are problems that havent been looked at (especially with the lack of labeling and testing and quality control) and there is an unknown factor here with regart to the possibility of sensitization or long term cumulative affects. Look at asbestos or polyisocyanates or popcorn flavoring & what those chemicals can do to lung function...