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    #16
    Re: Is the use of magic hubris?

    I tend not to do magic as a normal aspect of my pathwalk. Not to say I may not but when I do it is seldom for personal gain beyond what I need to survive. Many times it is more a sense of purifying my family ancestors, protections and such or of course the inverse of those specifics should such a situation occur.
    I agree with the saying above, since I don't use magic often but only in the time of need.
    But I think that it also depends on how we use our magic.
    I will give two situations in order to discrube my view:
    Let's take 2 people for the examples:
    1. If one can do fabulous and cool things using it, and the other can't, so it will certainly be hubris.

    2. But, if one of them is wounded or sick, and the other guy uses magic in order to help and heal the wounded fellow- then I wouldn't call it hubris.

    In my opinion, it's just a matter of using it in different ways.
    "Fair means that everybody gets what they need. And the only way to get that is to make it happen yourself."



    Since I adore cats, I might write something strange or unusual in my comment.Cats are awesome!!! ^_^

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      #17
      Re: Is the use of magic hubris?

      Seems to me that

      1. If you believe in multiple gods then magic could most definitely be considered hubris. I tend to notice that pantheons with multiple gods tend to separate certain aspects of "The Whole" and therefore, there's already an agent who should be prepared to better deal with any problem that would arise -- and, I assume, would do a better job at it than a puny human.

      2. If you believe in no gods/monotheistic/panentheism then magic would simply be a tool in the shed that we are free to use in order to help shape our personal worlds.
      No one tells the wind which way to blow.

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        #18
        Hellenismos and Witchcraft

        There has been consistent and heated debate between Hellenic Polytheists about whether or not the implementation of Witch craft deviates from the traditions of Hellenism because the principles of magic "coerce" the Gods to do the practitioner's bidding rather than petitioning/praying for assistance and that is a mark of hubris.

        They also argue that there is no factual or documented evidence to support the claim that the Craft was ever utilized by followers of Hellenic tradition.

        Personally, as an Eclectic Pagan who is now focusing his attention on Hellenismos/Hellenistic Recon., in my many years of practicing the Craft I have always seen spells and magic as a form of working prayer. However, Witchcraft is much more than merely casting spells or doing magic, it is taking the freedom and power given unto you BY the Gods to manifest desire. It is the craft of the wise for a reason.

        How is it that you guys feel about this?

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          #19
          Re: Hellenismos and Witchcraft

          The topic came up a few months ago so expect me to merge this with another thread later tonight (I have work in 5 minutes or I would now). General consencus was (I believe) that it depended on what you were doing and how you were doing it but I could be wrong.
          life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

          Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

          "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

          John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

          "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

          Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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            #20
            Re: Hellenismos and Witchcraft

            I'd think the presence of Defixiones (curse tables) would suggest otherwise. Granted there is a perception of good and bad magics. Yet I think that also goes back to the notion of how it was viewed. Consider during the archaic period the word Enchantress and Sorceress is used to describe what later people tried to identify as witchcraft. Yet at the time it would not really be seen as such. Even how they called upon or practiced was seen differently I think
            I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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              #21
              Re: Hellenismos and Witchcraft

              I would like to think that the Gods, Titans, and lower Deities would consider Witch craft as a proactive form of petitioning rather than an insult or hubris, personally. As long as respect is given where it is due for power given and imparted, I see no reason to believe why this would be a source of miasmic impurity.

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                #22
                Re: Hellenismos and Witchcraft

                That goes back to right though right practice. I think it also goes back to the notion of petitioning the gods / goddesses through appropriate offerings and such versus appearing to demand they do something by affixing their names to things to be done.
                I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                  #23
                  Re: Hellenismos and Witchcraft

                  I don't claim to be a practitioner of Hellenismos, and the manner in which I worship would be considered anathema to most reconstructionists, but as someone that mostly worships gods that originated with the ancient Greeks and practices a form of witchcraft, I don't personally see a problem. I disagree with the notion of a "the Craft"--witchcraft is nothing more than a set of practices that are not unique to any one culture or religion (although the details and exact rituals and materials differ)...and the ancient Greeks practiced quite a few things that fall into the category of "witchcraft"--cursing, divination, the use of amulets, love spells, etc. But...I can also see the problem of verifying the historicity of how witchcraft practices were actually practiced, and why that would be a problem for some.

                  I haven't read this, so I can't comment on it...but you might find this interesting:


                  I stumbled upon it awhile back, but haven't gotten around to it yet.
                  Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                  sigpic

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                    #24
                    Re: Hellenismos and Witchcraft

                    The two threads on witchcraft and hubris are now joined in not quite holy matrimony.

                    Let no mere mortal sunder that which the mods have joined.
                    life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                    Comment


                      #25
                      Re: Hellenismos and Witchcraft

                      Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
                      The two threads on witchcraft and hubris are now joined in not quite holy matrimony.

                      Let no mere mortal sunder that which the mods have joined.
                      So be it ordained!

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