Edda Discussion - H

[Crimson Horizons]

Re: Edda Discussion - H

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on August 03, 2009, 06:26:01 PM

Here's the verses for this week before I forget. I have a killer headache right now so I'll write out my interpretations of them later hopefully!


71
The lame rides a horse, the handless is herdsman,
The deaf in battle is bold;
The blind man is better than one that is burned,
No good can come of a corpse.


72
A son is better, though late he be born,
And his father to death have fared;
Memory-stones seldom stand by the road
Save when kinsman honors his kin.


73
Two make a battle, the tongue slays the head;
In each furry coat a fist I look for.


74
He welcomes the night whose fare is enough,
(Short are the yards of a ship,)
Uneasy are autumn nights;
Full often does the weather change in a week,
And more in a month's time.


75
A man knows not, if nothing he knows,
That gold often apes begets;
One man is wealthy and one is poor,
Yet scorn for him none should know.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Crimson Horizons on August 03, 2009, 08:22:28 PM

71- To me, this demonstrates that you are of more use if you are alive rather than the alternative. In a time where a family's very survival could depend on every one of it's members, I strongly agree. If you could still be of use to your family, do so.

72- I'm not certain if this is saying "it's better to have son rather than a daughter" or if it is implying that it's better to have children than not having them. I'm of the latter opinion, and I do believe that is what it says, but I am not certain from a historical or translation standpoint. The rest goes on to point out that only ones family will honour them when they are gone. I tend to agree; who will remember us if our family doesn't?

73- I find it interesting to see how the different translators treat this broken stanza. Bellows and Chisholm translate it as it remains, Bray combines it with stanza 74 as an extra large stanza, and Auden Taylor ignores it completely! I think I will follow the later and not comment on a broken stanza.

74- Be joyfull in a good days work if it provided enough provisions (food/money/etc.). Beyond that, I think this entire passage is devoted to general sea knowledge. Be wary of weather, that sort of thing.

75- Being rich does not necessarily make one a better or more worthy individual. As I have seen many times, the rich can be downright assholes who deserve none of my respect. On the flip-side, I have know many a poor wo/man who deserve more respect than any one person can give.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on August 04, 2009, 12:58:57 AM

DAMMIT Crimson, you took all of my interpretations >.>

Oh well. Basically Crimson said what I was going to, with the exception of the broken stanza. I'd call 74 one of the general warning stanzas that are peppered throughout Havamal, reminding you to keep your eyes open and your head up because who KNOWS what'll happen next. Expect (and thus, keep an eye out for) some level of treachery and you'll never be unpleasantly surprised.

I like to expect the best out of people, but it never hurts to at least be prepared for the worst. Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst, as I always say

EDIT: Oh yeah, I almost forgot to ask...once the Havamal is done with, who would like to just begin going through the Eddas in order, starting with the Poetic and going on to the Prose? A Skaldskaparmal discussion (in the far future) would do everyone some good, I think. If nothing else, Skaldskaparmal will just about kill us all, and what doesn't kill you makes you stronger!

I can organize it and post the passages for the week like I've been doing here, I'd just need to see if people are interested. Was talking with ThorsSon and he's up for it. Speaking of which, he should be along in this thread any day now, I've been pestering him to death about it...
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Crimson Horizons on August 04, 2009, 05:23:36 PM

Quote from: Thjoth on August 04, 2009, 12:58:57 AM
DAMMIT Crimson, you took all of my interpretations >.>

AHA! Now you know how I feel!

Go ahead and put me down for the further discussions. We've tried before, but now I think we have an active set of people interested this time around.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Maythe on August 05, 2009, 02:27:17 PM

I think 74's latter half is about weather and the seasons in general, as opposed to just the sea. I wonder if 'the yards are short' refers to the fact there's not much space on a ship and one feels cooped up?
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Crimson Horizons on August 05, 2009, 05:25:54 PM

Quote from: Maythe on August 05, 2009, 02:27:17 PM
I think 74's latter half is about weather and the seasons in general, as opposed to just the sea. I wonder if 'the yards are short' refers to the fact there's not much space on a ship and one feels cooped up?

I do believe the "yards are short" is a reference to a ship's sails, although I'm not entirely certain. I'll see what I can dig up.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on August 06, 2009, 10:51:26 PM

"Yards are short" would seem to refer to a broken mast.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Munin-Hugin on August 08, 2009, 07:10:29 AM

As for the broken stanza 73, it doesn't seem to fit in with the ones surrounding it, though the further along we get, the less related the stanzas are becoming.

I see it as stating that when people get together there is always the threat and possibility of violence , and that harsh words have the ability to make men give into emotion and lose their heads. The last line seems to indicate that one should continually expect violence or at the very least be wary of others.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Maythe on August 09, 2009, 06:21:12 AM

Quote from: Thjoth on August 06, 2009, 10:51:26 PM
"Yards are short" would seem to refer to a broken mast.

Why do you say that? 'Short are the yards of a ship' would seem to be a statement about ships in general rather than a particular incident.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: abdishtar on August 09, 2009, 06:45:40 AM

Quote from: Thjoth on July 27, 2009, 10:51:23 PM
66
Too early to many a meeting I came,
And some too late have I sought;
The beer was all drunk, or not yet brewed;
Little the loathed man finds.
"A man must be watchful and wary as well,
And fearful of trusting a friend."

67
To their homes men would bid me hither and yon,
If at meal-time I needed no meat,
Or would hang two hams in my true friend's house,
Where only one I had eaten.

Bray:

66.
At many a feast I was far too late,
and much too soon at some;
drunk was the ale or yet unserved:
never hits he the joint who is hated.


67.
Here and there to a home I had haply been asked
had I needed no meat at my meals,
or were two hams left hanging in the house of that friend
where I had partaken of one.

Chisholm:

66.
Far too early I arrived at many steads,
But too late at others,
The ale was already drunk or yet unbrewed.
The loathed find little among the folk.


67.
Here and there they had me in their homes,
if I was not hungry for meat
or hung two hams for the true friend
for the one I had eaten.

Anderson:

66.
Much too early
I came to many places,
But too late to others;
The beer was drunk,
Or not ready:
The disliked seldom hits the moment.


67.
Here and there I should
Have been invited
If I a meal had needed;
Or two hams had hung
At that true friend's
Where of one I had eaten.

It seems to me like it plays off verse 66, but that they arrived late for 66 so in verse 67 instead of making them go without a true friend gives them a bite to eat.

Saying a true friend will at least try not to let you miss out, or will help you when in need.

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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on August 09, 2009, 10:56:19 AM

Quote from: Maythe on August 09, 2009, 06:21:12 AM
Why do you say that? 'Short are the yards of a ship' would seem to be a statement about ships in general rather than a particular incident.

That verse seems to talk about the instability of Autumn weather, and the first line "He welcomes the night whose fare is enough" seems to be talking about someone who's had enough trouble during the day.

Then again, it's a bit of a stretch. Just randomly saying that the yards of a ship are short would be rather odd, so it has to be referring to something.

Maybe it's comparing it to the sky and bad weather? Compared to a storm, your ship's masts are especially tiny, so it would be a bad idea to challenge a great storm in your ship.

[Crimson Horizons]

Re: Edda Discussion - H

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on August 10, 2009, 12:31:11 AM76
Among Fitjung's sons saw I well-stocked folds,
Now bear they the beggar's staff;
Wealth is as swift as a winking eye,
Of friends the falsest it is.

77
Cattle die, and kinsmen die,
And so one dies one's self;
But a noble name will never die,
If good renown one gets.

78
Cattle die, and kinsmen die,
And so one dies one's self;
One thing now that never dies,
The fame of a dead man's deeds.

79
Certain is that which is sought from runes,
That the gods so great have made,
And the Master-Poet painted;
. . .
the race of gods:
Silence is safest and best.

80
An unwise man, if a maiden's love
Or wealth he chances to win,
His pride will wax, but his wisdom never,
Straight forward he fares in conceit.

76 - One day you could be on top of the world, the next day you'll be asking for coins with a tin cup. Wealth can vanish faster than anything else in the world, and even through no fault of your own. Just ask the Bernie Madoff victims, they'll tell you how true this stanza is.

77 & 78 - The most famous stanza of the Havamal, and it really doesn't need any interpretation. In the end, after you're dead, the only thing left in this world to remind people that you existed will be the fruits of your deeds, especially if they're great deeds. Think of all of the names mentioned on the Runestones scattered throughout Scandinavia that we still know today, in some cases a thousand years after the stones were raised, because of their deeds. Think of the great names in history that we still know because of their deeds: Alexander. Caesar. Spartacus. Cnut. The list goes on, and I've talked a lot on a verse that I said needs no interpretation

79 - In typical fashion, the line that's missing is the one that ties the whole stanza together. I really can't piece anything together out of it with any certainty. It could be saying that the Runes sometimes will be silent, as the Gods think that silence is safest and best; it could also say that when you seek an answer from the Runes, you shouldn't shout it from the rooftops. There's no way to really know, though, so this is all conjecture.

80 - Guys, two things will make you into a blithering idiot: Women and money. The best part is, you won't even care about what a complete moron you're being until it's too late. So true it hurts.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Gungnirs_course on August 10, 2009, 04:36:22 AM

also for 77 & 78, i think the reason cattle dieing is mentioned, is because cattle where used as a form of money.It think its saying that regardless of how much cattle you have etc,the only thing you'll be rembered for your deeds?
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Maythe on August 10, 2009, 11:24:19 AM

Even these days the death of a herd of cattle through disease can leave the farmer destitute. Just look at what happened to farming here in the UK when foot & mouth hit.

76 is another one that might have been well noted by bankers over the last 10 years or so....
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Munin-Hugin on August 10, 2009, 12:53:30 PM

76 I take a bit more from it. It comes across to me as as soon as someone realizes that you are wealthy, they will appear to be your friends only to ask for you to share your wealth.

You're right about 77&78. Nothing needs to be said.

79 to me states that the runes will always tell you the truth and will never lead you astray, as they come from all the gods, and were brought to light by Odin. Since Odin takes on the aspect of communication, seeing him as the Master Poet isn't much of a stretch. Yet sometimes, the information you glean from the runes, and thus from the gods, are for you alone and so should remain private.

80 As well as losing all sense of personal pride, you will gain the wisdom of your actions later, and thus can avoid such folly if it ever comes to pass again.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Crimson Horizons on August 10, 2009, 08:03:15 PM

76 & 77- Earn yourself a good name, and it will live well beyond your years. I would also like to point out that Chisholm translation lists "the doom of dead men" where others translate is as "the reputation of dead men" at the end of strophe 77. Makes me want to learn ON even more.

78- Money comes and money goes; be well prepared for it's loss. I would, however, love to know who Fitjung is. I'm at a loss on this one.

79- Don't let your money or your family make you arrogant; let your wisdom grow instead of your pride.

80- I go by Chisholm's translation mostly (as can be seen by the differing strophe interpretations in this post), but this strophe has vastly different wording that the two others I use, Thorpe and Bellows. Again, I don't know if Chisholm's is more accurate or not, and I would dearly love to be able to read ON myself.

*edit* Looking at the ON text provided here, Chisholm appears to have the most accurate translation. This really makes me question the accuracy of many of these translations.

It also brings up new questions. I know who Regin is (brother of Fafnir, foster father to Sigurdh), but I'm unfamiliar with Ginnregin, and the ON prefix Ginn. Also, I believe Fimbulthul to be one of the rivers that run out of Niflheim (there is a specific name for these river's as a whole, but it escapes me at the moment). Without knowing all the details of who/what these names represent, I'm loath to make an interpretation of strophe 80. It also makes me recommend Chisholm's translation very strongly after comparing it to the original ON texts.

[Crimson Horizons]

Re: Edda Discussion - H

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on August 17, 2009, 12:36:58 AM

You guys are lucky I'm coherent enough to update as I turned 21 today

This next section is a little tough to divide because of not one, but TWO massive shifts of subject within the next 5 verses from the preceding ones. I'm just going to post 4, and attempt to keep the different groups of verses together through this section. Also I'll post my interpretations later for obvious reasons

Oh, by the way, this is the section where Odin starts verbally abusing women in general but don't worry, ladies, he turns on the men on your behalf before too long.

81
Give praise to the day at evening, to a woman on her pyre,
To a weapon which is tried, to a maid at wed lock,
To ice when it is crossed, to ale that is drunk.


82
When the gale blows hew wood, in fair winds seek the water;
Sport with maidens at dusk, for day's eyes are many;
From the ship seek swiftness, from the shield protection,
Cuts from the sword, from the maiden kisses.

83
By the fire drink ale, over ice go on skates;
Buy a steed that is lean, and a sword when tarnished,
The horse at home fatten, the hound in your dwelling.

84
A man shall trust not the oath of a maid,
Nor the word a woman speaks;
For their hearts on a whirling wheel were fashioned,
And fickle their breasts were formed.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Crimson Horizons on August 17, 2009, 05:38:14 PM

Again, I suggest using Chisholm's translation, as it appears to be closer to the original text (but remember, my ON is spotty at best).

81- Don't put your faith in things until after they have proven themselves to you. I would also like to point out that in the Icelandic text, it says not to praise a torch until it has burned, and says nothing about a woman on her pyre.

82- This appears to be a list of common advise. I think it explains itself, really.

83- More common advise, but the end bears paying attention to. Feed your horses and hounds at home. To me, this helps give your animals a sense of where they belong, and who they are loyal to. Especially in the case of a horse, it can return home if its rider is lost, letting the family know their kinsman has fallen.

84- Good advise in certain contexts. As ThorsSon once said (and I paraphrase to the best of my remembrance), "just look at men and women who flirt in bars; we are less than honest when it comes to sex." A note on the spinning wheel; I believe it refers to the potter's wheel, likening a woman's heart to moldable clay; ever able to change forms.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on August 18, 2009, 12:16:08 AM

I think for the duration of Havamal I'll keep posting Bellows, as it's a little hard to change horses mid-stream in that respect. Everybody has the link to Chisholm now ([glow=red,2,300]now found at the beginning of this thread[/glow]), so we should be all set on translations.

Crimson basically hit all the points I would have, I'd just like to add a couple of things.

In stanza 83, talking about feeding your horse and hound at home, Crimson raises a valid point, and I'd like to also add that it would be fairly impolite to feed your pets over at somebody else's place on the food they intended for their own animals. So, the other way I take that line is to keep your animals taken care of at YOUR home, so that someone else doesn't wind up having to take care of them at their expense.

I'd also like to note that in stanza 84, it only says not to trust the oath of a maid. A maid by definition is an unmarried (or virgin) woman, which would imply during this time that we're talking about a very young woman, in her teens. I'm sure you've all heard really young girls/women make all sorts of insane promises that they never intend to keep, so I think this is what's being referred to here. An older woman, obviously, can be trusted just fine VERY generally speaking. I know, HUGE generalities in this interpretation but there you go.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Maythe on August 22, 2009, 08:42:54 AM

Is it possible that 81 can be interpreted two ways? First and most obviously in the way that you guys suggest - don't praise something until it's proven itself. But also it could be interpreted as 'these things should be praised at these times'... so one should give praise to a maid when she marries, to ice (or its spirits?) when you've safely crossed it and so on.

The second line of 83 is a bit confusing. Why buy a sword that's tarnished or a horse which is lean?
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on August 22, 2009, 11:30:30 AM

Just a random guess here, but maybe because you can get a scrawny horse or a tarnished sword a bit cheaper than you can a big, strong horse or a shiny new sword, but you can easily feed the horse or polish the sword until both are perfectly good.

Just kind of shooting from my hip here though
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Maythe on August 23, 2009, 02:50:30 AM

That's the only idea I can come up with too Thjoth, but I'd have thought a horse that was skinny had likely been kept badly and there might be other problems with it. As for the sword that makes more sense but doesn't steel get pitted if left unpolished for any length of time?

[Crimson Horizons]

Re: Edda Discussion - H

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on August 24, 2009, 12:22:20 AM

Pitting wouldn't really impede function, and a horse can be nursed back to health

Anyway, here's the next set of verses:


85
In a breaking bow or a burning flame,
A ravening wolf or a croaking raven,
In a grunting boar, a tree with roots broken,
In billowy seas or a bubbling kettle,


86
In a flying arrow or falling waters,
In ice new formed or the serpent's folds,
In a bride's bed-speech or a broken sword,
In the sport of bears or in sons of kings,


87
In a calf that is sick or a stubborn thrall,
A flattering witch or a foe new slain.
"In a light, clear sky or a laughing throng,
In the bowl of a dog or a harlot's grief!"

88
In a brother's slayer, if you meet him abroad,
In a half-burned house, in a horse full swift
One leg is hurt and the horse is useless
None had ever such faith as to trust in them all.


89
Hope not too surely for early harvest,
Nor trust too soon in your son;
The field needs good weather, the son needs wisdom,
And often is either denied.


90
The love of women fickle of will
Is like starting over ice with a steed unshod,
A two-year-old restive and little tamed,
Or steering a rudderless ship in a storm,
Or, lame, hunting reindeer on slippery rocks.

85-88 - Basically a list of really unreliable things, saying that none have strong enough faith to actually trust these things. I think there's an underlying "Anybody that does is a fool" there, but it's kind of implied

89 - More unreliable things. Basically, don't count your chickens before they hatch. Don't put your trust or faith in things that haven't yet been proven, and that have a long way to go to fruition.

90 - Dealing with women that are fickle is pretty dangerous, and quite stupid on your part as well. I mean, really, it NEVER ends well, guys, so stop trying. Seriously.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Crimson Horizons on August 24, 2009, 06:01:27 PM

Wow, this is an easy set of strophes! Like Thjoth said, all of them list things that shouldn't be trusted. I do find it curious that it says not to trust in kings' sons. I see no reason that one should distrust the son of a king any moreso than any other stranger one would meet.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on August 25, 2009, 12:25:10 AM

Because a king's son would have a bigger head on him than other people. I trust if you've ever been around someone that was used to saying "jump" and having everyone in the room ask "how high?", you know the type.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Maythe on August 25, 2009, 11:20:58 AM

In 90 do you think it means 'don't trust in fickle women', or 'women are fickle, don't trust them'?
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Crimson Horizons on August 25, 2009, 06:16:11 PM

Quote from: Maythe on August 25, 2009, 11:20:58 AM
In 90 do you think it means 'don't trust in fickle women', or 'women are fickle, don't trust them'?

I take it to mean "don't trust in the love of fake women". The translations I see as saying either fickle women or false hearted women whose love not to trust.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on August 26, 2009, 01:49:07 AM

Yeah, that's what it looks like to me as well. It doesn't seem to say all women are fickle, but rather that it's a condition as to whether or not you should trust them.

[Crimson Horizons]

Re: Edda Discussion - H

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Crimson Horizons on September 01, 2009, 04:48:42 PM

I'll take the initiative on behalf of Thjoth (whom I know for a fact is busy with work and school) and post the strophes this week.

Bellows Translation

91
Clear now will I speak, for I know them both,
Men false to women are found;
When fairest we speak, then falsest we think,
Against wisdom we work with deceit.

92
Soft words shall he speak and wealth shall he offer
Who longs for a maiden's love,
And the beauty praise of the maiden bright;
He wins whose wooing is best.

93
Fault for loving let no man find
Ever with any other;
Often the wise are fettered, where fools go free,
By beauty that breeds desire.

94
Fault with another let no man find
For what touches many a man;
Wise men often into witless fools
Are made by mighty love.

95
The head alone knows what dwells near the heart,
A man knows his mind alone;
No sickness is worse to one who is wise
Than to lack the longed joy.


91- Odhin gets a shot in on the men with this strophe. Many a man has lied when seeking to get into bed with a woman he desires.

92- Odhin goes on to give details on how to go about winning women's hearts. Of particular note is how Odhin mentions the giving of wealth from the man to the woman. In the majority of Teutonic culture, the man paid the dower to the woman.

93- Don't mock a man in love (although, I do advise the occasional questioning of his choice in lover).

94- We see more of how highly Odhin prizes love.

95- More still on how Odhin views love. Here Har says that there is nothing worse for wise men than to feel no love. I find it interesting that he points out specifically sage individuals instead of men in general. My take on this is that love was highly prized, but that being a dullard would be a worse fate.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on September 01, 2009, 11:32:03 PM

Thanks Crimson for posting those, "busy" is an understatement for this week

Anyway I'll post my interpretation tomorrow, right now I'm barely staying conscious enough to type
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Maythe on September 02, 2009, 12:34:16 PM

I think we're seeing the softer side of the battle-god here aww

93 and 94 might have relevance for those trying to dispel the anti-gay sentiment one sometimes finds among Heathens.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on September 04, 2009, 07:08:50 AM

Remember, Odin is god of poetry as well as battle. Other than that, I really don't have anything to add onto what Crimson said.

That said, I'll definitely update my threads on time next week...I'll just try to sleep more tomorrow so I have the energy

Who woulda thought that two hours of sleep isn't enough for work, class, practicing with the quarterstaff, doing some construction work, cleaning out 35 years of accumulation from my dad's shop so I can work on my car, and doing stuff around the house? Thats why my energy levels kind of self destructed lately, just by way of explanation

[Crimson Horizons]

Re: Edda Discussion - H

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on September 07, 2009, 01:02:14 AM

OK, I am ON TIME (mostly) this week.


96
This found I myself, when I sat in the reeds,
And long my love awaited;
As my life the maiden wise I loved,
Yet her I never had.

97
Billing's daughter I found on her bed,
In slumber bright as the sun;
Empty appeared an earl's estate
Without that form so fair.

98
"Othin, again at evening come,
If a woman you would win;
Evil it were if others than we
Should know of such a sin."

99
Away I hastened, hoping for joy,
And careless of counsel wise;
Well I believed that soon I should win
Measureless joy with the maid.

100
So came I next when night it was,
The warriors all were awake;
With burning lights and waving brands
I learned my luckess way.


This is basically just a story of how Odin was made into a fool by his love. He met with this maiden, who told him to come back that night so that no one would know what they did. He showed back up, and all the warriors in the hall were awake to chase him away in classic angry mob style, which probably hurts the pride of the Allfather, God of the Slain, and so on even more than it would a normal guy. Something tells me that something REALLY unfortunate happened to all those people later, but I digress
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Maythe on September 07, 2009, 11:27:19 AM

Interesting that the woman he loves is described as wise, not some hot chick with massive paps.... Maybe this tells us something about what the Heathens valued in their women?
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on September 07, 2009, 08:11:08 PM

Hot chicks with massive paps were, of course, appreciated too, I'm sure
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Maythe on September 08, 2009, 11:21:05 AM

Quote from: Thjoth on September 07, 2009, 08:11:08 PM
Hot chicks with massive paps were, of course, appreciated too, I'm sure

Ha! Almost certainly. :P However it's interesting how rarely women's physical characteristics are described - their hair, their clothes and their characters seem to be what makes them beautiful.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on September 09, 2009, 12:24:55 AM

Well, if you think about it, all three of those would indicate a good upbringing or coming from "good stock" at the very least, plus that's the kind of woman you want to have back home while you're...ah...acquiring valuables from your more southern coastal neighbors during the off season. You also have the occasional mention of Shieldmaidens in the historical records, and I have a feeling hot chicks with voluptuous assets wouldn't do so well on a battlefield, at least not without a good deal of wisdom.

Which reminds me, this is hilarious (but very vulgar with the language), a Norse woman named Blenda who defended her village from Danish raiders...
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Maythe on September 09, 2009, 12:22:38 PM

That was hilarious way to go Blenda. I'll have to go look up that Anglo-Saxon badass wench who crossed the channel to beat the crap out of some guy who got betrothed to her but then married someone else.

[Crimson Horizons]

Re: Edda Discussion - H

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on September 14, 2009, 01:19:57 PM

101
At morning then, when once more I came,
And all were sleeping still,
A dog found in the fair one's place,
Bound there upon her bed.

102
Many fair maids, if a man but tries them,
False to a lover are found;
That did I learn when I longed to gain
With wiles the maiden wise;
Foul scorn was my meed from the crafty maid,
And nothing from the woman I won.


* * *

103
Though glad at home, and merry with guests,
A man shall be wary and wise;
The sage and shrewd, wide wisdom seeking,
Must see that his speech be fair;
A fool is he named who nothing can say,
For such is the way of the witless.

104
I found the old giant, now back have I fared,
Small gain from silence I got;
Full many a word, my will to get,
I spoke in Suttung's hall.

105
The mouth of Rati made room for my passage,
And space in the stone he gnawed; Above and below the giants' paths lay,
So rashly I risked my head.


101 - So Odin shows up the next morning and finds a dog tied up in the bed where the woman he wants should be. I *REALLY* get the feeling someone didn't make it out of this one intact...

102 - Maybe Odin's a bit bitter here? Other than that, I've got nothing...

103 - Don't get careless even when everything's happy at home and you're having parties. We're also reiterating the "Speak well and answer well" thing again.

104 - Odin starts telling of his past exploits again, this time of his journey to the center of a mountain to obtain (if I recall) the mead of poetry. He had to be really slick with his speech to get ahold of it, which is why he says "Small gain from silence I got".

105 - Rati is the drill used to tunnel into the mountain...beyond that, pretty self explanatory
[hr]

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Maythe on September 14, 2009, 01:27:44 PM

101 doesn't quite make sense to me given he knew he was betrayed in the last verse.
[hr]

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Crimson Horizons on September 14, 2009, 06:26:14 PM

101- I'm not sure on this one either, but something tells me that it wasn't Odin who found the dog tied to the bed...

102- Odhin gives an example of how love can make a fool of anyone.

103- Thjoth covers this one pretty well. Be on your guard with your words, even at home, or else be thought of as a fool.

104- Indeed, Thjoth is correct, as the mead of poetry/Kvasir's Blood was Odhin's goal.

105- More on how Odhin gets into Gunnlodh's layer.

[Crimson Horizons]

Re: Edda Discussion - H

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on September 21, 2009, 08:48:20 PM


[hr]

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Crimson Horizons on September 25, 2009, 05:09:01 PM

Sorry it took awhile; I've been on vacation.

106- Odhin relates how he won the mead of poetry, and what price he paid.

107- Odhroerir is a one of the vessels used to carry the mead of poetry, and may possibly refer to the mead of poetry itself. I think that this stanza shows what it is that Odhin accomplished by his betrayal.

108- Odhin relates more the kindness of Gunnlodh. I think Odhin is trying to show that what he did, he did for the betterment of his kin, but it was not without price. This is how I understand the Nordic worldview of the time. You did what you had to for your people, but it didn't mean you had to like it.

109- Bolverk is the name Odhin gave Baugi when he persuaded him to bore into Gunnlodh's cave.

110- Odhin shows himself to be an oathbreaker, however, his oath was to utgardh, outsiders. I don't think any of the AEsir would hold this against him (with the possible exception of Tyr), but it does show that it is not always wise to trust Odhin. He makes mention again and again of how Gunnlodh was left in sorrow; I believe that Odhin does feel sorrow for her, and this is his way of apologising.
[hr]

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on September 25, 2009, 11:52:31 PM

I just realized I forgot to comment on the verses I tell you what, it's been one hell of a couple of weeks...

Crimson's explanation is a very good one, and I don't really have anything to add except for on 110. I think that's the definite exception of Tyr and not just the possible one; you have to think, Tyr allowed his hand to be consumed by Fenrir because of a deception (not even a broken oath, it was just a betrayal of trust) and you can't be much more of an outsider than Fenrir. In fact, Fenrir is pretty much an open enemy.

I think in this case (and in most cases, I think, but I'm quite biased), the example of Tyr is probably the wiser one to follow for those of us that aren't Aesir. After all is said and done, all you truly possess in this world is your word, your wisdom, your reputation, and your honor; if you go around tarnishing those, making them suspect, it's not something you can easily recover, if ever. Odin can get away with it, first because he's one of the Aesir (and as such, much more...durable than normal people) and second, because he's doing what is necessary to prepare for a war the likes of which the world has never seen.

Like Crimson said, though, even though he's doing what is necessary, he's not enjoying it at all. These deceptions are causing Odin sorrow for a reason, and if Odin is grieved by it, what do you think you're doing to yourself by being dishonorable? Even if you can deny the damage you're causing yourself, it's still happening. So, in short, don't follow Odin's example here, you're just screwing yourself over, badly.

Sorry to sound preachy there

[Crimson Horizons]

Re: Edda Discussion - H

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on September 29, 2009, 01:05:02 AM

Here's this week's verses. These will need a bit of cross-referencing, and as I just realized that midterms are this week (correction: in 36 hours!!!!!), I'll be commenting later


[hr]

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Maythe on September 29, 2009, 01:13:24 PM

Have we any idea who Hor is?
[hr]

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Crimson Horizons on September 29, 2009, 06:09:27 PM

Quote from: Maythe on September 29, 2009, 01:13:24 PM
Have we any idea who Hor is?

[hr]

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Maythe on September 30, 2009, 11:41:38 AM

Quote from: Crimson Horizons on September 29, 2009, 06:09:27 PM

Thanks

Quote from: Crimson Horizons on September 29, 2009, 06:09:27 PM
115- Don't cheat on your spouse, or with someone else's spouse. Adultery was a major crime (depending upon the time frame and location) for our ancestors, and the repercussions severe.

There seems to be rather a lot of it in the myths though. And there's the bit in Lokasenna where someone (why oh why is my copy of the Eddas not next to the computer?!) defends Freya's behaviour.
[hr]

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Crimson Horizons on September 30, 2009, 06:21:03 PM

I don't remember any counts of Freya sleeping with anyone's spouse. One could argue that she's cheating on Odh (not to be confused with Odhin), but since he has been gone for such a long time, it's safe to assume that he's either dead or otherwise won't be coming back. In that case, I wouldn't necessarily consider sleeping around cheating.

Now, Odhin, on the other hand, has had many relationships outside of his marriage to Frigg, but I don't think Odhin is a shining example of what upstanding citizens did during the time of our ancestors.

Frigg slept with Villi and Ve, but she believed Odhin was dead at the time, so I don't think it counts. Thorr has children from two different mothers, but I am unaware of any timeframe stating which came first, his children Modhi and Magni, or his marriage to Sif (mother of Thrudd).
[hr]

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Maythe on October 03, 2009, 02:42:01 AM

This is the section I was thinking of...

Lokasenna (from the Sacred Texts site):

Freyja spake:
29. "Mad art thou, Loki, | that known thou makest
The wrong and shame thou hast wrought;
The fate of all | does Frigg know well,
Though herself she says it not."

Loki spake:
30. "Be silent, Freyja! | for fully I know thee,
Sinless thou art not thyself;
Of the gods and elves | who are gathered here,
Each one as thy lover has lain."

Freyja spake:
31. "False is thy tongue, | and soon shalt thou find
That it sings thee an evil song;
The gods are wroth, | and the goddesses all,
And in grief shalt thou homeward go."

Loki spake:
32. "Be silent, Freyja! | thou foulest witch,
And steeped full sore in sin;
In the arms of thy brother | the bright gods caught thee
When Freyja her wind set free."

Njorth spake:
33. "Small ill does it work | though a woman may have
A lord or a lover or both;
But a wonder it is | that this womanish god
Comes hither, though babes he has borne."

It's not so much whether Freya has been unfaithful or not which I'm questioning (after all Loki can hardly be the most reliable source on any subject!) but the attitude revealed in Njorth's answer to Loki is interesting.

[Crimson Horizons]

Re: Edda Discussion - H

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on October 06, 2009, 09:01:39 PM




116 - Pretty simple. If you plan to go on a journey, especially any kind of extended one, make sure your provisions for the whole undertaken are well tallied and in order.

117 - Don't give your well wishes or good thoughts to evil people, because they WILL use it against you and it WILL NOT do you any good.

118 - Believe it or not, words can be just as effective of a weapon as any sword (or the modern day equivalent, a gun). I've seen a couple of people just lose the will to live after they were unfairly attacked by someone they trusted, and if someone is in fragile health to begin with, that extra little bit of psychological pressure could be just enough...

119 - Bonds of friendship have to be maintained; if they aren't, they can become harder and harder to keep.

120 - OK, this one is completely different in Chisholm versus Bellows...Bellows makes me want to say that a good friend is a healing charm in and of himself, but Chisholm makes me want to say that you should use Runes for some purpose here and your friend will have healing charms for you for your life....Chisholm is below...

120.
I give you rede Loddfafnir, heed it well!
You will use it, if you learn it,
it will get you good, if you understand it.
Draw a good man to yourself with staves of joy,
and you will have healing songs while you live.

[hr]

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on October 14, 2009, 11:54:03 PM

Sorry it's late, I exist in a different time zone than the rest of the planet so I say I'm on time Will analyze later, right now I can't plust I've got to sleep...


[hr]

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Maythe on October 15, 2009, 11:42:11 AM

Another good batch - all fairly straight forward... or am I missing something? :P

I particularly like 124.

[Crimson Horizons]

Re: Edda Discussion - H

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on October 19, 2009, 02:04:40 AM

Yeah, they're pretty straightforward, and I rather like 124 myself, mostly because I have a friend that doesn't want to hear the truth so I've gotten myself uninvited to his wedding I still have a year to convince him it's a Bad Idea...oh well...

Here's the next bunch, ON FREAKING TIME!




126 - Always do good in your work even if it doesn't seem important, because people glean a lot about you from your work.

127 - If you recognize something as evil, treat it as such. Things and/or people that are harmful should be declared so and met with appropriate action, not ignored and cozied up to just to spare someone's feelings.

128 - If you ignore 127's advice and cozy up to evil things, then you won't be happy. The point is, DON'T BE BAD, boys and girls

129 - I'm not sure what direction this one is going...I've looked at Chisholm and Bray as well as Bellows, and they all seem to be saying don't look up in battle or you'll be enchanted? I mean, obviously, taking your eyes off the men around you to look up is a good way to wind up with a spear in the gut, but I'm not really getting anything else out of that...

130 - This one translates differently in Bray, but basically if you want a woman's affection you should keep your word and be honest.
[hr]

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Crimson Horizons on October 19, 2009, 05:41:22 PM

Pretty much my thoughts. On 129, I seem to recall something about men looking up and seeing the Valkyrie during battle, but my memory has been proven faulty.

[Crimson Horizons]

Re: Edda Discussion - H

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on October 29, 2009, 10:10:13 PM

Super late again, sorry folks...




131 - Basically, don't be stupid or gullible. Don't get drunk with someone else's wife, and don't be inattentive enough to let a thief rob you blind.

132 - NEVER mock a guest. This goes with hospitality again.

133 - You never know what kind of man you're going to meet next, just remember that there are no men so good that they have no bad qualities, and there are also no men that are so evil that they can do absolutely no good at all. So, basically, don't look at the world in black and white, because that'll probably just wind up with you being black and blue xD (You have my permission to shoot me for that pun).

134 - Respect your elders. Most of them have been around the block a couple of times and know your situations better than you think.

135 - Hospitality again. Treat people fairly, don't run them off your property unless you have a reason. Also, deal fairly with the poor.
[hr]

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Maythe on October 30, 2009, 03:27:21 AM

We need some verses which are a little less clear as there's very little to say except 'all true.... again'. :P

I love the imagery used in 134.
[hr]

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Crimson Horizons on October 30, 2009, 04:35:44 PM

Yeah, there's much less to discuss once we hit the "I rede you, Loddfafnir" verses. It's all pretty much self explanatory.
[hr]

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on November 01, 2009, 01:31:33 AM

Aye, and once we hit the last two sections (beginning at Verse 139) they pretty much won't need explanation at all. I might post 10 at a time, then, to bring our Havamal discussion to its conclusion.

The final two sections are named by Bray as Odin's Quest for the Runes and The Song of Spells, the latter being the most interesting to those outside of Heathenry for some reason

[Crimson Horizons]

Re: Edda Discussion - H

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on November 02, 2009, 07:45:45 AM

typing this on my phone in class so no explanation for now.


[hr]

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Maythe on November 02, 2009, 12:22:58 PM

Oh dear... careful what you wish for I guess, but 136... ??? and 137's got me stumped too.
[hr]

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on November 02, 2009, 01:40:14 PM

See, look what you did Maythe

I think this section is starting to build up towards the more magic/esoteric/whatever you want to call it side of Odin's personality.

136 - I think it's saying that the beam barring your door is strongest/heaviest/hardest to move if you intend to admit everyone, and if you do admit everyone to spread your wealth around or else they'll curse you and wish you ill. It could also be referring not only to people, but to wights.

137 - This one is more magic than anything thus far.

If you drink, the power of the earth can overcome it; if you get sick, the power of fire can overcome it; if you're, uh, a little corked up in the digestive tract side of things, the power of oak can cure it (I don't want to think about how the oak is applied in this situation, let's just say you make a tea out of it or something).

By "ear" it means "grain" or (according to Thorpe) an ear of corn, so grain/cereal crops can protect against wizadry/magic/what-have-you; rye can help with feuds; the power of the moon soothes hate.

The next one is alum (a type of salt) for rabies, according to Chisholm (Thorpe calls it "the biter" for "bite-injuries" and Bray says "herb" for "cattle-plagues" so who knows)

And finally, the power of the Runes against (according to the different translations) sword wounds, harm, calamity, and evil.

138 - Oddly doesn't appear in any translation other than this one. Listen to Odin. He's right. You're in good shape if you listen, and if you don't, well...

And HERE begins the Rune Poem, saying how Odin obtained the Runes and how to use them. Pretty self-explanatory from here.

[Crimson Horizons]

Re: Edda Discussion - H

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on November 09, 2009, 03:20:31 AM

BOOM, ON TIME!

[hr]

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Crimson Horizons on November 09, 2009, 06:56:50 PM

Quote from: Thjoth on November 09, 2009, 03:20:31 AM
BOOM, ON TIME!

[me=Crimson Horizons]applauds[/me]
;D

[Crimson Horizons]

Re: Edda Discussion - H

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on November 17, 2009, 06:57:43 AM

BOOM, I failed at on time

I'm going to keep posting them 5 at a time because that'll have us concluding Havamal during Yule (or extremely close to it), which I think is appropriate


146
Better no prayer than too big an offering,
By your getting measure your gift;
Better is none than too big a sacrifice,
. . .
So Thund of old wrote before man's race began,
Where he rose on high when home he came.


* * *


147
The songs I know that king's wives know not,
Nor men that are sons of men;
The first is called help, and help it can bring you
In sorrow and pain and sickness.


148
A second I know, that men shall need
Who leechcraft long to use;


149
A third I know, if great is my need
Of fetters to hold my foe;
Blunt do I make my enemy's blade,
Nor bites his sword or staff.


150
A fourth I know, if men shall fasten
Bonds on my bended legs;
So great is the charm that forth I may go,
The fetters spring from my feet,
Broken the bonds from my hands.

146 - Pretty interesting, basically your offerings should be proportional to the reason you're offering. Also, Thund = Odin.

The rest is pretty plain language.
[hr]

Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Crimson Horizons on November 17, 2009, 07:20:08 PM

I think strophe 146 ties in with strophe 52:

"No great thing needs a man to give,
Often little will purchase praise;
With half a loaf and a half-filled cup
A friend full fast I made."

My analysis of that one can be found here