Re: Edda Discussion - H
Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on August 03, 2009, 06:26:01 PM
Here's the verses for this week before I forget. I have a killer headache right now so I'll write out my interpretations of them later hopefully!
71
The lame rides a horse, the handless is herdsman,
The deaf in battle is bold;
The blind man is better than one that is burned,
No good can come of a corpse.
72
A son is better, though late he be born,
And his father to death have fared;
Memory-stones seldom stand by the road
Save when kinsman honors his kin.
73
Two make a battle, the tongue slays the head;
In each furry coat a fist I look for.
74
He welcomes the night whose fare is enough,
(Short are the yards of a ship,)
Uneasy are autumn nights;
Full often does the weather change in a week,
And more in a month's time.
75
A man knows not, if nothing he knows,
That gold often apes begets;
One man is wealthy and one is poor,
Yet scorn for him none should know.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Crimson Horizons on August 03, 2009, 08:22:28 PM
71- To me, this demonstrates that you are of more use if you are alive rather than the alternative. In a time where a family's very survival could depend on every one of it's members, I strongly agree. If you could still be of use to your family, do so.
72- I'm not certain if this is saying "it's better to have son rather than a daughter" or if it is implying that it's better to have children than not having them. I'm of the latter opinion, and I do believe that is what it says, but I am not certain from a historical or translation standpoint. The rest goes on to point out that only ones family will honour them when they are gone. I tend to agree; who will remember us if our family doesn't?
73- I find it interesting to see how the different translators treat this broken stanza. Bellows and Chisholm translate it as it remains, Bray combines it with stanza 74 as an extra large stanza, and Auden Taylor ignores it completely! I think I will follow the later and not comment on a broken stanza.
74- Be joyfull in a good days work if it provided enough provisions (food/money/etc.). Beyond that, I think this entire passage is devoted to general sea knowledge. Be wary of weather, that sort of thing.
75- Being rich does not necessarily make one a better or more worthy individual. As I have seen many times, the rich can be downright assholes who deserve none of my respect. On the flip-side, I have know many a poor wo/man who deserve more respect than any one person can give.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on August 04, 2009, 12:58:57 AM
DAMMIT Crimson, you took all of my interpretations >.>
Oh well. Basically Crimson said what I was going to, with the exception of the broken stanza. I'd call 74 one of the general warning stanzas that are peppered throughout Havamal, reminding you to keep your eyes open and your head up because who KNOWS what'll happen next. Expect (and thus, keep an eye out for) some level of treachery and you'll never be unpleasantly surprised.
I like to expect the best out of people, but it never hurts to at least be prepared for the worst. Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst, as I always say
EDIT: Oh yeah, I almost forgot to ask...once the Havamal is done with, who would like to just begin going through the Eddas in order, starting with the Poetic and going on to the Prose? A Skaldskaparmal discussion (in the far future) would do everyone some good, I think. If nothing else, Skaldskaparmal will just about kill us all, and what doesn't kill you makes you stronger!
I can organize it and post the passages for the week like I've been doing here, I'd just need to see if people are interested. Was talking with ThorsSon and he's up for it. Speaking of which, he should be along in this thread any day now, I've been pestering him to death about it...
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Crimson Horizons on August 04, 2009, 05:23:36 PM
AHA! Now you know how I feel!
Go ahead and put me down for the further discussions. We've tried before, but now I think we have an active set of people interested this time around.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Maythe on August 05, 2009, 02:27:17 PM
I think 74's latter half is about weather and the seasons in general, as opposed to just the sea. I wonder if 'the yards are short' refers to the fact there's not much space on a ship and one feels cooped up?
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Crimson Horizons on August 05, 2009, 05:25:54 PM
I do believe the "yards are short" is a reference to a ship's sails, although I'm not entirely certain. I'll see what I can dig up.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on August 06, 2009, 10:51:26 PM
"Yards are short" would seem to refer to a broken mast.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Munin-Hugin on August 08, 2009, 07:10:29 AM
As for the broken stanza 73, it doesn't seem to fit in with the ones surrounding it, though the further along we get, the less related the stanzas are becoming.
I see it as stating that when people get together there is always the threat and possibility of violence , and that harsh words have the ability to make men give into emotion and lose their heads. The last line seems to indicate that one should continually expect violence or at the very least be wary of others.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Maythe on August 09, 2009, 06:21:12 AM
Why do you say that? 'Short are the yards of a ship' would seem to be a statement about ships in general rather than a particular incident.
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Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: abdishtar on August 09, 2009, 06:45:40 AM
It seems to me like it plays off verse 66, but that they arrived late for 66 so in verse 67 instead of making them go without a true friend gives them a bite to eat.
Saying a true friend will at least try not to let you miss out, or will help you when in need.
[hr]
Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on August 09, 2009, 10:56:19 AM
That verse seems to talk about the instability of Autumn weather, and the first line "He welcomes the night whose fare is enough" seems to be talking about someone who's had enough trouble during the day.
Then again, it's a bit of a stretch. Just randomly saying that the yards of a ship are short would be rather odd, so it has to be referring to something.
Maybe it's comparing it to the sky and bad weather? Compared to a storm, your ship's masts are especially tiny, so it would be a bad idea to challenge a great storm in your ship.
Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on August 03, 2009, 06:26:01 PM
Here's the verses for this week before I forget. I have a killer headache right now so I'll write out my interpretations of them later hopefully!
71
The lame rides a horse, the handless is herdsman,
The deaf in battle is bold;
The blind man is better than one that is burned,
No good can come of a corpse.
72
A son is better, though late he be born,
And his father to death have fared;
Memory-stones seldom stand by the road
Save when kinsman honors his kin.
73
Two make a battle, the tongue slays the head;
In each furry coat a fist I look for.
74
He welcomes the night whose fare is enough,
(Short are the yards of a ship,)
Uneasy are autumn nights;
Full often does the weather change in a week,
And more in a month's time.
75
A man knows not, if nothing he knows,
That gold often apes begets;
One man is wealthy and one is poor,
Yet scorn for him none should know.
[hr]
Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Crimson Horizons on August 03, 2009, 08:22:28 PM
71- To me, this demonstrates that you are of more use if you are alive rather than the alternative. In a time where a family's very survival could depend on every one of it's members, I strongly agree. If you could still be of use to your family, do so.
72- I'm not certain if this is saying "it's better to have son rather than a daughter" or if it is implying that it's better to have children than not having them. I'm of the latter opinion, and I do believe that is what it says, but I am not certain from a historical or translation standpoint. The rest goes on to point out that only ones family will honour them when they are gone. I tend to agree; who will remember us if our family doesn't?
73- I find it interesting to see how the different translators treat this broken stanza. Bellows and Chisholm translate it as it remains, Bray combines it with stanza 74 as an extra large stanza, and Auden Taylor ignores it completely! I think I will follow the later and not comment on a broken stanza.
74- Be joyfull in a good days work if it provided enough provisions (food/money/etc.). Beyond that, I think this entire passage is devoted to general sea knowledge. Be wary of weather, that sort of thing.
75- Being rich does not necessarily make one a better or more worthy individual. As I have seen many times, the rich can be downright assholes who deserve none of my respect. On the flip-side, I have know many a poor wo/man who deserve more respect than any one person can give.
[hr]
Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on August 04, 2009, 12:58:57 AM
DAMMIT Crimson, you took all of my interpretations >.>
Oh well. Basically Crimson said what I was going to, with the exception of the broken stanza. I'd call 74 one of the general warning stanzas that are peppered throughout Havamal, reminding you to keep your eyes open and your head up because who KNOWS what'll happen next. Expect (and thus, keep an eye out for) some level of treachery and you'll never be unpleasantly surprised.
I like to expect the best out of people, but it never hurts to at least be prepared for the worst. Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst, as I always say
EDIT: Oh yeah, I almost forgot to ask...once the Havamal is done with, who would like to just begin going through the Eddas in order, starting with the Poetic and going on to the Prose? A Skaldskaparmal discussion (in the far future) would do everyone some good, I think. If nothing else, Skaldskaparmal will just about kill us all, and what doesn't kill you makes you stronger!
I can organize it and post the passages for the week like I've been doing here, I'd just need to see if people are interested. Was talking with ThorsSon and he's up for it. Speaking of which, he should be along in this thread any day now, I've been pestering him to death about it...
[hr]
Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Crimson Horizons on August 04, 2009, 05:23:36 PM
Quote from: Thjoth on August 04, 2009, 12:58:57 AM
DAMMIT Crimson, you took all of my interpretations >.>
DAMMIT Crimson, you took all of my interpretations >.>
Go ahead and put me down for the further discussions. We've tried before, but now I think we have an active set of people interested this time around.
[hr]
Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Maythe on August 05, 2009, 02:27:17 PM
I think 74's latter half is about weather and the seasons in general, as opposed to just the sea. I wonder if 'the yards are short' refers to the fact there's not much space on a ship and one feels cooped up?
[hr]
Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Crimson Horizons on August 05, 2009, 05:25:54 PM
Quote from: Maythe on August 05, 2009, 02:27:17 PM
I think 74's latter half is about weather and the seasons in general, as opposed to just the sea. I wonder if 'the yards are short' refers to the fact there's not much space on a ship and one feels cooped up?
I think 74's latter half is about weather and the seasons in general, as opposed to just the sea. I wonder if 'the yards are short' refers to the fact there's not much space on a ship and one feels cooped up?
[hr]
Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on August 06, 2009, 10:51:26 PM
"Yards are short" would seem to refer to a broken mast.
[hr]
Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Munin-Hugin on August 08, 2009, 07:10:29 AM
As for the broken stanza 73, it doesn't seem to fit in with the ones surrounding it, though the further along we get, the less related the stanzas are becoming.
I see it as stating that when people get together there is always the threat and possibility of violence , and that harsh words have the ability to make men give into emotion and lose their heads. The last line seems to indicate that one should continually expect violence or at the very least be wary of others.
[hr]
Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Maythe on August 09, 2009, 06:21:12 AM
Quote from: Thjoth on August 06, 2009, 10:51:26 PM
"Yards are short" would seem to refer to a broken mast.
"Yards are short" would seem to refer to a broken mast.
[hr]
Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: abdishtar on August 09, 2009, 06:45:40 AM
Quote from: Thjoth on July 27, 2009, 10:51:23 PM
66
Too early to many a meeting I came,
And some too late have I sought;
The beer was all drunk, or not yet brewed;
Little the loathed man finds.
"A man must be watchful and wary as well,
And fearful of trusting a friend."
67
To their homes men would bid me hither and yon,
If at meal-time I needed no meat,
Or would hang two hams in my true friend's house,
Where only one I had eaten.
Bray:
66.
At many a feast I was far too late,
and much too soon at some;
drunk was the ale or yet unserved:
never hits he the joint who is hated.
67.
Here and there to a home I had haply been asked
had I needed no meat at my meals,
or were two hams left hanging in the house of that friend
where I had partaken of one.
Chisholm:
66.
Far too early I arrived at many steads,
But too late at others,
The ale was already drunk or yet unbrewed.
The loathed find little among the folk.
67.
Here and there they had me in their homes,
if I was not hungry for meat
or hung two hams for the true friend
for the one I had eaten.
Anderson:
66.
Much too early
I came to many places,
But too late to others;
The beer was drunk,
Or not ready:
The disliked seldom hits the moment.
67.
Here and there I should
Have been invited
If I a meal had needed;
Or two hams had hung
At that true friend's
Where of one I had eaten.
66
Too early to many a meeting I came,
And some too late have I sought;
The beer was all drunk, or not yet brewed;
Little the loathed man finds.
"A man must be watchful and wary as well,
And fearful of trusting a friend."
67
To their homes men would bid me hither and yon,
If at meal-time I needed no meat,
Or would hang two hams in my true friend's house,
Where only one I had eaten.
Bray:
66.
At many a feast I was far too late,
and much too soon at some;
drunk was the ale or yet unserved:
never hits he the joint who is hated.
67.
Here and there to a home I had haply been asked
had I needed no meat at my meals,
or were two hams left hanging in the house of that friend
where I had partaken of one.
Chisholm:
66.
Far too early I arrived at many steads,
But too late at others,
The ale was already drunk or yet unbrewed.
The loathed find little among the folk.
67.
Here and there they had me in their homes,
if I was not hungry for meat
or hung two hams for the true friend
for the one I had eaten.
Anderson:
66.
Much too early
I came to many places,
But too late to others;
The beer was drunk,
Or not ready:
The disliked seldom hits the moment.
67.
Here and there I should
Have been invited
If I a meal had needed;
Or two hams had hung
At that true friend's
Where of one I had eaten.
Saying a true friend will at least try not to let you miss out, or will help you when in need.
[hr]
Title: Re: Havamal Discussion
Post by: Thjoth on August 09, 2009, 10:56:19 AM
Quote from: Maythe on August 09, 2009, 06:21:12 AM
Why do you say that? 'Short are the yards of a ship' would seem to be a statement about ships in general rather than a particular incident.
Why do you say that? 'Short are the yards of a ship' would seem to be a statement about ships in general rather than a particular incident.
Then again, it's a bit of a stretch. Just randomly saying that the yards of a ship are short would be rather odd, so it has to be referring to something.
Maybe it's comparing it to the sky and bad weather? Compared to a storm, your ship's masts are especially tiny, so it would be a bad idea to challenge a great storm in your ship.
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