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    The truth about deities


    #2
    Re: The truth about deities

    Our gods might be what you call Jinn, or your Jinn may be some of our gods. However that is irrelevant on multiple levels. Most of the people here are not Muslims and our faith does not have the same rules yours would. I appreciate that you care enough to try to enlighten us, total strangers, about what you believe to be the true facts of the universe. It speaks to your compassion that you appear to have written out your post with an effort to not offend us. I however will not be referring to my deities as Jinn anytime soon because I do not believe they are the same entities. I will cede the point that I cannot be sure of the nature of my deities, however I could say the same of you. That is why it is called faith, because not everything can be known.

    Jinn are beings of smokeless fire who, like humans, have free will to choose good or evil. Claiming that all good Jinn leave humans alone always is at best a sweeping generalization. Any beings gifted with long life and free will are likely to do something wrong sometime. Humans can't go their life without sinning so why would immortal creatures fair any better?

    In Christianity and Judaism angels are more similar to Islamic Jinn than Islamic angels in that they also have free will which is where the idea of a "fallen angel" comes from in these faiths. Angels who turn away from God fall from grace and become demons. As I understand Islamic angels lack free will and so life in total obedience to Allah. In all monotheistic faiths angels are very important, in Christianity and Judaism some angels like Gabriel are considered especially close to god and practically revered in their own right. My point being that in these faiths angels are similar to Jinn and these angels interfere in human lives, on behalf of god, in order to help people live righteously. It may not be an Islamic idea but couldn't Jinn serve God in the same capacity?

    Regardless though, we worship our gods because we believe them to be gods and not Jinn. We have a different belief system. Many of us worship the Supreme Creator but in a different way from you. Some people see our gods as different faces of the creator, because the creator is so vast that humans cannot understand it. Their worship may include the creator but add in other beings related to it. Many people like to think that different religions worship the same beings but by different names. Most of us who worship gods acknowledge a creator figure.

    I see some points in your argument but working from a strictly Islamic perspective you will not convince us because we do not believe as you do. In my opinion there are creatures which lie ans masquerade as gods but that does not mean that gods do not exist to me. Rituals are found in every religion also. Our circle casting and spells are often seen as a kind of prayer, no different except in their procedure from those found in other faiths. Some baptize, some bow their heads, some do dances or sing hymns, we light candles and say spells and these are all rituals. And why do them? People do them because they want things from God or the gods, either in this life or the next. It's only a difference in perspective I think.

    I am trying to be sensitive to where you are coming from and I believe that you have our best intentions at heart. However, this is probably a pointless gesture. There is another Muslim member on our forums. I'm hoping he'll see this and want to write a reply. I do not have an Islamic background so my ability to argue with you is limited and I must resort to hypothetical or examples from other religions. In short I may want to say that many faiths are more similar than they appear and also that I do not believe my gods to be evil. If I thought they were evil then why would I worship them?
    Circe

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      #3
      Re: The truth about deities


      Yes, it does make sense if I were a Muslim.
      A lot of what you said can be claimed about your god as well.


      So. There's that.

      Oh and welcome!::
      Satan is my spirit animal

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        #4
        Re: The truth about deities

        Oh hi, and welcome to the forums.

        Let me at least start by stating that I really do appreciate you sharing your beliefs with us. I had certainly not studied the concept of the Jinn in such depth, and do appreciate you passing along this knowledge on Islamic theology, as I find it useful and interesting to know more about other religious and spiritual beliefs.

        While I do see some elements I can generally agree with you on, I cannot agree with many of your points. I cannot properly debate you on a theological standpoint, since I cannot say that I have a commanding knowledge of Islam to say the least, but my beliefs do not work together with your statements.

        I understand and respect that these are your sincere beliefs, but the belief that my Gods are not Jinn is also a part of my sincere beliefs, and I believe the beliefs of many people on the forums.

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          #5
          Re: The truth about deities

          Welcome to the forum, Questfirtruth!
          This is an interesting thesis, but like Medusa said, it makes sense to someone Muslim. I don't deny the Jinns' existence, but I have a question, then.
          If our gods are the Jinn, actually. Who created the world then? The other universes, plants, earth, air, animals?
          "Fair means that everybody gets what they need. And the only way to get that is to make it happen yourself."



          Since I adore cats, I might write something strange or unusual in my comment.Cats are awesome!!! ^_^

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            #6
            Re: The truth about deities

            Are you for real? You can't just walk in here and tell us what our gods are and aren't. This is a diverse forum filled with people of all different beliefs (including Muslims). Your truth isn't my truth.


            Mostly art.

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              #7
              Re: The truth about deities

              Sure, it makes sense for someone following a particular world view. And no, I see no more "truth" (a very ambiguous word to begin with) than in any other religious belief.
              Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                #8
                Re: The truth about deities

                Hmmmmmm,ponders the idea of just telling every other belief system that they are all WRONG. Well no,that would be insensitive and besides "Wrong is such a "provocative" word" and besides you might get all mad or something...
                MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                sigpic

                my new page here,let me know what you think.


                nothing but the shadow of what was

                witchvox
                http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

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                  #9
                  Re: The truth about deities

                  Originally posted by Gleb View Post
                  Welcome to the forum, Questfirtruth!
                  This is an interesting thesis, but like Medusa said, it makes sense to someone Muslim. I don't deny the Jinns' existence, but I have a question, then.
                  If our gods are the Jinn, actually. Who created the world then? The other universes, plants, earth, air, animals?
                  From a Muslim viewpoint that would be Allah who is the supreme creator. He's arguing that we worship Jinn who are pretending to be gods and that we do not worship the supreme god who created the world. The Jinn lie to us and trick us in order to make us worship them rather than Allah.
                  Circe

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                    #10
                    Re: The truth about deities

                    Originally posted by Corvus View Post
                    From a Muslim viewpoint that would be Allah who is the supreme creator. He's arguing that we worship Jinn who are pretending to be gods and that we do not worship the supreme god who created the world. The Jinn lie to us and trick us in order to make us worship them rather than Allah.
                    Oh... Now it looks a lot more clear. Thanks, Corvus.

                    - - - Updated - - -

                    After reading again, I second Corvus. He has said everything already, and I have nothing to add.
                    "Fair means that everybody gets what they need. And the only way to get that is to make it happen yourself."



                    Since I adore cats, I might write something strange or unusual in my comment.Cats are awesome!!! ^_^

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                      #11
                      Re: The truth about deities

                      Satan is one of my Gods, because only by rebelling to our creators is that we can surpass them.

                      I just wrote that without thinking, honestly. But it sounds kinda badass.

                      What you're saying is that I follow an evil being who rules and commands legions of other evil beings? That's pretty badass. I'm in.

                      Check out my blog! The Daily Satanist

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                        #12
                        Re: The truth about deities

                        Originally posted by Corvus View Post
                        Jinn are beings of smokeless fire who, like humans, have free will to choose good or evil. Claiming that all good Jinn leave humans alone always is at best a sweeping generalization. Any beings gifted with long life and free will are likely to do something wrong sometime. Humans can't go their life without sinning so why would immortal creatures fair any better?
                        First of all the Jinn are not immortal, some of them have very long lifespans but they all eventually die, the reason many people believe them to be immortal is due to the fact that the Jinn's lifespans are so long that they have most likely seen many generations before them and will continue to see many generations after. Many of the Gods worshipped during ancient times are still alive and some are not.

                        In the world of the Jinn things aren't as straight forward as ours. The reason I'm speaking about Jinn and giving you their characteristics is so that after I give you their descriptions you can draw comparisons between the deities you worship and the Jinn, if there seems to be some correlation between the two then it might give you a better insight as to who the deities are.

                        Now in regards to their world, what makes a good Jinn and what makes a bad Jinn? A good Jinn is a Jinn who follows the commandment of God, yes they have slightly different characters to eachother some are more merciful than others some are more vengeful than others some are angrier than others etc. But when it comes down to what makes a good or bad Jinn there are some basic principles. Now if you mention free will and that in the same way good people make mistakes good Jinn make mistakes too. You are right. But there are varying degrees of mistakes. For example, if a person were to get angry and shout at a stranger in the street then this is a mistake, but if a person were to kill someone this mistake is much greater. In the world of the Jinn they have been ordered to leave us alone and for them to meddle with human beings in rituals this is absolutely outlawed in their world and is one of the worst crimes.

                        Yes, you could argue that even a good human being might commit a murder, but if a person is on a murder spree with no boundaries and absolutely no remorse then there is a fundamental issue.

                        In Christianity and Judaism angels are more similar to Islamic Jinn than Islamic angels in that they also have free will which is where the idea of a "fallen angel" comes from in these faiths. Angels who turn away from God fall from grace and become demons. As I understand Islamic angels lack free will and so life in total obedience to Allah. In all monotheistic faiths angels are very important, in Christianity and Judaism some angels like Gabriel are considered especially close to god and practically revered in their own right.
                        Yes within Islam Angels do not have freedom of choice, anyone who has an encounter with an Angel is because God has told that specific Angel to go and have an encounter with that specific person. The difference in power between an Angel like Gabriel and a Jinn such as Iblis (Lucifer, Satan) cannot be described, they are not on the same level at all.

                        My point being that in these faiths angels are similar to Jinn and these angels interfere in human lives, on behalf of god, in order to help people live righteously. It may not be an Islamic idea but couldn't Jinn serve God in the same capacity?
                        This is the fundamental misunderstanding about the Jinn. Yes the Jinn can do many things we can't do but these abilities are not to be seen as supernatural abilities. They live for longer in the same way jelly fish live longer than mice, they are (in general) stronger and faster in the same way a cheetah is stronger and faster than a squirrel.

                        At the same time the Jinn are not to be seen as superior beings to humans. There are things that we have that they don't. For example the Jinn don't have a physical form, as I mentioned previously some of them can take the physical form of a human or various animals (crows, dogs, snakes, black cats) but this is an extremely rare occurrence. The only way for most of them to ever experience the physical world is through us and this is what's known as possession. Also Humans have potential that far outweigh that of any Jinn. A descendant of Adam who's spiritually and mentally advanced would not dare be approached by any Jinn including Iblis (whatever you believe his characteristics are).

                        Human beings have a great potential and can advance further than even Angels can. But that's for another day.

                        Regardless though, we worship our gods because we believe them to be gods and not Jinn. We have a different belief system. Many of us worship the Supreme Creator but in a different way from you. Some people see our gods as different faces of the creator, because the creator is so vast that humans cannot understand it. Their worship may include the creator but add in other beings related to it. Many people like to think that different religions worship the same beings but by different names. Most of us who worship gods acknowledge a creator figure.
                        I agree with you. Most of those who worship these deities acknowledge a creator figure. And some of those who do worship these deities also believe them to be the Jinn. There are also those who believe they are worshipping the Jinn and this is mainly prevalent around the middle east where many of these ancient Gods originated from.

                        The reason I'm posting here is to tell you about the characteristics of the Jinn, you can then draw relationships between the deities you believe in and the Jinn. Me and you have never had the pleasure of meeting each other so I don't know about what it is you worship. But if you find that there are some similarities between the deities you worship and the description I'm giving of the Jinn. Then it should at the very least make you think.

                        This is just an assumption but I'm assuming most of you on these forums have done nothing more than draw circles and light candles. Whether you believe you're worshipping a deity or a Jinn. Lighting candles and drawing circles is that exact method used to call the Jinn. I doubt very many of you have done what I'm about to describe but these next things I will list are at the extreme end of calling the Jinn.

                        1. Going into a state of impurity before calling the Jinn, this is usually done by masturbation.
                        2. Invocating a Jinn by calling it's name three times.
                        3. Something needs to be offered to the Jinn they do not work for free, usually its a sacrifice.
                        4. Blood sacrifices, sacrifices of chickens, goats, cows etc.
                        5. At the extreme end sacrifices of human beings would be used.
                        6. The most severe rituals in calling the Jinn would involve sacrificing a human child.
                        7. Tying knots (I'm not going to explain this but if this is something that you've engaged in then you've worked with the Jinn)

                        The types of things you can call a Jinn for can appear to be good and can also be evil, but getting yourself in a situation with the Jinn is very very costly and in the end you will find it extremely difficult.

                        1. Jinn can bring you wealth
                        2. Jinn can bring you power
                        3. Jinn can bring people to admire and revere you
                        4. Jinn can even make other people fall in love with you

                        And on the other end

                        1. The Jinn can be used to break up familys e.g. getting a husband and wife to divorce.
                        2. The Jinn can be used to cause an individual to fail at certain things in life be it studies or work.
                        3. The Jinn can be used to stop an individual from doing something the invocator does not want them doing.
                        4. The Jinn can be used to inflict diseases (If after any of these rituals you or any one with you has gone into some sort of epileptic attack then that's the Jinn)
                        5. The Jinn can even be used to kill people.

                        I do not doubt any of you in the sense that I don't believe you are deluded or are making things up when you say you've seen or experienced things. When you say your rituals bring you certain things in your life yes I don't doubt it and I'm sure most of you only call upon these deities to do good, But there is the big problem of deception when it comes to the world of the Jinn.

                        - - - Updated - - -

                        Originally posted by SeanRave View Post
                        Satan is one of my Gods, because only by rebelling to our creators is that we can surpass them.
                        Using that logic, rebelling against Satan means you surpass him therefore worship God haha

                        - - - Updated - - -

                        Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                        Yes, it does make sense if I were a Muslim.
                        A lot of what you said can be claimed about your god as well.


                        So. There's that.

                        Oh and welcome!::
                        Asking the creator doesn't involve the same rituals used to conjure up or call on the Jinn.

                        I'm not here to offend, I realise most of you have never been exposed to what Islam teaches. So I believe this could be a good platform for us to learn from one another.

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                          #13
                          Re: The truth about deities

                          Originally posted by Questfortruth View Post
                          1. Going into a state of impurity before calling the Jinn, this is usually done by masturbation.
                          2. Invocating a Jinn by calling it's name three times.
                          3. Something needs to be offered to the Jinn they do not work for free, usually its a sacrifice.
                          4. Blood sacrifices, sacrifices of chickens, goats, cows etc.
                          5. At the extreme end sacrifices of human beings would be used.
                          6. The most severe rituals in calling the Jinn would involve sacrificing a human child.
                          7. Tying knots (I'm not going to explain this but if this is something that you've engaged in then you've worked with the Jinn)
                          1. Done. I just did a few minutes ago. TMI? Sorry. In my opinion, there are few things as purifying as an orgasm.
                          2. Bloody Mary. Bloody Mary. Bloody Mary?
                          3. I sacrifice a twinkie for bloody mary.
                          4. Strawberry twinkies have a filling that resembles blood. Close enough.
                          5. I'm a twinkies rights activits, they have rights, like humans! Right to be yummy, specially.
                          6. I've heard about mini-twinkies...
                          7. I don't know how to tie knots, that's why I don't wear ties, and only wear slip-on vans.


                          Originally posted by Questfortruth View Post
                          Using that logic, rebelling against Satan means you surpass him therefore worship God haha
                          DING! Wrooong! Because I do not worship Satan, he did not create me. I see him as a sort of guide. He might recommend a course of action, but I can say "f**k it, I'm doing it my way" and he would be "oh well, allrighty then". You can't rebel against someone who doesn't control you. And yes, Satanism is about becoming a God, in some way. Not becoming one with God, no, no, that's silly. Also, I

                          Check out my blog! The Daily Satanist

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                            #14
                            Re: The truth about deities

                            Those 7 things you mentioned about contacting the Jinn, work for the Jinn. As concerning other paths - it works a lot more differently. Jinn isn't a god as far as I understand. So it can't be compared with the deities we worship.
                            "Fair means that everybody gets what they need. And the only way to get that is to make it happen yourself."



                            Since I adore cats, I might write something strange or unusual in my comment.Cats are awesome!!! ^_^

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: The truth about deities

                              Point one,you are telling us your beliefs,and then it seems insisting that only yourself understand the nature of deities,guided by a book with no more credence than the bible,or another book written by humans.

                              Second, You tell us ALL the deities we decide to follow are liars and demons or Jinn as you say. BUT,all we have is your belief on these matters,and you quote from a book that has nothing to do with our beliefs.

                              This forum is a mixed bag of beliefs,and I believe proselytizing(the attempt to convert someone) might be considered a sin in Islam because people have been jailed for doing that in Muslim country's.

                              Interesting that you do not find it wrong to try and convert anothers belief,but it is a bad thing if others try this on you....
                              MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                              all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                              NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                              don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                              sigpic

                              my new page here,let me know what you think.


                              nothing but the shadow of what was

                              witchvox
                              http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

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