Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 47

Thread: Sexual assault victims=privileged?

  1. #1
    Nihilistic Goddess Medusa's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    10,292
    Religion
    LaVeyan Satanist
    Phrase
    A Clockwork orange

    Sexual assault victims=privileged?

    Oh boy. This is going to be a touchy subject. Why? Because I like to rile up the peeps and drive you nuts! Anyways. I was reading this article on Salon.com.
    George Will, the Washington Post columnist believes *and let me quote this*

    Being a victim of sexual assault is a “coveted status that confers privileges”
    And here's some more juicy juice for you to swallow:
    Washington Post columnist George Will doesn’t believe the statistic that one in five women is sexually assaulted while in college. Instead he believes that liberals, feminists and other nefarious forces have conspired to turn being a rape survivor into a “coveted status that confers privileges.” As a result of this plot, “victims proliferate,” Will wrote in a weekend editorial that ran in the Washington Post and New York Post.

    Further compounding the crisis of people coming forward about sexual assault to stay de rigueur is the fact that “capacious” definitions of sexual assault include forcible sexual penetration and nonconsensual sexual touching. Which is really very outrageous, according to Will. It is really very hard to understand why having your breasts or other parts of your body touched against your will should be frowned upon.

    crazy sauce here


    Now. What's the debate? We all know sexual assault is bad. We get it. We abhor it.

    But!

    Let's pretend this is a thread with absolutely no holds bar honesty going on in it. Let's pretend this little box of thread we get to tell the way we perceive things is our truth for a moment. Now some vital questions I want to ask:

    ~Do you feel there is an underlying feeling of 'privilege' from sexual assault victims? Not proof. Not facts. I'm asking for that gut level feeling you know 'may' be wrong, but you feel you might think is an inkling going on under the surface. Or not.

    ~Does being a victim of sexual assault allow you to be more easily offended? Or do you see this in others who are claiming sexual assault?

    ~While we are talking about assault: Is looking and making ick remarks to a person count for sexual assault?

    ~Is making an impaired decision to engage in sex and later regretting it because you were drunk while the other person was not as drunk mean it was sexual assault? (I ask this specifically because all those I was drunk and he/she took advantage of me because I was drunk is probably more accurately stated as: We were both drunk and I might have been drunker and we made impaired decisions. One where I mind but he/she doesn't seem to mind) Because let's be honest here. Most of those I was drunk stories, the other person was NOT completely sober either. It's more likely both were drunk and that person just was a tad less drunk then you.

    And hey, if this thread touches a deep painful note in your history. Back off. Go read another thread. Then come back. Not everyone will understand your back story. Not everyone will care. I would just like to know what people are 'really' feeling about this and not just a wall of text of facts. Let's real talk!




    *crosses fingers.
    Satan is my spirit animal

  2. #2
    PF Ordo Hereticus MaskedOne's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    8,216
    Religion
    Jedi
    Location
    elsewhere
    Phrase
    The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force.

    Re: Sexual assault victims=privileged?

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    Let's pretend this is a thread with absolutely no holds bar honesty going on in it. Let's pretend this little box of thread we get to tell the way we perceive things is our truth for a moment. Now some vital questions I want to ask:
    I strongly encourage that everyone also pretend that they are diplomats charged with presenting their opinions honestly and tactfully. After all, I'm pretending to aim

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	aberdeen.jpg 
Views:	156 
Size:	15.9 KB 
ID:	3163

    at all of you.

    Anyway on to the questions and apologies in advance Medusa but I'm just gonna assign numbers to them instead of quote them all.

    1) No. However, I know a psych student once who mentioned people occasionally looked at those with physical handicaps and thought they were privileged. If a person can envy someone who will never walk then it's not surprising to me that people may look at victims of sexual assault where the harm is far less obvious and believe them privileged.

    2) I've seen people claiming sexual assault who were easy to offend and people claiming sexual assault who were not easy to offend and all told, I can find records of both on this site in public areas if I ever work up the motivation. People react to trauma in different ways. Since people react to everything in different ways, this is pretty normal.

    3) Off the cuff, comments can (depending heavily on context, I refuse to make an absolute statement here) be classed as sexual harassment. Sexual assault requires accompanying deeds. Both are wrong but the two are not identical and should not be handled in an identical manner.

    4) It's context dependent and a legal and moral cluster-f***. Sorry, I don't think there can be a hard fast rule here morally and while hard and fast legal restrictions can be imposed, no matter how careful the phrasing, there will probably come a time when enforcing those regulations absolutely would result in either letting go someone that you think should be punished or punishing someone that you think should be let free.
    "It is not simply enough to know the light…a Jedi must feel the tension between the two sides of the Force…in himself and in the universe."
    ―Thon

    "When to the Force you truly give yourself, all you do expresses the truth of who you are,"

    Yoda

    Yoda told stories, and ate, and cried, and laughed: and the Padawans saw that life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis



  3. #3
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    11,256
    Religion
    relational theophysis and bioregional witchery
    Location
    coastal Georgia
    Phrase
    *a little bad taste is like a nice dash of paprika*

    Re: Sexual assault victims=privileged?

    So...I'm going to preface this by saaying that 1) I'm on m.y fone @ the ER with goober #2... also that 2) I was raped by a date at 15 and 3) I volunteered as a sexual assault victim advocate for almost three years in the military

    I'm gonna go thru these in order but i can't cut and paste on my phone (bear in mind I should have been in bed over 2 hours ago and I've been up since 4 am...cut me some slack on grammar spelling & making sense).

    I think it depends on what one means by privelege. Does it confer a certain status or "Authenticity" of experience? In some groups, sadly, yes it seems to. Generally speaking though, no. there is still too much shame and stigma attached to sex and sexual assault, too much victim blaming, for most people to waltz around anouncing they are rape victims. I'm mostly okay with it because it happened nearly 2 deczades ago, and I've been in counseling for it, and I've gone through training in how to talk about it.

    I think this depends on a few things...1) how recently the assault occured, 2) how traumatized the individual was by the event, and 3)how easily offended the person is in general anyhow. Rape and abuse scenes in movies and books, for example, don't bother me (when there is no proper context? They might *annoy* me, but they aren't a trigger or anything (and yeah, I'm one of the people that think trigger warnings are pandering)). To some extent, I think its natural to have reactions to things, at least for a time, but I also don't think it is society's responsibility to make sure the world is bubblewrapped.

    And no, I don't consider inappropriate commentary to be assault...harassment, certainly, but assault takes touching.

    Regretting drunk sex is not a valid complaint for sexual assault, IMO...its a failure to take responsibility for one's actions. BUT one must also be wary here of minimizing the problem of predatory behavior by men AND women in hunting a person and feeding them enough booze that they are physically unable to consent. I knew a girl that did this in my time in the military--specifically, she targeted married guys, got them so drunk they barely knew their name and fucked them...if she'd been a guy, there would have been complaints, but as a girl, the stigma for guys to come forward was too much.
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

  4. #4
    One with the Force ChainLightning's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    5,070
    Pronouns
    male
    Religion
    Polytheist with Pan-/Panen- tendencies.
    Location
    Elk River, MN
    Phrase
    In the darkest recesses of your twisted mind, a G-rated version of me resides.

    Re: Sexual assault victims=privileged?

    On behalf of the entire staff, I'd like to apologize for the inconvenience, having this thread closed prematurely and with no explanation. Truth be told, we were trying to figure out the who and why of its closure. It was, indeed, inadvertent. So, I'm reopening it.

    Again, sorry everyone!




    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

    "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius

    "The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice." - Mark Twain

    "The only gossip I'm interested in is things from the Weekly World News - 'Woman's bra bursts, 11 injured'. That kind of thing." - Johnny Depp



  5. #5
    lady sings the blues DanieMarie's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    5,675
    Pronouns
    female
    Religion
    Solitary Pagan
    Location
    Germany

    Re: Sexual assault victims=privileged?

    1) No. I think there's still a lot of stigma there. in most cases victims still get blamed and most women still do not come forward, at least not publicly. To me, that doesn't indicate privilege.

    2) I agree with Masked here. Some people will get more offended and some will not. That's just the nature of traumatic experiences.

    I do tend to agree with Thal that trigger warnings are a bit pandering. Sometimes it seems like a knee-jerk reaction on behalf of the online feminist community. It doesn't overly bother me though. I've seen someone react quite negatively to something very tame (it was just a scene in a movie that involved masturbation...it didn't even involve consent because there was no one else involved), so I guess there are people who have very strong triggers. I think at some point we have to draw a line and understand that almost anything can be traumatic for -someone-, but I think for now this is just a reaction to the growing awareness of rape and the different ways people feel about it.

    3) No, it's not assault. It's harassment. It should not be treated the same way as assault, but it should be strongly discouraged. I think this one is up to us...we need to make in unacceptable. You can't really ban sexual harassment in a non-workplace context without getting into some slippery slope territory as far as free speech is concerned, so you can't really punish people for it unless those words are clearly meant to incite violence.

    4) I'm with Thal here. There comes a point when we need to accept responsibility for our actions. I think it's important to keep spreading the idea that it's not a good idea to have sex with someone who is more drunk than you, but I don't think it can really be rape. Many of us, male and female, make very questionable decisions while we are drunk, but they're still decisions. I think the focus here needs to be on a) not getting so drunk that you do things you regret, b) being on a buddy system so that you don't drive drunk, have sex with people we wouldn't normally have sex with, start fights, etc (basically, look out for each other...it's something my friends and I have always done for each other, male or female), and c) learning how to walk away from drunk people. I'm already seeing this a lot here. There is an ad campaign at the moment about making bad decisions when your'e drunk targeted at young people of all kinds.

  6. #6
    Reads a lot Amadi's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    206
    Pronouns
    male
    Religion
    Polytheist
    Location
    England
    Phrase
    Heyoooooooo!

    Re: Sexual assault victims=privileged?

    All my points of view on the questions asked are expressed perfectly via Danie^, but if I may express a different view: I hate how sexual assault has been stereotyped more towards a particular gender (whether rightfully or not) and while it's not exactly classed as a privilege, depending on the gender of said victim they will be treated differently, be it in a more concerned way or with a more negative conduct..
    Work hard Play hard.
    What is history?

  7. #7
    Loud Mouth Heka's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    3,918
    Religion
    Northern Tradition Neo-Paganism
    Location
    South Australia
    Phrase
    I drink, and I know things
    Quote Originally Posted by ChainLightning View Post
    On behalf of the entire staff, I'd like to apologize for the inconvenience, having this thread closed prematurely and with no explanation. Truth be told, we were trying to figure out the who and why of its closure. It was, indeed, inadvertent. So, I'm reopening it.

    Again, sorry everyone!
    Thanks Chain, now my bit:

    *Im not going to touch on the Privilege bit atm, I may later, but that staff meeting fried my brain.

    What I am going to mention is that I once got so drunk I let a man stay in my room, and he had sex with me. I say that because it was completely passive, I dont actually remember, I think I was more or less passed out.

    For a long time I just blamed myself for being stupid and that I should've taken reaponsibility for my actions etc. I felt guilty, and weak. Recently ive come to the decision that I was indeed raped. The men I was drinking with continuously poured alcohol down my throat, and this guy held my hair away from my face while I puked, then had sex with me. I hadnt thought about it much till recently, when I was contacted by him on fb. I didnt know his name, I didnt know who he was, but I worked it out and I wish I never had. He was sleazy and asked questions I didnt want to hear from him, about open marriages and such. It disgusted me. I never want to hear from him again, I dont want to think about it. I dont like talking about it.

    My point in this is that it took a long time for me to admit that this had happened to me, that I was a statistic, 1 of the 5. And it was hard.

    And it still is. I probably didnt need to tell the whole story, but ive never done it before and felt that now was the right time.

    But I would hazard, based on my own experience, that it could be more than 1 in 5. There was a hell of a lot of drunk sex going on where I lived. People are too scared to admit that rape happened to them.
    ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

    RIP

    I have never been across the way
    Seen the desert and the birds
    You cut your hair short
    Like a shush to an insult
    The world had been yelling
    Since the day you were born
    Revolting with anger
    While it smiled like it was cute
    That everything was shit.

    - J. Wylder

  8. #8
    Lord Roknrol's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    1,008
    Pronouns
    He/Him
    Religion
    Atheist
    Location
    Portland, OR

    Re: Sexual assault victims=privileged?

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    Let's pretend this is a thread with absolutely no holds bar honesty going on in it. Let's pretend this little box of thread we get to tell the way we perceive things is our truth for a moment. Now some vital questions I want to ask:

    ~Do you feel there is an underlying feeling of 'privilege' from sexual assault victims? Not proof. Not facts. I'm asking for that gut level feeling you know 'may' be wrong, but you feel you might think is an inkling going on under the surface. Or not.
    No, however I do think that 1) A lot of people claim sexual abuse because they're unwilling to admit that they made mistakes and 2) a lot of people that use that as an excuse every time they don't like the topic of conversation.

    Before any of you gets too uptight, I myself have been sexually assaulted, although not to the extend of some others here.

    No, their criminal involvement was not their fault. Nor was it mine or any random man's fault. It was the criminals fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    ~Does being a victim of sexual assault allow you to be more easily offended?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    Or do you see this in others who are claiming sexual assault?
    Erm...yes? Yes, yes yes. I have been told that I'm not allowed to voice an opinion on abortion because I haven't been raped. I also think that there's...well...there should be a 3rd option that isn't rape and isn't not-rape.

    Now, before I get started, consent is consent is consent...if you haven't got it, you're wrong. However, I do think that there's a big difference from "rape" and "I got so drunk that I didn't know what happened." Why? Well, because I've known plenty of women that were more than happy to "get it on" while they were still in the bar and changed their minds on their way home....and I've known others that have passed out before they changed their mind. Or mostly passed out. Or weren't even capable of forming a cogent sentence, much less resisting. Yes, it is still non-consensual sex and it's still wrong. But there is a big damned difference between, "Yeah, she was hanging all over me for the last 5 hours, sexual innuendos, grabbing my junk, then we went home and she changed her mind" (of course, what I'm specifically referring to is the "changing of the mind" without the "mentioning of this fact" - ie, due to just being too wasted to say something) and the actual full-on assault with a deadly weapon sort of thing.

    Are both wrong? Yes. Should both be treated the same? I don't think so. And I think that those "fuzzy" lines have given a lot of women the impression that they were raped when, in fact, they just changed their mind (sometimes after the fact).

    My mother claims she was raped by my father. That story changes depending on how she feels about discussing him at the time - sometimes it was multiple times, sometimes she just loved him so much that she agreed to sex without really "agreeing"...so sometimes it's rape, and sometimes it's consensual...all depending on her frame of mind.

    I have ALSO seen the "I've been raped" crowd act like complete and utter whores when they're out in public with their friends, despite their earlier brush(s) with the horrors and realities of dealing with drunk people, which sometimes shows me that their "offense" is quite selective indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    ~While we are talking about assault: Is looking and making ick remarks to a person count for sexual assault?
    I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean, but no, I don't think so. If you don't want to be seen, wear a Burka (if you dress like a whore, expect to be looked at). I think that comments (regardless of who says them or where they are) can be considered harrassment, but in order for something to be "assault" something has to touch you other than my words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    ~Is making an impaired decision to engage in sex and later regretting it because you were drunk while the other person was not as drunk mean it was sexual assault? (I ask this specifically because all those I was drunk and he/she took advantage of me because I was drunk is probably more accurately stated as: We were both drunk and I might have been drunker and we made impaired decisions. One where I mind but he/she doesn't seem to mind) Because let's be honest here. Most of those I was drunk stories, the other person was NOT completely sober either. It's more likely both were drunk and that person just was a tad less drunk then you.
    No, I don't think so. I think that when you decide to become impaired you have accepted the risk that you may do things you wouldn't otherwise do. Of course, roofies and equivalent change the nature of the question.

    Yes, I've regretted banging some pretty insane chicks. No, that doesn't mean I was raped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    And hey, if this thread touches a deep painful note in your history. Back off. Go read another thread. Then come back. Not everyone will understand your back story. Not everyone will care. I would just like to know what people are 'really' feeling about this and not just a wall of text of facts. Let's real talk!
    I hope this thread stays open...
    Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. That's Relativity.
    - Albert Einstein

    “It is not necessary to accept the choices handed down to you by life as you know it.” - Hunter S. Thompson

  9. #9
    lady sings the blues DanieMarie's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    5,675
    Pronouns
    female
    Religion
    Solitary Pagan
    Location
    Germany

    Re: Sexual assault victims=privileged?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadi View Post
    All my points of view on the questions asked are expressed perfectly via Danie^, but if I may express a different view: I hate how sexual assault has been stereotyped more towards a particular gender (whether rightfully or not) and while it's not exactly classed as a privilege, depending on the gender of said victim they will be treated differently, be it in a more concerned way or with a more negative conduct..
    Agreed. Sexual assault on men is rarely taken seriously and is also strongly underreported. On one hand, women aren't taken all that seriously and are often blamed when they get raped, but men are also not taken seriously and get treated like they should be happy that they got laid. Things need to change in both cases.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Heka View Post
    Thanks Chain, now my bit:

    *Im not going to touch on the Privilege bit atm, I may later, but that staff meeting fried my brain.

    What I am going to mention is that I once got so drunk I let a man stay in my room, and he had sex with me. I say that because it was completely passive, I dont actually remember, I think I was more or less passed out.

    For a long time I just blamed myself for being stupid and that I should've taken reaponsibility for my actions etc. I felt guilty, and weak. Recently ive come to the decision that I was indeed raped. The men I was drinking with continuously poured alcohol down my throat, and this guy held my hair away from my face while I puked, then had sex with me. I hadnt thought about it much till recently, when I was contacted by him on fb. I didnt know his name, I didnt know who he was, but I worked it out and I wish I never had. He was sleazy and asked questions I didnt want to hear from him, about open marriages and such. It disgusted me. I never want to hear from him again, I dont want to think about it. I dont like talking about it.

    My point in this is that it took a long time for me to admit that this had happened to me, that I was a statistic, 1 of the 5. And it was hard.

    And it still is. I probably didnt need to tell the whole story, but ive never done it before and felt that now was the right time.

    But I would hazard, based on my own experience, that it could be more than 1 in 5. There was a hell of a lot of drunk sex going on where I lived. People are too scared to admit that rape happened to them.
    That's really rough. I want to make it really clear that when I mentioned "taking responsibility for actions" that I didn't mean situations like this, but rather consenting to sex while drunk that someone may not normally do sober. If someone is passed out or so out of it that they can't give a straight answer, that can't be considered consent. I'm really sorry that happened to you

  10. #10
    Lord Roknrol's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    1,008
    Pronouns
    He/Him
    Religion
    Atheist
    Location
    Portland, OR

    Re: Sexual assault victims=privileged?

    Quote Originally Posted by DanieMarie View Post
    Agreed. Sexual assault on men is rarely taken seriously and is also strongly underreported. On one hand, women aren't taken all that seriously and are often blamed when they get raped, but men are also not taken seriously and get treated like they should be happy that they got laid. Things need to change in both cases.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That's really rough. I want to make it really clear that when I mentioned "taking responsibility for actions" that I didn't mean situations like this, but rather consenting to sex while drunk that someone may not normally do sober. If someone is passed out or so out of it that they can't give a straight answer, that can't be considered consent. I'm really sorry that happened to you
    Agreed....
    Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. That's Relativity.
    - Albert Einstein

    “It is not necessary to accept the choices handed down to you by life as you know it.” - Hunter S. Thompson

Similar Threads

  1. Sympathy for victims in Chattanooga
    By B. de Corbin in forum Prayer & Energy Sharing
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 17 Jul 2015, 03:41
  2. California judge says victims' body can prevent rape
    By B. de Corbin in forum Catacombs
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 22 Dec 2012, 12:17
  3. Gods and sexual experiences?
    By Sarkana night in forum Catacombs
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 28 Nov 2012, 09:28
  4. help on sexual orientation
    By wind in forum Catacombs
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 08 Sep 2012, 09:42
  5. Sexual Assault for Ratings?
    By FantasyWitch in forum Catacombs
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 05 May 2011, 08:27

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •