The value of Ethics

[Annwn]

For some time now I have been going through some tough counselling, and I say it is tough because it has made me question who I am, what I stand for and my regard for my self worth, and it is the last one I seem to be struggling with the most.

I am a great believer that if you say you follow a said faith, that you should do your best to uphold its ethics, other wise surely you are doing nothing more than being a hypocrite to that faith. This is where up on till now I feel I have fallen short, I have got to a point where the new ways of thinking I have been trying to put in to motion, still feel so alien to me I am not sure they belong to me. I guess that must sound pretty silly, but it is the best way I can explain it.

First you need to know a little bit about where I have come from, when I was a kid my Grandfather decided he was going to take liberties with me that he had no right to take. This went on for a number of years, and needless to say by the end of it not only had I lost my faith in Christianity, I also had a burning hate rid for my Grandfather, and fantasied about killing him in the most painful way, just so he might know what it was like to feel it. For many years I have felt that I was a despicable person for wanting him dead, I was brought up to respect and value life, and I felt ashamed that I wished another person to die.

Even when I had been through my first set of counselling (yes there have been many) and I was told that I had only felt that way because my Grandfather had pushed me to the limits of what I could physically and mentally take, it seemed like a week justification, as I still believed that descent people do not wish others dead. Even though I could understand the reasoning of the above because I could not feel it in the core of my being, I could not except it.

Although I had not followed any faith for years, it was something I felt that was missing in my life so I started to look around at different religions to see if I could find something that felt right. I looked in to Wicca then Green Witchcraft, but had trouble with getting my head around the three fold law. I was still going to counselling, and I was worried that maybe my inability to forgive or grieve for my Grandfather after he died naturally was working against me. I was so angry and frustrated with myself for finally seeing how I was played, that I think it was starting to consume me.

A few years ago I stumbled upon Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism (CRP), and I felt I actually might have found a set of ethics that I could finally feel happy with. It is set on a virtue theoretic ethical system and goes something like this :- hospitality, truth, generosity, taking care of others, wisdom, knowledge, eloquence, mercy, justice, and the duty of the strong to support the weak rather than prey upon them. Another example given was the Nine Noble Virtues of Asatru :- Truth, Honour, Justice, Loyalty, Courage, Community, Hospitality, Strength and Gentleness. I think either are a good set of ethics to try and live by (although I tend to lean towards the Nine Noble Virtues). I think they are achievable things for me live by, although no doubt I will fall short of them at times, I am human after all.

Here is where I would appreciate some honest opinions from you, because I do not know any fellow CRP's to ask. Even when I was first looking around for a new faith I have always felt that it is the Celtic deity's who protected me as a child, and showed me the way to find the inner strength to finally stand up to my Grandfather, and tell him I would report him to Childline if he did not stop what he was doing to me, and that they WOULD believe me, and then we would see who the one in trouble was. I have no doubt in my mind that it is Artio and Cernunnos who are the closest Celtic deity's to me, although being CRP I respect and honour all Celtic deity's.

My thinking and feelings are now along the following lines:- My Grandfather neglected his responsibility to look after me when he abused me, therefore I feel that I am justified in not being able to forgive him for what he did. Even though I felt some pretty horrific things towards him, I knew it was wrong to act on them so I never did. There fore I am not a despicable person, just someone who was pushed to the limit of what they could physically and mentally take at that time in my life. I am glad to say I no longer feel the anger and frustration that I felt for so long, I would not go as far to say I no longer hate him, but it no longer seems important weather I do or not any more. The only one I hurt by betting myself up about these things is me, and I am pretty sure that I no longer have to. Because for the first time in a very very long time I think I am finally coming to terms with who I am, and I do not think that I am not being a hypocrite to the ethics I have chosen to live by.

For the first time in years I actually believe what I think and what I feel are the same thing, but I have not felt that way in so long I am not sure weather I truly trust it, because I do believe that there are values in ethics. so I would be grateful for some feed back if I could please.

[Sean R. R.]

Re: The value of Ethics

The particularity of most religions is that they have their own set of ethic rules. Some Left-Hand Path religions have more self-centered or self-created ethics approach, based on the individual's experience. In Satanism, LaVeyan as well as most forms of Theistic Satanism, it is considered that the individual is capable of discerning wrong from right on it's own, without need for a set of rules. Satanism is individualistic (as opposed to legalistic, which means that the individual has to follow a defined set of rules), so he makes his own ethics and morals, based on his experience as well as what can be convenient to him. It is a religion of the individual, of the I-Am-God mentality.

Trust it as long as it feels right and it's coherent with your beliefs. I see no reason to distrust yourself if nothing tells you it's wrong.

[thalassa]

Re: The value of Ethics

There's a lot that I could talk about here...but I'm still morning pre-coffee foggy headed, so I'm going to keep it as simple as possible for all of our sakes.

I think that we have somehow gotten the idea that forgiveness=absolution. I think that is a mistake. Forgiveness, IMO, is about you moving on from their actions and the hold their actions have over you.

There is nothing wrong with hate. There is nothing wrong with anger. There is nothing wrong with feeling betrayed. There is nothing wrong with feelings and emotions. The "wrong" comes when we let our feelings dictate our actions (as opposed to informing them)...whether those actions are for good or ill. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is worse than doing the wrong thing for the right reasons, even if the former results in external approval and the latter in external condemnation.

Standards, values, ethics, ideals, morals, etc...everyone should have them. But no one should beat themselves up when they don't live up to them. Nothing is perfect in this world--in this universe. Life is built upon imperfection--its where genetic diversity comes from. Culture is build upon imperfection--we wouldn't need values if we were already perfect.

We are all human--we have evolved beautiful flawed bodies (seriously, the knee? worse body part ever...and the appendix...the ear, its like a Rube Goldberg set up in there) in a beautifully flawed world. Never denigrate yourself for being less than perfect. Be who you are, flaws and all, and be proud of them. That doesn't mean you should eschew improvement, but don't be ashamed of your feelings. Feel them, and then let them go. Forgiveness isn't about your grandfather, it is about you.

Forgive your self for how you feel. Ethics are about actions. Emotions are something more primal than that. Don't try to intellectualize a justification for your feelings, just accept them. You are not the first person to feel this way...accept it and let it stop defining you.

(and yes, I realize it is much easier said than done...but a good start is by saying it, out loud, to yourself...)

[Denarius]

Re: The value of Ethics

We do what we feel is right, and then use ethics and ideologies as post-hoc justifications. In other words, we follow value systems only in as much as they conform to our values. In yet other words, you believe that say stealing is wrong because you were raised that way or someone stole from you and you hated that. Not because you came to the logical conclusion that theft is unethical.

Ideologies are entirely incidental to behaviour. All of our complex behaviours are merely the logical extension and culmination of previous simple behaviours. Which is why past behaviour is always the best indicator of future behaviour, not religion or race or politics or even self-report.

Which is why a Christian might aspire toward loving his neighbor or turning the other cheek, and not so much toward burning entire cities because one person was a non-believer or stoning various people for various transgressions. Those values are not reinforced by our modern society.

You do what you are wired to do, as in the combination of genetics/neurology and conditioned responses/learned behaviours, and then think of reasons to explain to yourself why you just did that.

[Rhaethe]

Re: The value of Ethics

There's a lot that I could talk about here...but I'm still morning pre-coffee foggy headed, so I'm going to keep it as simple as possible for all of our sakes.

I think that we have somehow gotten the idea that forgiveness=absolution. I think that is a mistake. Forgiveness, IMO, is about you moving on from their actions and the hold their actions have over you.

There is nothing wrong with hate. There is nothing wrong with anger. There is nothing wrong with feeling betrayed. There is nothing wrong with feelings and emotions. The "wrong" comes when we let our feelings dictate our actions (as opposed to informing them)...whether those actions are for good or ill. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is worse than doing the wrong thing for the right reasons, even if the former results in external approval and the latter in external condemnation.

Standards, values, ethics, ideals, morals, etc...everyone should have them. But no one should beat themselves up when they don't live up to them. Nothing is perfect in this world--in this universe. Life is built upon imperfection--its where genetic diversity comes from. Culture is build upon imperfection--we wouldn't need values if we were already perfect.

We are all human--we have evolved beautiful flawed bodies (seriously, the knee? worse body part ever...and the appendix...the ear, its like a Rube Goldberg set up in there) in a beautifully flawed world. Never denigrate yourself for being less than perfect. Be who you are, flaws and all, and be proud of them. That doesn't mean you should eschew improvement, but don't be ashamed of your feelings. Feel them, and then let them go. Forgiveness isn't about your grandfather, it is about you.

Forgive your self for how you feel. Ethics are about actions. Emotions are something more primal than that. Don't try to intellectualize a justification for your feelings, just accept them. You are not the first person to feel this way...accept it and let it stop defining you.

(and yes, I realize it is much easier said than done...but a good start is by saying it, out loud, to yourself...)

There is so much in this post ... and I am not eloquent enough to express.

Thank you for posting.

[Annwn]

Re: The value of Ethics

Thank you all very much for replying to my post, There are many words of wisdom that I will take away with me. I still have a lot of sorting out and growing to do, along with trying new ways of doing old things that still feel awkward to me can be a little unnerving at times. However each is a learning experience and is of value and I am grateful for your help. I found it very interesting to see others point of view on the matter and in some ways that has helped me to put things in to a better perspective.

Ethics and self worth were something I put together at a very young age, and it never really occurred to me to separate them so thank you for pointing that one out to me thalassa what you wrote made perfect sense to me.