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    #16
    Re: Deliverance!

    A uniform definition of possession and stats based on it would be really cool to see.
    life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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      #17
      Re: Deliverance!

      Sorry people, I've just witnessed something so disturbing I'm going to have to decompress for a bit. I was going to post today but the subject matter is too deep for me right now.

      I'll come back and post some actual information soon.

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        #18
        Re: Deliverance!

        Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
        Well I did qualify it with 'it seems', at least. That counts, right?

        On a serious note, I would honestly be interested in seeing actual statistics about supposed possessions. I say 'supposed' because 'possession' means different things to different religions. I grew up Catholic, and their version of 'possession' is quite different to what I've heard about some of the Protestant faiths. Personally, I think it could be argued that they aren't actually talking about the same phenomenon. I find it interesting that most readily available stories on possession show a trend towards a particular demographic, which of course could simply be media bias.
        And then you have to wonder whether to count... willing possessions? Practitioner invites the entity in for information/communication. Or being possessed by the Holy Spirit which some Christian faiths believe in.
        We are what we are. Nothing more, nothing less. There is good and evil among every kind of people. It's the evil among us who rule now. -Anne Bishop, Daughter of the Blood

        I wondered if he could ever understand that it was a blessing, not a sin, to be graced with more than one love.
        It could be complicated; of course it could be complicated. And it opened one up to the possibility of more pain and loss.
        Still, it was a blessing I would never relinquish. Love, genuine love, was always a cause for joy.
        -Jacqueline Carey, Naamah's Curse

        Service to your fellows is the root of peace.

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          #19
          Re: Deliverance!

          How do you differentiate mental illness from possession?
          Satan is my spirit animal

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            #20
            Re: Deliverance!

            Originally posted by Medusa View Post
            How do you differentiate mental illness from possession?
            Its a spiritual thing, we don't need empirical evidence

            Seriously though. Idk
            We are what we are. Nothing more, nothing less. There is good and evil among every kind of people. It's the evil among us who rule now. -Anne Bishop, Daughter of the Blood

            I wondered if he could ever understand that it was a blessing, not a sin, to be graced with more than one love.
            It could be complicated; of course it could be complicated. And it opened one up to the possibility of more pain and loss.
            Still, it was a blessing I would never relinquish. Love, genuine love, was always a cause for joy.
            -Jacqueline Carey, Naamah's Curse

            Service to your fellows is the root of peace.

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by Medusa View Post
              How do you differentiate mental illness from possession?
              Ooo wish I could give rep for this!
              ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

              RIP

              I have never been across the way
              Seen the desert and the birds
              You cut your hair short
              Like a shush to an insult
              The world had been yelling
              Since the day you were born
              Revolting with anger
              While it smiled like it was cute
              That everything was shit.

              - J. Wylder

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                #22
                Re: Deliverance!

                I ask because of my mother. She was a very deeply religious Catholic. And mentally ill. And after reading about Vatican exorcists, it seems a lot of time one is mistaken for the other. Often with dire consequences.
                Satan is my spirit animal

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                  #23
                  Re: Deliverance!

                  Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                  How do you differentiate mental illness from possession?
                  In regards to the Vatican and Church-sanctioned Catholic exorcists, the guidelines for establishing a genuine case of demonic possession and differentiating such from mental illness were all but entirely overhauled due to the amount of controversy and injury behind exorcisms. Today, very few priests are sanctioned by the Church to carry out exorcisms (they must successfully undergo rigorous training) - and they are required to consult with psychiatrists and medical professionals as well as have these professionals examine potential victims of possession before they are allowed to intervene spiritually.

                  Some of the criteria considered by the Vatican to be demonstrative of "legitimate demonic possession" are speaking in a foreign tongue previously unknown to the victim and feats of superhuman strength.

                  The fact that the Vatican has acknowledged and taken steps to address the fact that not all proposed cases of "demonic possession" are literal and now involve medical professionals in their official evaluations of alleged victims is actually admirable, IMHO. More than can be said for the vast majority of Protestant ministries carrying out exorcisms.

                  I recall the horror stories of my Aunt who, as a drug-addict and mentally disturbed woman in her youth, had her "demons" exorcised by pastors of her Pentecostal Church which left her physically, spiritually and emotionally damaged because they were convinced that she was possessed.

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                    #24
                    Re: Deliverance!

                    Part of the problem with exorcists (of all denominations) is that they believe they are beating, burning, torturing the demon and not the person. Quite how otherwise normal people convince themselves that this is okay I don't know.

                    Up until relatively recently, psychiatrists didn't really pay much attention to possession as an explanation for mental illness.
                    There has been a bit of sea change amongst some in the past ten years or so and I have tried (very hard) to upload a pdf file supporting this in the interests of sharing. Unfortunately the file is a bit big (not enormous big, just too big to upload here).

                    If anyone would like to see a copy (it's by Stafford Betty) please just pm me with your email address and I'll send it over.
                    www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                    Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                      #25
                      Re: Deliverance!

                      While listening to the audiobook on the Vatican exorcists, something fascinating came to light. Most priests, even those who are sanctioned exorcists by the Vatican don't actually believe in possession. They truly believe there to be some social, medical or mental problem. But the Vatican can't actually deny the subject of demon possession for one simple reason. It's in the bible. And they can't go against what's in the bible even though they don't believe it to be true.

                      And thus the hypocrisy continues. They pretty much hush hush the exorcising priests who are actually quite skeptical.
                      Satan is my spirit animal

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                        #26
                        Re: Deliverance!

                        Originally posted by Torey View Post

                        Some of the criteria considered by the Vatican to be demonstrative of "legitimate demonic possession" are speaking in a foreign tongue previously unknown to the victim and feats of superhuman strength.
                        I wonder what the Vatican thinks of the Pentecostal movement that encourage all of their believers to speak in tongues!

                        Originally posted by Torey View Post
                        The fact that the Vatican has acknowledged and taken steps to address the fact that not all proposed cases of "demonic possession" are literal and now involve medical professionals in their official evaluations of alleged victims is actually admirable, IMHO. More than can be said for the vast majority of Protestant ministries carrying out exorcisms.

                        I recall the horror stories of my Aunt who, as a drug-addict and mentally disturbed woman in her youth, had her "demons" exorcised by pastors of her Pentecostal Church which left her physically, spiritually and emotionally damaged because they were convinced that she was possessed.
                        I am really happy to hear that at least one denomination has put a framework in place to cope with that aspect of Christian practise. Sometimes I'm so embarrassed for the Pentecostal movement, and other times I'm so so so mad at the irresponsibility and recklessness they can display. I'm really sorry that your Aunt was mistreated like that

                        - - - Updated - - -

                        So... why would a demon want to inhabit a person? What benefit can a human body provide to a super intelligent spiritual being?

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                          #27
                          Re: Deliverance!

                          Originally posted by Azvanna View Post
                          I wonder what the Vatican thinks of the Pentecostal movement that encourage all of their believers to speak in tongues!
                          Well, by "foreign tongues", the Vatican only regards recognised translatable tongues (languages) as valid - i.e., if a person who was illiterate suddenly speaks in fluent French where formerly they had no knowledge of it.

                          Originally posted by Azvanna View Post
                          I am really happy to hear that at least one denomination has put a framework in place to cope with that aspect of Christian practise. Sometimes I'm so embarrassed for the Pentecostal movement, and other times I'm so so so mad at the irresponsibility and recklessness they can display. I'm really sorry that your Aunt was mistreated like that
                          Thank you. I don't generally have any disdain for the Pentecostal movement in general, but the actions of some anger me. Many members of my family were and still are Pentecostal and are genuinely decent, kind human beings.

                          Originally posted by Azvanna View Post
                          So... why would a demon want to inhabit a person? What benefit can a human body provide to a super intelligent spiritual being?
                          Well, being mindful that my perspective is that of a Demonolator - I will only comment from that perspective.

                          Firstly, IMHO a true Demon will not likely ever possess a human being. It's the equivalent of a Pagan deity such a Thor or Isis randomly deciding to "possess" Jane Doe down the block. It just doesn't happen.

                          A malevolent entity on the other hand, yes. Unfortunately, most Christians only use the word "Demon" to apply to your garden-variety malevolent entity - something that is in error in my beliefs.

                          But - as to why a malevolent entity would want to possess a human being - there are many reasons. Sometimes, there is no "reason" - we can't presume to understand the motivations of a non-human being, so an educated guess is the only "explanation" we can generally ever hope to arrive at.

                          Two primary reasons - or educated guesses:

                          1. Attainment of a physical body with which to interact with the material world or with human beings.

                          Many malevolent entities desire to experience a corporeal existence - whether they were formerly living human beings themselves who have now found their spiritual awareness trapped within the Unseen realms or whether they are inherently non-corporeal. Some may have specific tasks they wish to complete which can only be done via a flesh-and-blood vessel, others may simply be out for a "joy ride". Some entities develop obsessions with people or places and can use physical bodies to further interact with the objects of their desires.

                          2. Manipulation of human beings.

                          Some entities may only choose to transiently inhabit a body as a means to an end. Sometimes an entity may take possession of a physical life form in order to manipulate others around it by impersonating a person with clout or power or a family member in order to exert control over others.

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                            #28
                            Re: Deliverance!

                            Originally posted by Torey View Post
                            Well, by "foreign tongues", the Vatican only regards recognised translatable tongues (languages) as valid - i.e., if a person who was illiterate suddenly speaks in fluent French where formerly they had no knowledge of it.
                            Which is interesting, because this is how tongues originally manifested as recorded in Acts rather than the 'prayer language' that Pentecostals use.



                            Originally posted by Torey View Post
                            Many members of my family were and still are Pentecostal and are genuinely decent, kind human beings.
                            and I bet they pray for you every day! To be so loved. Having gone to Pentecostal churches since 15, I think the only people that really cause problems are the visiting ministers. I think they tend to be braver because they don't have to clean up the mess! >.<





                            Originally posted by Torey View Post
                            Firstly, IMHO a true Demon will not likely ever possess a human being. It's the equivalent of a Pagan deity such a Thor or Isis randomly deciding to "possess" Jane Doe down the block. It just doesn't happen.

                            A malevolent entity on the other hand, yes. Unfortunately, most Christians only use the word "Demon" to apply to your garden-variety malevolent entity - something that is in error in my beliefs..
                            And that's exactly why I asked the question. Because of the way people on this forum who interact with demons describe them, I just figured something was getting lost in translation.

                            Thanks for explaining your guesses! The educated guess you made about a spirit becoming obsessed with a certain place/object rings true. It reminds me of the story of the man possessed with Legion hanging out at the cemetery. I think manipulation is plausible but again I'm just wondering what a spirit has to gain by manipulating people.. maybe it comes back to 'for the fun of it' but I have a hard time understanding why changing things in the natural makes any positive difference in the spiritual... This coming from someone who claims to believe that the natural is a manifest, living artwork of the divine. :/ I suppose I am so used to spending time trying to push into the supernatural from the natural, that I didn't consider that the supernatural might want to push into the natural at times, too.

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                              #29
                              Re: Deliverance!

                              Double post I know, but what would make a person susceptible to being possessed? What gives permission for the malevolent entity to enter?

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                                #30
                                Re: Deliverance!

                                Originally posted by Azvanna View Post
                                Double post I know, but what would make a person susceptible to being possessed? What gives permission for the malevolent entity to enter?
                                Torey will probably reply when he gets home, but generally emotional or mental instability is a big one. Anything that weakens your energy body's integrity can make you a target for opportunistic spirits. Addiction, mental illness, physical illness (especially chronic illness that wears you down), emotional turmoil etc etc. Fear and paranoia are also big ones.

                                Some people inadvertently invite opportunistic spirits (I say that rather than 'malevolent' because not all leeches are overtly malevolent... some are just parasites) by 'opening themselves up to communication with spirits' and things like that without adequate protections. Some people piss spirits off. Some people walk around in the astral equivalent of full suits of armor and handcuffed briefcases and so attract attention to themselves unnecessarily.

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