Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

[Quetzal]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

science is such a practical fact based tool, an extremely useful one.

So for instance, in a thunder storm you can't look up and see Thor beating his anvil, 10 million satellites couldn't find Thor beating his anvil, an army of rogue aliens couldn't find Thor beating his anvil

But science isn't limited when it comes to lightning. We know exactly what causes lightning and it makes a lot more sense than a cosmic viking doing a bit of smithin'.
I was under the impression that people who use science and religion in tandem used religion to explain the bits science can't, rather than ignoring science's explanation altogether and substituting their own. Sure, some things science doesn't know, and others science may never know. In those cases, turning to religion at least makes sense to me, even though it's not something I personally do. But something as mundane as lightning? I don't get it.

Even without the scientific explanation, if I looked up at the sky during a storm and see nothing but clouds and lightning, my mind doesn't go, "well, must be Thor/Zeus/Quetzalcoatl/Susano'o/etc." I'd think "Though a thunder god is a possible explanation, it seems the least likely out of all these other explanations I can think of." I don't look at nothing and think a god is probably there, I look at nothing and think a god probably isn't there. I suppose that's where the faith part comes in. There we go, answered my own questions in that last line xD

[Doc_Holliday]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

Arguing faith ideology with science ideology will get nobody anywhere. They are different systems, faith is a word literally meaning believing, while science is more about proving or disproving. I don't really give a damn if science knows the source, I know the source in my belief system. Science also says you can't turn water into wine, or walk on water but billions of people believe that happened. Religions generally are against scientific logic.

By the way, lightning is far from 'mundane' to a lot of pagan religions. So just careful dismissing it like that, it's a god power more often than not. I'd like to re-iterate that I said I think things like Thor are above sciences understanding, thus why science came up with its best explanation. But they won't find what I believe to be true. Thats where my faith comes in.

[Quetzal]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

Thats where my faith comes in.

Heh, I had JUST edited my previous post to say that and lo and behold, so did you xD

Yeah, the thing I'm finding odd is that you can agree with science on some things (usually the things that religion never gave an answer for, I'd wager) but ignore it on other subjects just because it clashes with your faith.

Oh, and please don't be offended by the mundane comment. To a non-believer everything is mundane, as beautiful and amazing as everything is.

[Doc_Holliday]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

Oh, and please don't be offended by the mundane comment. To a non-believer everything is mundane, as beautiful and amazing as everything is.

Fair enough, I wasn't offended just as much as trying to tell you that to the pagan camp, lightning is generally the farthest thing from mundane.

Anyways, I believe in certain myths, and certain ones I don't. Where science is pretty definite, I can step back. Like I know the earth is not made from a giants corpse, because its just not. I believe personally in the big bang theory as the beginning to the earth. My faith comes in the part where I believe the two giant ass rocks that made the big bang, were guided by something divine.

(I also didn't know you were a non believer by the way, your yin-yang display picture 'something or other' religion made me think you were maybe leaning towards asian tradition. I wasn't sure.)

[Quetzal]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

Fair enough, I wasn't offended just as much as trying to tell you that to the pagan camp, lightning is generally the farthest thing from mundane.

No worries man, I know, I'm fond of mythology and folk tales. Lightning gods tend to be some of my favourites, hence the affinity for quetzals, and Quetzalcoatl in my sig. Sitting in the middle of a thunder storm is about as close to spiritual as it's possible for me to feel.

Anyways, I believe in certain myths, and certain ones I don't. Where science is pretty definite, I can step back. Like I know the earth is not made from a giants corpse, because its just not. I believe personally in the big bang theory as the beginning to the earth. My faith comes in the part where I believe the two giant ass rocks that made the big bang, were guided by something divine.

Yeah, this is what I mean though. The scientific explanation for lightning is just as concrete as the earth's composition, so why believe in Thor and his anvil for lightning, but not the body of Ymir for earth? It seems kinda arbitrary.

(I also didn't know you were a non believer by the way, your yin-yang display picture 'something or other' religion made me think you were maybe leaning towards asian tradition. I wasn't sure.)

My taijitu isn't taoist, it's dudeist, hence the three dots on each side rather than one. I'm just a Big Lebowski fan, though dudeism kinda fits my worldview. Abide.
As for the religion part, I just don't have a label for it. After all, atheist just means lack of faith in god/s, it doesn't technically cover everything. I like to keep an open mind, just not quite so open that my brain falls out.

[Riothamus12]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

I do not believe the mundane and Divine to be the same, but I see the architecture of that Divinity everywhere. I see it in scientific principles. The exchange between the elemental forces permeates the reactions between the elements of the periodic table. I see five forms of matter in them. I see the cosmic dance in phases of existence. The very forces of sorcery are driven by interactions between different energies as are mundane changes. Ptah, Athena, Minerva, and so many others reign over such pursuits! Truly the pursuit of such knowledge pleases the Holiest of Holies! Is it not the movements of the Father Sun which stirred life as well as those motions of the Mother Sea, the Mother Moon, and Father Sky that science has shown to have played an integral role in the formation of life here on earth. Energy is neither created or destroyed only converted. Is this not cardinal rule of occult practice? Two games can be played on the same field and yet not abide by the exact same rules. Indeed is the same science those who deny the existence of the Divine that has confirmed it's existence! It is beyond science but is close to it in some ways. It is beyond this realm but it's power permeates all things! I have seen so many prayers answered. Who am I to deny this data or it's logical conclusion? Aye, the occultist is to religion what a quantum physicist is to mundane science.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

For me, science is experimentation and reality testing. Explanations for phenomenon are always tentative, until new data comes in - either through my own research (primary and/or secondary), or the research of others (in which case, the research protocols need to be examined -when possible).

There does not seem to be much point in "believing" something for which there is no evidence (how can a thing be real if it leaves no traces?) or which is contrary to the evidence (which would require bizarre mental acrobatics and/or self delusion).

"Spiritual" things can be tested. The meditation techniques of the Tibetan Buddhists, for example, have been developed through a very long process of experimentation and testing for repeatability - which is why they work so well.

Why can't science and spirituality work together?

Why would anybody be afraid to test their beliefs?

[Quetzal]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

For me, science is experimentation and reality testing. Explanations for phenomenon are always tentative, until new data comes in - either through my own research (primary and/or secondary), or the research of others (in which case, the research protocols need to be examined -when possible).

There does not seem to be much point in "believing" something for which there is no evidence (how can a thing be real if it leaves no traces?) or which is contrary to the evidence (which would require bizarre mental acrobatics and/or self delusion).

"Spiritual" things can be tested. The meditation techniques of the Tibetan Buddhists, for example, have been developed through a very long process of experimentation and testing for repeatability - which is why they work so well.

Why can't science and spirituality work together?

Why would anybody be afraid to test their beliefs?

Now this makes sense to me, it sounds like science. Keeping what works, putting aside what doesn't, replacing old stuff as new shit comes to light that makes more sense. That's what science is, and it can be what religion is as well as long as people don't just straight up deny provable facts.

[Ophidia]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

Why would anybody be afraid to test their beliefs?

For the kids in the Science Club, challenging their belief that science is and always will be infallible can end up with them going native - a state that other scientists tend to look down on. Once a scientist goes native, it labels all their prior work and experience as a sham, and paints them as an unreliable source of future science.

For the religious to go native, it usually means they've lost their religion, or their religion loses its importance in the face of new evidence.

When I stopped caring that there were people out there who claimed that 'Christian Wicca' was a valid Pagan path, it made me challeng how much I actually cared about my religion, period. Truth be told, I care less and less about actively engaging in my religion. I'm content to just let it float along. Sometimes there are moments of awe and wonder, but most days just fully understanding that everything is sacred is enough. My religion has become much like my understanding of technological items - I don't have to know how it works to be able to use it.

[Bjorn]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

This is why I identify as an agnostic.

If you walked into my house you'd notice an altar covered in feathers and bones and books about all manner of paganism, decked with Tarot cards, and draped with fabrics and adorned with a Buddha and a bell and loads of candles and incense and vials of liquids with little handwritten labels. To the appearance, I'm a polytheist, a witch even, someone who believes in fairies and the supernatural. I'm not. I don't pretend to believe in anything and am unconvinced about all supernatural things from gods to unicorns.

But I'm agnostic, militant as I may be. The agnosticism leaves room for the possibility that I am wrong. It gives me freedom to simply practice as I see fit without the burden of proof but my understanding of 'agnostic' is that "proof of god is ultimately unknowable." I find there is a strange connotation of "I dunno and am not interested in the answer" why I use the term 'agnostic,' either that or I get a condescending nod from atheists who assume I'll join them in due time once I fully shed my religious upbringing.

I don't worry about marrying science and spirituality because they're not designed to answer the same questions. Does it matter that I have props and a space that remind me to calm and center myself, whether or not that they're actually powerful or have an effect on the outer world? I'm not worried about the logistics of practicing. I don't care if I miss a few weeks in between altar sessions. I'm not bothered by being right anymore, I simply do what feels like needs to be done. I LIKE my bones and feathers and candles and dry potions. They were made with purpose. And yes, I made it all up as I went, just like every other religion.

Honestly, I don't think that you have to believe in anything in order to practice. I don't believe in Artemis but if I'm trying to remind myself of my powerful feminine freedom then I'll call upon the IDEA of her. The idea is what's represented by her anyway (in my opinion), so why get bogged down in the semantics?

[Quetzal]

Re: Reconciling Pagan Spirituality with Modern Science

I don't believe in Artemis but if I'm trying to remind myself of my powerful feminine freedom then I'll call upon the IDEA of her. The idea is what's represented by her anyway (in my opinion), so why get bogged down in the semantics?

Yeah, that's pretty much my thoughts (although I don't practice anything 'cause I'm the laziest person on earth). Deities and the stories that go with them are powerful symbols, and damn, do I love symbols. Existence or non-existence of the supernatural is irrelevant to me, I wouldn't worship or whatever even if presented with irrefutable proof. They're brilliant symbols though, and what they represent is important. "Fiction is just as real as reality."