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    Heathen/NT Divide

    Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
    There are Jotnar deities in there, so it's definitely a Northern Tradition prayer rather than a Heathen one. If you are looking into the Northern faiths, it will be helpful for you to be aware of the difference... we've got some really great, open minded and accepting Heathens here at PF, but a lot of Heathen groups will tear you to shreds for being Northern Tradition. You don't have to worry about it here, but be prepared for that if you are posting stuff up in Heathen communities.

    The NT folk at Asphodel Press generally mix and match their languages and time periods, so I'll translate the names into Old Norse before I give you pronunciations. I don't do Old English, so I can't help you with those pronunciations. Old Norse is my language of choice lol. But also remember that the deities don't seem to care... we've been mispronouncing their names for hundreds of years. This is not something that you should feel obligated to care about. Lots of people don't, and that's perfectly okay. If you want to just use the common Anglicized US versions then it actually is okay to do that.

    In Old Norse the stress is always in the first syllable, so I wont bother to do the capitalise-to-indicate-stress thing.
    Thanks so much, Raeya. I'm extremely eclectic in what I believe, simply because a fundamental belief of mine is that it is literally impossible for us to know the full truth while limited by our human bodies. Mostly at this point in my life I'm trying to define a practice and develop some self-discipline when it comes to worship, so I'm exploring several things to try and find the specific practices (devotionals, rituals, etc.) that resonate most deeply. I'm just touching the tip of the iceberg with the Northern Traditions, but I'm liking what I see.

    On the note of not needing to know how to pronounce things... I've known several people from foreign countries who don't mind how we garble their names, but I do know whenever I've taken the time to learn, when I've given them that respect, it's deeply appreciated. I don't imagine would be any different with the gods. Not necessary, but respectful and appreciated.
    We are what we are. Nothing more, nothing less. There is good and evil among every kind of people. It's the evil among us who rule now. -Anne Bishop, Daughter of the Blood

    I wondered if he could ever understand that it was a blessing, not a sin, to be graced with more than one love.
    It could be complicated; of course it could be complicated. And it opened one up to the possibility of more pain and loss.
    Still, it was a blessing I would never relinquish. Love, genuine love, was always a cause for joy.
    -Jacqueline Carey, Naamah's Curse

    Service to your fellows is the root of peace.

    #2
    Re: Pronunciation

    Originally posted by Shahaku View Post
    Thanks so much, Raeya. I'm extremely eclectic in what I believe, simply because a fundamental belief of mine is that it is literally impossible for us to know the full truth while limited by our human bodies. Mostly at this point in my life I'm trying to define a practice and develop some self-discipline when it comes to worship, so I'm exploring several things to try and find the specific practices (devotionals, rituals, etc.) that resonate most deeply. I'm just touching the tip of the iceberg with the Northern Traditions, but I'm liking what I see.
    I generally identify as NT myself, so it's absolutely a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. I just like to warn people new to the path so that they are aware of the possible shit-storm in certain communities.

    On the note of not needing to know how to pronounce things... I've known several people from foreign countries who don't mind how we garble their names, but I do know whenever I've taken the time to learn, when I've given them that respect, it's deeply appreciated. I don't imagine would be any different with the gods. Not necessary, but respectful and appreciated.
    This is exactly how I feel about it myself. The effort I take to research and learn is a sign of my commitment and respect. Not everyone feels the need to do ir, and I don't think they are being disrespectful or anything like that... it's just one of those things that I feel is important for me.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Pronunciation

      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
      There are Jotnar deities in there, so it's definitely a Northern Tradition prayer rather than a Heathen one. If you are looking into the Northern faiths, it will be helpful for you to be aware of the difference... we've got some really great, open minded and accepting Heathens here at PF, but a lot of Heathen groups will tear you to shreds for being Northern Tradition. You don't have to worry about it here, but be prepared for that if you are posting stuff up in Heathen communities.
      I have a question about this. I've been doing general Germanic reconstruction for a while (still doing cross-culture studies at the moment. German, Norse, Anglo-Saxon, etc.) but I've only recently decided to also start participating with the modern heathen community within the last few months.

      I must say though, I've never heard of this differentiation in the communities I'm a part of. Are you saying that "Heathen" only refers to the mainland German traditions? I've only heard "heathen" as an all-encompassing term that includes all followers of the Germanic gods, no matter the variations of name or tradition. So a "heathen" can be Asatru, Theodish, Northern Tradition, Anglo-Saxon - whatever. This is the only way that I've heard the word "heathen" used both online and off.

      I'm just curious as to why you use "heathen" as such a specific term? I know, of course, that historically it was used in Germany by the Christians to refer to the "people of the heath", i.e. those that were not yet converted. But as far as I've been able to tell it gained a slightly different definition in modern context. Of course, I also live in the United States and countries tend to have their own vocabularies. Is this differentiation something that is common to Australia? Or has it been used in online communities?

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Pronunciation

        I believe she's referring to kindred and that sort of thing. Many in the heathen community look down on those who practice a variety of traditions. They seem big on labels.
        We are what we are. Nothing more, nothing less. There is good and evil among every kind of people. It's the evil among us who rule now. -Anne Bishop, Daughter of the Blood

        I wondered if he could ever understand that it was a blessing, not a sin, to be graced with more than one love.
        It could be complicated; of course it could be complicated. And it opened one up to the possibility of more pain and loss.
        Still, it was a blessing I would never relinquish. Love, genuine love, was always a cause for joy.
        -Jacqueline Carey, Naamah's Curse

        Service to your fellows is the root of peace.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Pronunciation

          Originally posted by Rowan Wulfram View Post
          Are you saying that "Heathen" only refers to the mainland German traditions?
          No, but I am saying that Heathen and Northern Tradition are two different things. Generally, most Heathen groups are reconstructionist and dislike the Northern Tradition folk. There are small pockets of Heathens who are not reconstructionst, but we're talking the big groups here. It's a disputed topic... whether or not Heathenry is JUST recons or whether in includes non-recons. But if you poke around on enough Heathen forums and websites you'll start to see that a large proportion of prominent US based groups consider Heathenry to specifically be reconstructionists. European groups are different, and the term 'heathen' there is much more of an umbrella term. Australia doesn't really have an opinion as a country, but then we tend to be fairly laid back about stuff like that.

          Either way, even a lot of non-recon Heathens get all weird about NT folk. Hence my warning to Shahaku. I've seen people new to the Northern Paths be ripped into for innocently mentioning NT stuff or Jotnar deities. NT folk aren't welcome at many Heathen forums and groups.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Pronunciation

            Thanks for your reply, I don't know very much about Northern Tradition and I guess I just didn't realize they were that different. Good to know! I did read some of "Exploring the Northern Tradition" when I first started studying paganism, is that what it was describing?

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Pronunciation

              Originally posted by Rowan Wulfram View Post
              Thanks for your reply, I don't know very much about Northern Tradition and I guess I just didn't realize they were that different. Good to know! I did read some of "Exploring the Northern Tradition" when I first started studying paganism, is that what it was describing?
              It's one of those things that comes down to petty politics, to be perfectly honest.

              Northern Tradition is the label that we use for non-recon, modernist forms of the Northern faiths which are generally much more accepting of UPG and which are incredibly inclusive when it comes to things like working with the Jotnar. Modern recon Heathens squabble over which Jotnar are acceptable and which aren't (generally Skadhi and Tyr are acceptable while Gerdh is tolerated, Loki is a nest of vipers and the thought of worshiping Fenrir or Surt is enough to trigger a conniption fit), while NT people accept and often actively seek the Jotnar deities. Working closely with the Alfar and Dvergr is not quite as controversial, but is common in NT circles.

              NT folk are also more likely to claim the term 'pagan', to work closely with nature (ironic, considering that a relationship with the local landvaettir was historically important yet is often left out of modern Heathen practices), to lean towards shamanism beyond what is commonly accepted as seidhr, and to be accepting of UPG. There are also a number of prominent NT people who claim to be reconstructing pre-Viking Age practices vs the Viking Age focus of many Heathen groups.

              In general, NT folk are far less concerned about the distinction as Heathen folk are. Which is why such discrimination tends to come as a surprise to a lot of us. If you're just starting in the online Heathen communities, then it's worth being aware of that. I don't mean to turn people away from Heathen groups... just to ensure that new people understand that there is a great deal of controversy about the issue and that it may lead to arguments or discrimination.

              As for "Exploring the Northern Tradition"... it's a very good book and I like it. Krasskova claims the term 'Heathen', while Kaldera is quite clear that he is NT and does not write about Heathenry. They are both controversial authors in Heathen circles for slightly different reasons... in some places just mentioning their names is enough to cause a shitfight, let alone agreeing with them. But yes, that particular book is a pretty good overview. And as you can see there is nothing spectacularly earth shattering about being Northern Tradition versus Heathen. Some of us claim both terms. Some of us claim only one. Some of us decide they'd rather avoid the conflict altogether and use labels like 'Norse Pagan' or 'Northern Polytheist' or something neutral like that.

              At the end of the day it's just labels. And squabbling over them is petty and ridiculous. But modern Heathenry cares more about labels than the average spiritual path does. Personally my only hardline about labels is that you shouldn't claim a label that don't belong to you. I personally define 'Heathen' as recon or at least modernist-recon groups, which is why I don't use that label.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Pronunciation

                Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                It's one of those things that comes down to petty politics, to be perfectly honest.

                Northern Tradition is the label that we use for non-recon, modernist forms of the Northern faiths which are generally much more accepting of UPG and which are incredibly inclusive when it comes to things like working with the Jotnar. Modern recon Heathens squabble over which Jotnar are acceptable and which aren't (generally Skadhi and Tyr are acceptable while Gerdh is tolerated, Loki is a nest of vipers and the thought of worshiping Fenrir or Surt is enough to trigger a conniption fit)

                To insinuate heathens do not have UPG is disingenuous, we DO have it it's just we do not go plastering it all over every message board and facebook group we can find seeking validation but instead talk about it with people we either trust or may have had similar experiences.


                In regards to Skadhi, she was accepted through marriage into their ranks and from that point on she is no longer considered an outsider. You must also remember that this was also taken in repayment for the death of her father, which shows that she was considered to have some value.


                As far as Gerd is concerned, she was taken through force by Frey and because of that her ranking among the gods is debatable, as is the fact whether or not she held any worth within their ranks other than being the possession of Frey. She is nothing more than a thrall/concubine and while she is part of Frey's household and no longer strictly an outsider, her value lies only in that


                What possible reason would anyone have in entering into the reciprocal gifting relationship with Fenrir? The same can be said for Loki considering what the evidence taught as opposed to tells.



                Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                NT folk are also more likely to claim the term 'pagan', to work closely with nature (ironic, considering that a relationship with the local landvaettir was historically important yet is often left out of modern Heathen practices)

                Not sure how you came to this conclusion, maybe in Australia it is like that but certainly not here.


                Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                In general, NT folk are far less concerned about the distinction as Heathen folk are. Which is why such discrimination tends to come as a surprise to a lot of us. If you're just starting in the online Heathen communities, then it's worth being aware of that. I don't mean to turn people away from Heathen groups... just to ensure that new people understand that there is a great deal of controversy about the issue and that it may lead to arguments or discrimination.

                Just look below at who the NT "leaders" are and their reputations.


                Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                As for "Exploring the Northern Tradition"... it's a very good book and I like it. Krasskova claims the term 'Heathen', while Kaldera is quite clear that he is NT and does not write about Heathenry. They are both controversial authors in Heathen circles for slightly different reasons... in some places just mentioning their names is enough to cause a shitfight, let alone agreeing with them. But yes, that particular book is a pretty good overview. And as you can see there is nothing spectacularly earth shattering about being Northern Tradition versus Heathen. Some of us claim both terms. Some of us claim only one. Some of us decide they'd rather avoid the conflict altogether and use labels like 'Norse Pagan' or 'Northern Polytheist' or something neutral like that.

                Galina is a nutter plain and simple and has a very bad reputation not just in "heathen circles" but in her actual regional area where we are WELL aware of her doings. As far as Kaldera is concerned, you say that "Krasskova claims the term 'Heathen', while Kaldera is quite clear that he is NT and does not write about Heathenry." but I can tell you at PAGAN gatherings...they dare not show to heathen ones...that he or his ilk show up to they PRESENT THEMSELVES as "being heathens" until of course they are called out on it and quickly change their tune.


                Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                At the end of the day it's just labels. And squabbling over them is petty and ridiculous. But modern Heathenry cares more about labels than the average spiritual path does. Personally my only hardline about labels is that you shouldn't claim a label that don't belong to you. I personally define 'Heathen' as recon or at least modernist-recon groups, which is why I don't use that label.
                Labels serve a purpose.

                - - - Updated - - -

                Originally posted by Rowan Wulfram View Post

                I'm just curious as to why you use "heathen" as such a specific term? I know, of course, that historically it was used in Germany by the Christians to refer to the "people of the heath", i.e. those that were not yet converted. But as far as I've been able to tell it gained a slightly different definition in modern context. Of course, I also live in the United States and countries tend to have their own vocabularies. Is this differentiation something that is common to Australia? Or has it been used in online communities?

                A more in depth analysis of the term.


                http://odroerirjournal.com/?wpfb_dl=2

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by GaryG View Post

                  To insinuate heathens do not have UPG is disingenuous, we DO have it it's just we do not go plastering it all over every message board and facebook group we can find seeking validation but instead talk about it with people we either trust or may have had similar experiences.

                  In regards to Skadhi, she was accepted through marriage into their ranks and from that point on she is no longer considered an outsider. You must also remember that this was also taken in repayment for the death of her father, which shows that she was considered to have some value.

                  As far as Gerd is concerned, she was taken through force by Frey and because of that her ranking among the gods is debatable, as is the fact whether or not she held any worth within their ranks other than being the possession of Frey. She is nothing more than a thrall/concubine and while she is part of Frey's household and no longer strictly an outsider, her value lies only in that

                  What possible reason would anyone have in entering into the reciprocal gifting relationship with Fenrir? The same can be said for Loki considering what the evidence taught as opposed to tells.

                  Not sure how you came to this conclusion, maybe in Australia it is like that but certainly not here.

                  Just look below at who the NT "leaders" are and their reputations.

                  Galina is a nutter plain and simple and has a very bad reputation not just in "heathen circles" but in her actual regional area where we are WELL aware of her doings. As far as Kaldera is concerned, you say that "Krasskova claims the term 'Heathen', while Kaldera is quite clear that he is NT and does not write about Heathenry." but I can tell you at PAGAN gatherings...they dare not show to heathen ones...that he or his ilk show up to they PRESENT THEMSELVES as "being heathens" until of course they are called out on it and quickly change their tune.

                  Labels serve a purpose.

                  - - - Updated - - -

                  A more in depth analysis of the term.

                  http://odroerirjournal.com/?wpfb_dl=2
                  You sound like the kind of guy we warn against.
                  ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

                  RIP

                  I have never been across the way
                  Seen the desert and the birds
                  You cut your hair short
                  Like a shush to an insult
                  The world had been yelling
                  Since the day you were born
                  Revolting with anger
                  While it smiled like it was cute
                  That everything was shit.

                  - J. Wylder

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Pronunciation

                    Firstly, Heka's right... you are actually not helping the image of recon Heathens here, GaryG. Secondly, let me address your addressing of my points, because it seems to me that you've jumped a few guns and not really paid attention to what I actually said.

                    Originally posted by GaryG View Post
                    To insinuate heathens do not have UPG is disingenuous, we DO have it it's just we do not go plastering it all over every message board and facebook group we can find seeking validation but instead talk about it with people we either trust or may have had similar experiences.
                    I didn't say that Heathens don't have UPG. I said that NT is generally much more accepting of UPG. Do you see the difference there?

                    Originally posted by GaryG View Post
                    In regards to Skadhi, she was accepted through marriage into their ranks and from that point on she is no longer considered an outsider. You must also remember that this was also taken in repayment for the death of her father, which shows that she was considered to have some value.
                    Yes, I know why Skadhi is accepted. I've read the Lore. I've also read the anthropology texts supporting Skadhi's worship in Viking Age Scandinavia. And I'm not really sure what your point here is, because we seem to agree on this particular issue.

                    Originally posted by GaryG View Post
                    As far as Gerd is concerned, she was taken through force by Frey and because of that her ranking among the gods is debatable, as is the fact whether or not she held any worth within their ranks other than being the possession of Frey. She is nothing more than a thrall/concubine and while she is part of Frey's household and no longer strictly an outsider, her value lies only in that.
                    Uh huh. Are you supporting or denying my claim that Heathens squabble over whether deities like Gerdhr are acceptable or not?

                    Originally posted by GaryG View Post
                    What possible reason would anyone have in entering into the reciprocal gifting relationship with Fenrir? The same can be said for Loki considering what the evidence taught as opposed to tells.
                    Me personally, none. But that doesn't mean that it's not valid for someone else to feel the need to do so.

                    Regarding Loki. Really? Loki helped the Aesir far more than he harmed them. He got them out of every pickle that he put them in, and that they put themselves into. He handed them almost every single one of their most precious treasures. He is Odhinn's blood brother and traveled extensively with both Odhinn and with Thor. If you've read the Lore you know this. So exactly what is this 'evidence' supposed to have taught us?

                    Originally posted by GaryG View Post
                    Not sure how you came to this conclusion, maybe in Australia it is like that but certainly not here.
                    I came to that conclusion after observing online Heathen websites and communities for eight years and reading a large number of books by Heathen authors. And if you'll notice, I did say 'is often left out', not 'is always left out' or even 'is left out'.

                    Can I presume from your comment that you are an animist yourself? Do you work with your local landvaettir on a regular basis? I would be interested in further details if you'd like to educate me further on the workings of you and your kindred.

                    Originally posted by GaryG View Post
                    Just look below at who the NT "leaders" are and their reputations.
                    I'm aware of their reputations. Hence why I commented on their reputations and like to warn people about the exact reaction that you are now displaying. Thank you for validating my point.

                    Originally posted by GaryG View Post
                    Galina is a nutter plain and simple and has a very bad reputation not just in "heathen circles" but in her actual regional area where we are WELL aware of her doings. As far as Kaldera is concerned, you say that "Krasskova claims the term 'Heathen', while Kaldera is quite clear that he is NT and does not write about Heathenry." but I can tell you at PAGAN gatherings...they dare not show to heathen ones...that he or his ilk show up to they PRESENT THEMSELVES as "being heathens" until of course they are called out on it and quickly change their tune.
                    Having never been to a pagan gathering in the US I can't comment one way or another on this. But have you ever read either of their books? Every single book of Kaldera's, as well as his websites, have obvious disclaimers saying that he is not Heathen. And if they'd called their shared books 'Exlporing Heathenry' and 'Heathenry for the Solitary Practitioner' I'd have a different opinion of the books. But they don't.

                    As for Krasskova, personally I have an issue with her claiming the term Heathen, which I believe I have already mentioned here at PF at least once. I define Heathen as recon, and she's not recon. I also don't particularly like her as an author, and there are things within both her and Kaldera's books that I don't agree with. But there are also things written by authors such as Thorsson, Aswyn, Plowright, Gerrard, Fries and even Gundarsson that I don't agree with. Not to mention our good friend Snorri. But I try not to throw babies out with bathwater.

                    Either way, personal attacks against authors is not an effective way give feedback or to educate other people about said authors. Attack the work, not the author.

                    Originally posted by GaryG View Post
                    Labels serve a purpose.
                    Yes they do. Hence why I use labels, and why I have a hardline in my opinion on labels. Did I criticise Heathenry over caring about labels? No. I said that squabbling over them is petty.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Pronunciation

                      Originally posted by Heka View Post
                      You sound like the kind of guy we warn against.
                      yes, clearly...

                      - - - Updated - - -

                      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                      Firstly, Heka's right... you are actually not helping the image of recon Heathens here, GaryG. Secondly, let me address your addressing of my points, because it seems to me that you've jumped a few guns and not really paid attention to what I actually said.

                      "Recons" do not really care what people think to be perfectly blunt, *WE* know what it is we do, why we do it. It is kinda funny to see it get bashed by the very people who have absolutely no problem using the information out there about it while at the same time bashing the people who got that information. It is also interesting to see the majority of people using the term recon or using it to describe what recon in get it wrong it is no surprise.



                      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                      I didn't say that Heathens don't have UPG. I said that NT is generally much more accepting of UPG. Do you see the difference there?

                      "NT" are more accepting of anything and everything that seems to get them validation, like I said I know plenty of people, myself included, who have it and the difference is as was stated. Heathens ARE "accepting" of UPG except when it is presented as fact or like I said, when it is plastered on every form of communication seeking validation.



                      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                      Yes, I know why Skadhi is accepted. I've read the Lore. I've also read the anthropology texts supporting Skadhi's worship in Viking Age Scandinavia. And I'm not really sure what your point here is, because we seem to agree on this particular issue.
                      My "point" is that because of this statement you made, "Modern recon Heathens squabble over which Jotnar are acceptable and which aren't (generally Skadhi and Tyr are acceptable while Gerdh is tolerated, Loki is a nest of vipers and the thought of worshiping Fenrir or Surt is enough to trigger a conniption fit)"

                      The "worship" of some of the jotnar is only a sticking point because of the fact that people try to use it as an argument or a reason to worship the rest of them without knowing the reasons WHY.


                      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                      Uh huh. Are you supporting or denying my claim that Heathens squabble over whether deities like Gerdhr are acceptable or not?
                      Actually it is mostly a non-issue, in some places the value of some of the reginn may be debateable but at the end of the day it is up to that individuals/groups rooftree practice.

                      Kinda like Simek's "The Vanir: An Obituary", it got a whole lot of people up in arms before they even bothered to read it and then when they did they still were pissed because they obviously did not understand it, for those that did it was more along the lines of "huh, well that was an interesting take on it, but does it really affect what I am doing?"



                      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                      Me personally, none. But that doesn't mean that it's not valid for someone else to feel the need to do so.
                      ::shrug:: If the worship of destructful, baleful wights totally in the utangardh is your thing rock on man, if that is the cart you want to attach your luck and reputation to you are more than welcome. As I said, what is the purpose of entering into the reciporocal gifting relationship.

                      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                      Regarding Loki. Really? Loki helped the Aesir far more than he harmed them. He got them out of every pickle that he put them in, and that they put themselves into. He handed them almost every single one of their most precious treasures. He is Odhinn's blood brother and traveled extensively with both Odhinn and with Thor. If you've read the Lore you know this. So exactly what is this 'evidence' supposed to have taught us?
                      Yes, "really", the gifts they received were weregild payments for his constant fuck-ups, it was either that or death. And the "blood brother" reference is from a single line in a single poem which is dated way post conversion.

                      You may have read the lore but you read what it told not what it taught, REGARDLESS of all the neat things they got from Loki if you keep screwing up time and time and time again there is eventually going to come a time where the amount of payback is not enough and your community is going to finally get sick and tired of your nonsense and outlaw you.


                      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                      I came to that conclusion after observing online Heathen websites and communities for eight years and reading a large number of books by Heathen authors. And if you'll notice, I did say 'is often left out', not 'is always left out' or even 'is left out'.

                      And I came to my conclusions by observing it by myself, with my group and with the larger heathen community out here...


                      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                      Can I presume from your comment that you are an animist yourself? Do you work with your local landvaettir on a regular basis? I would be interested in further details if you'd like to educate me further on the workings of you and your kindred.
                      As a matter of fact I/we do yes. If you are serious about a discussion should a separate thread be started?


                      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                      I'm aware of their reputations. Hence why I commented on their reputations and like to warn people about the exact reaction that you are now displaying. Thank you for validating my point.
                      You're "aware of it" and I have actually seen it, big difference. When you have an entire geographical community warning others who have "heard about them" but never experiened them you might want to pay attention. They have the reputation they do for a good reason, and it is not pretty.


                      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                      Having never been to a pagan gathering in the US I can't comment one way or another on this. But have you ever read either of their books? Every single book of Kaldera's, as well as his websites, have obvious disclaimers saying that he is not Heathen. And if they'd called their shared books 'Exlporing Heathenry' and 'Heathenry for the Solitary Practitioner' I'd have a different opinion of the books. But they don't.

                      Read their books? Why would I even bother? I *KNOW* what his books "say" and I also know how they present themselves at events, you can write disclaimers all you like but when in public you present yourselves as the thing you claim to not be you are being a fraud.

                      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                      As for Krasskova, personally I have an issue with her claiming the term Heathen, which I believe I have already mentioned here at PF at least once. I define Heathen as recon, and she's not recon. I also don't particularly like her as an author, and there are things within both her and Kaldera's books that I don't agree with. But there are also things written by authors such as Thorsson, Aswyn, Plowright, Gerrard, Fries and even Gundarsson that I don't agree with. Not to mention our good friend Snorri. But I try not to throw babies out with bathwater.


                      She seems to be pissing off a whole lotta different people considering she is the conductor of the cultural appropriation train.

                      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                      Either way, personal attacks against authors is not an effective way give feedback or to educate other people about said authors. Attack the work, not the author.
                      In this case, they both need to be exposed as for what they are,

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Heathen/NT Divide

                        I've made this topic it's own thread as it was travelling quite a ways away from the OP. As I can see the possibility that emotions could run high, I am going to politely request that we keep this calm and polite.
                        We are what we are. Nothing more, nothing less. There is good and evil among every kind of people. It's the evil among us who rule now. -Anne Bishop, Daughter of the Blood

                        I wondered if he could ever understand that it was a blessing, not a sin, to be graced with more than one love.
                        It could be complicated; of course it could be complicated. And it opened one up to the possibility of more pain and loss.
                        Still, it was a blessing I would never relinquish. Love, genuine love, was always a cause for joy.
                        -Jacqueline Carey, Naamah's Curse

                        Service to your fellows is the root of peace.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Heathen/NT Divide

                          Originally posted by Shahaku View Post
                          I've made this topic it's own thread as it was travelling quite a ways away from the OP. As I can see the possibility that emotions could run high, I am going to politely request that we keep this calm and polite.
                          It's okay, Shahaku. I'm not particularly interested in this current shitfight. This is the exact reason that I don't hang around in Heathen communities.

                          But if others have any contribution or questions about the difference between Heathenry and Northern Tradition then I'm happy to explore it further.

                          Otherwise, I have a few valid discussion points to bring up, but am removing myself from the slinging match.

                          Originally posted by GaryG View Post
                          "Recons" do not really care what people think to be perfectly blunt, *WE* know what it is we do, why we do it. It is kinda funny to see it get bashed by the very people who have absolutely no problem using the information out there about it while at the same time bashing the people who got that information. It is also interesting to see the majority of people using the term recon or using it to describe what recon in get it wrong it is no surprise.
                          You know GaryG, there's a lot that I could say here and to comments later in your post, but I'm not going to bother. It's your right to practice your faith however you want to. It's my right to practice mine and it's Shahaku and Rowan Wulfram's right to practice theirs. It's also our right to disagree with each other.

                          But while I'm always interested in engaged discussion and debate, which by it's nature is enriching to the understanding of the participants, I'm NOT interested in shitfights or slinging matches. Discussion can get heated, and I'm fine with that. But this here isn't a discussion. Your comments display a lack of interest in what our differences are and how we can learn from each other.

                          There are two or three things that I can pull from this 'discussion' so far that are worth pursuing further. So if you feel like you'd like to engage in some discussion from which we, and others, can learn from, then I am interested in continuing. But if the slinging match is liable to continue, then I'll refer you up to my comment to Shahaku.

                          Originally posted by GaryG View Post
                          Yes, "really", the gifts they received were weregild payments for his constant fuck-ups, it was either that or death. And the "blood brother" reference is from a single line in a single poem which is dated way post conversion.

                          You may have read the lore but you read what it told not what it taught, REGARDLESS of all the neat things they got from Loki if you keep screwing up time and time and time again there is eventually going to come a time where the amount of payback is not enough and your community is going to finally get sick and tired of your nonsense and outlaw you.
                          Loki's validity as a deity to be worshiped is, as I mentioned, a nest of vipers. You interpret the Lore your way, Lokeans interpret it theirs. I am not Lokean, nor am I interested in worshiping Loki. BUT I am a sympethiser, because what I have read and learned from the Lore is a great deal more complex and nuanced than 'weregild for constant f*ups'. Loki is also one of those topics that I think people new to the Northern paths should be made aware of, and given a chance to see both sides of this story. A discussion on Loki would be interesting, from my point of view, but only if it is a civil open discussion. Heated is fine by me... Loki has a habit of turning things heated... but there's a fine line between heated and slinging match.

                          Originally posted by GaryG View Post
                          As a matter of fact I/we do yes. If you are serious about a discussion should a separate thread be started?
                          Yes, actually. I was, and still am, serious about this. I am an animist who works with my local (and not local) landvaettir, as well as various other vaettir. I've been a bit slower getting my ancestor work off the ground but I'm getting there. So I'll take the initiative with this one and go and start a thread about working with landvaettir. I hope that you'll pop in and contribute.

                          Originally posted by GaryG View Post
                          She seems to be pissing off a whole lotta different people considering she is the conductor of the cultural appropriation train.

                          ...

                          In this case, they both need to be exposed as for what they are,
                          Lastly I just want to repeat... attack the work, not the author. If you wish to expose authors, then tell us what you feel is wrong with their work. Read the books, review them, tear the book to shreds if you must. But direct your comments at things that they have said and written rather than making blanket statements about the authors as people. You may actually find there are things that we agree on (such as cultural appropriation, historical inaccuracy and the mis-labelling of UPG). But unfortunately, you can't make an educated comment about an author's work if you haven't actually read the work. Comments on personal behaviour at public events (or on public forums or blogs etc) is relevant, but only to a point. Everything else is hearsay.

                          Perhaps a discussion on Heathen/NT/Rune/Northern Path books would be useful. Perhaps we should consider a 'book reviews' thread here in the Heathen board. Then we could discuss the finer points of any given author's work in a setting where it may serve to educate people rather than alienate them.

                          - - - Updated - - -

                          Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                          Yes, actually. I was, and still am, serious about this. I am an animist who works with my local (and not local) landvaettir, as well as various other vaettir. I've been a bit slower getting my ancestor work off the ground but I'm getting there. So I'll take the initiative with this one and go and start a thread about working with landvaettir. I hope that you'll pop in and contribute.
                          Looks like I was beaten to it

                          I'll head over there right now...

                          Comment


                            #14
                            My only opinion on this is:

                            I have not been exposed to other heathern etc communites. I've only been here. My introduction into NT came here, from Rae'ya.

                            But.

                            I'm much more inclined to listen to someone who is polite and admits the faults of both sides.

                            Thats what has drawn me to the NT 'side ' rather than the Heathen one.

                            Interesting reading though
                            ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

                            RIP

                            I have never been across the way
                            Seen the desert and the birds
                            You cut your hair short
                            Like a shush to an insult
                            The world had been yelling
                            Since the day you were born
                            Revolting with anger
                            While it smiled like it was cute
                            That everything was shit.

                            - J. Wylder

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Heathen/NT Divide

                              Over here the divide is quite geographical.
                              The majority of people calling themselves heathens that I have met are all northerners.

                              Apologies for typos and ramblings. I am using a tablet and just recovering from some awful kidney virus.

                              Anyway to throw my oar in, I prefer use of the more accurate and clear terms such as odinist, asatru etc.
                              To me a heathen is just any non-christian.

                              We had and have an eclectic mix of faiths in northern Europe and by taking over use of a nice blanket term like heathen to only describe odinists is doing our heritage a diservice.

                              Its why people started calling themselves NT , to avoid being identified as something they are not.

                              In general life if you encounter a heathen they are going to be some degree of asatru/odinist type often with a good knowledge of the appropriate texts but paired with an inability to appreciate the social and historic context of those writings ( this is true of others too).

                              This is not true of some of the more academic recon people.
                              They understand all of this but are choosing to reconstruct a specific lifestyle and faith. I've had some great discussions with this type of recon heathen and they happily acknowledged that they were focusing on a narrow topic.

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