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    I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.


    #2
    Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

    I know how you feel. I'm drawn to the Heathen path myself, but usually identify as eclectic pagan because there seems to be this attitude of: THIS is how you honor the gods! You're doing it wrong!

    Granted, I am also free to say: No, *you're* doing it wrong! But it doesn't help the sense of community to be constantly arguing.

    I use the nine fold path as a framework, but that's all. I don't honor my ancestors because they were Christians and probably wouldn't appreciate my filthy Pagan self bothering them. My living family gets along like cats in a sack, so honoring kindred gets tough when when Thier Tara said that about Our Jennifer at Grandpa's funeral and why did I have to point out Grandpa was an atheist in front of my nephew? ,He's only 11, he doesn't need to know other viewpoints exist!

    So you get the idea.

    I get along great with my gods and I don't appreciate people getting in my face over how I honor them.

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      #3
      Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

      It sounds like what you've been dealing with is conservative Reconstructionists. They tend to be incredibly focused on what we know through text, which is an incredibly narrow view considering that the Northern Tradition is mostly an oral one and majority of our texts came after the influence of Christianity. But at the same time, you can not blame them for such a stance because if we allowed anyone's personal gnosis to influence a group's beliefs, we'd be just as lost. I think the answer lies somewhere in between. If the Gods are communicating to you on a personal level, perhaps that message is meant to be just for you. I definitely believe that the more esoteric aspects of our faith is more of a solitary path. The average Heathen knows just enough to revere the Gods. They're certainly not going to advocate the wide usage of utiseta, for example.

      As someone who is naturally adept at the more esoteric explorations of our tradition, my only advice to you is to refrain from "preaching" what you've come to know and instead, focus on living it. Share your view point by not sharing it. Be the embodiment of it instead of verbalizing it. Perhaps those around you are not ready to see what you have been shown. We each have our own wyrd, our own orlog, our own path. There is an old Hermetic saying that goes as follows, "The lips of wisdom are closed, except to the ears of understanding." This essentially means that spouting all the truth in the world won't mean anything to the person who isn't ready to hear it yet. Instead of creating needless friction in your kinship, observe and appreciate the differences. Use it to strengthen your personal connection with the Gods. Know that even in a group, we're still on our own individual paths and trust in yours. And thank the Gods that you live near a group of people who even remotely share the faith as you because many of us, myself included, no longer live near any fellow followers of the Northern Tradition.

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        #4
        Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

        I simply believe the Norse beliefs had a structure as in the gods were known but I don't think churches or shamans were big I think every one honored the gods in there way not just vikings but also women in childbirth men with harvest . Mead horned helms and fancy boat isn't required, honor the gods is pretty much it in my opinion and from the little I know of Norse culture
        Knowledge is the key to eternity. Not bowing before a deity not grovling at the feet of a messiah. Knowledge is power beyond mesure - satanic witch

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          #5
          Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

          One thing to remember is that there is no One Tru Heathenry. There is no such thing as an AsaPope and I hope there never will be.

          Last I checked using entheogens in worship is A-Ok accurate to how the old folks did it.

          The Heathenry of the Anglo-Saxons looked nothing like that of mainland Germany, which looked nothing like that of Iceland, etc. And if a Heathen had a Celtic next door neighbor a mile away, the two would have more similarities than two Heathens who lived 100 miles apart.

          Further, though I honor my Christian as well as my distant Heathen ancestors, I do it because I want to, because they are the reason I am where I am today, and because I know my ancestors actually give a crap about me. Though your Heathenry may differ from mine, doesn't mean that you're practice is invalid in any way.

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            #6
            Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

            Originally posted by thoraxepi View Post
            The Heathenry of the Anglo-Saxons looked nothing like that of mainland Germany, which looked nothing like that of Iceland, etc. And if a Heathen had a Celtic next door neighbor a mile away, the two would have more similarities than two Heathens who lived 100 miles apart.
            All the Germanic tribes shared a broad culture. The local customs were slightly different, but language, the pantheon, social setup etc. were similar. And they shared their knowledge and religious customs throughout Europe, esp. via the trade routes. In the 3rdnd edition; C.H. Beck; 2006). Norns are pretty much the same as Parcae and Moirai.

            In ancient times religion was a part of the society and everyday living, nothing with a strictly defined faith or dogmatic truths you must believe to join. The philosophers debated what a god might be, but they never thought different ideas about a god would make up a new religion (see: Cicero; de natura deorum ("About the nature of the Gods")).

            All that changed with Christianity as the new state cult. All three Abrahamic monotheisms do not only define themselves on what they revere but also on what is wrong. To join them you must not only believe in their ideology you must forfeit all other ideas. Jan Assmann calls that the "Mosaic Distinction". That was lacking in ancient heathenism. Many modern heathens have unfortunately adopted that due to our cultural heritage, which is Christian for the last 1000 - 1600 years depending on where you come from.

            If you honour Odin, Thor, Freya etc. you are Asatru. If your honour Zeus, Apollo, Athena etc. you are Hellinst. If you honour both of them you are both, no problem. But it does not suffice to honour God/Jesus (or Jahwe or Allah) to be a Christian (or Jew or Muslim), you must not honour all the others. The First Commandment does not say "I am a great god, honour me." It says: "I am a jealous god, do not honour the others". That is the main difference.

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              #7
              Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

              Originally posted by AnMa View Post
              Norns are pretty much the same as Parcae and Moirai.
              No, they aren't. The entire concept of fate and destiny in Northern European cultures was quite different to those of the Hellenic and Roman cultures, which renders some fairly important differences between the Moirai and the Parcae as compared to the Nornir. It is arguable that the imagery of the Nornir spinning was borrowed from the Parcae, and I suspect the popular 'spinner, weaver, cutter' triad also was. But that's where the "pretty much the same" ends.

              That's like saying that Odhinn was pretty much the same as Zeus. There are similarities (some striking, some more subtle), and they roughly fill the same archetypal 'job' within their respective pantheons... but that doesn't make them "pretty much the same". Even if you take the approach that all deities are simply archetypes worshiped through different cultural lenses, their very existence as individual 'beings' is dependent on the cultural context within which they evolved. You have to discard a great many differences before you can make them the same.

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                #8
                Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

                If I could I'd give up everything in this life, to follow that path.
                Why can't you? People have given up the comforts of civilization to seek the divine (to a greater or lesser degree) for millenia, there's nothing stopping you. Sure, you don't have a tribe or village to support you as was the case for the shaman of old, but unless there are exception circumstances at work, you could, if you put in the effort, move to a rural area, find a place to live close to nature, find a job that will support you with the bare necessities and then devote the rest of your time to meditation, study and spiritual work.

                Even if you don't want to give up the comforts of civilization entirely, there's nothing stopping you from devoting at least a few hours a day to your practice and going on retreat whenever possible to escape into the natural world entirely.

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                  #9
                  Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

                  Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                  No, they aren't. The entire concept of fate and destiny in Northern European cultures was quite different to those of the Hellenic and Roman cultures, which renders some fairly important differences between the Moirai and the Parcae as compared to the Nornir. It is arguable that the imagery of the Nornir spinning was borrowed from the Parcae, and I suspect the popular 'spinner, weaver, cutter' triad also was. But that's where the "pretty much the same" ends.

                  That's like saying that Odhinn was pretty much the same as Zeus. There are similarities (some striking, some more subtle), and they roughly fill the same archetypal 'job' within their respective pantheons... but that doesn't make them "pretty much the same". Even if you take the approach that all deities are simply archetypes worshiped through different cultural lenses, their very existence as individual 'beings' is dependent on the cultural context within which they evolved. You have to discard a great many differences before you can make them the same.
                  Sure there are differences but the similarities, even if there are only very few, allow heathens to treat Gods and other entities from other pantheons in a common and respectful way by identifying them as their own despite the cultural differences. Like the Romans did with their interpretatio Romana which was adopted by the Germanic tribes as well. Translating "dies Mercurii" into "Wednesday" is exactly like saying Wdoan is pretty much the same as Mercury. In my opinion that was (and should be) a very appealing way of looking at other religions.

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                    #10
                    Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

                    That is what I find appealing about some of the newer more open "branches" of Heathenry. Urglaawe, Vanatru, Waincraft are all about mixing old and new. They tend to be more open and willing to educate. While they are more Vanir focused they still honor the Asa gods.

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by AnMa View Post
                      Sure there are differences but the similarities, even if there are only very few, allow heathens to treat Gods and other entities from other pantheons in a common and respectful way by identifying them as their own despite the cultural differences. Like the Romans did with their interpretatio Romana which was adopted by the Germanic tribes as well. Translating "dies Mercurii" into "Wednesday" is exactly like saying Wdoan is pretty much the same as Mercury. In my opinion that was (and should be) a very appealing way of looking at other religions.
                      Naaah see this doesn't roll right with me either. Rae'ya does words better than me though.

                      I think, yes, there are similarities between northern and roman (and everyone elses) deity, but none of the northern gods fit neatly into the same niche. So odhinn has similarities to both zeus and mercury, but he isnt anywhere near as similar to zeus as, say, jupiter.

                      I just dont think you can pigeon hole them like that. But you're welcome to your opinion.
                      ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

                      RIP

                      I have never been across the way
                      Seen the desert and the birds
                      You cut your hair short
                      Like a shush to an insult
                      The world had been yelling
                      Since the day you were born
                      Revolting with anger
                      While it smiled like it was cute
                      That everything was shit.

                      - J. Wylder

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                        #12
                        Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

                        Originally posted by AnMa View Post
                        Sure there are differences but the similarities, even if there are only very few, allow heathens to treat Gods and other entities from other pantheons in a common and respectful way by identifying them as their own despite the cultural differences. Like the Romans did with their interpretatio Romana which was adopted by the Germanic tribes as well. Translating "dies Mercurii" into "Wednesday" is exactly like saying Wdoan is pretty much the same as Mercury. In my opinion that was (and should be) a very appealing way of looking at other religions.
                        Personally I don't find equating gods with each other as a respectful or appealing way of looking at other religions. To me that smacks of ego-centric 'I'm right and the rest of you can only be right if yours looks like mine'. It's like... oh, I can respect you because you're just like my aunt Jane... you are both blonde and dentists and like the colour orange... you're pretty much the same person! That's not respectful to the entity. But then, I am a hard polytheist so I do see them as actual distinct entities. I understand that not everyone thinks that way.

                        It's true that many of our ancestors took a more pantheistic approach to the world. But it's also true that many of our ancestors were narrow minded and racist. It's certainly demonstratable that the Romans equated deities with each other... but was that out of respect or was that out of their sense of their own superiority? No one else's gods had true merit of their own... they must just be poor misguided interpretations of Jupiter and Mars and Diana. Because everyone knows that those are the true gods. Our Northern ancestors adopted foreign gods as often as they absorbed them. And I don't feel that choosing to change the Roman day of Mercury into Woden's day is "exactly like saying Woden is pretty much the same as Mercury". By that logic, we can assume that the Germanic peoples thought that Donar was pretty much the same as Jupiter... and frankly, the similarities there end the minute you you get past the thunderbolts. It makes perfect sense to appease the Romans (who have already told you that they think Woden is just your name for Mercury) by naming your weekdays after their system, while quietly going about your business and changing very little about your actual worship practice.

                        Metaphors and similes are helpful interpretative tools. But if you need to equate other people's cultural elements with your own in order to show them 'respect'... well personally I don't think that's honest and genuine respect. Not in today's day and age. Our world is larger now than it was for our ancestors. We have the global perspective and the social diversity to allow us to look outside of our own cultural lens rather than interpreting foreign peoples via our own limited worldview.

                        And of course we have to be honest with ourselves. Our ancestors were hardly the perfect, respectful, honorable, hospitable, upstanding citizens that we like to think they were. Our ancestors were flawed, just as we are. Modelling our modern behaviour on a romanticised idea of the past may give us the framework to strive towards being 'better people', but lets not delude ourselves. Our ancestors weren't like that. They were often racist. They kept slaves. They were narrow minded. They raped and pillaged. They were homophobic. They were not the perfect examples of hospitality and frith that we like to think they were... and they didn't have a profound knowledge of spiritual truth. They were just trying to make their way in the world, just as we are.

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                          #13
                          Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

                          Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                          It makes perfect sense to appease the Romans (who have already told you that they think Woden is just your name for Mercury) by naming your weekdays after their system, while quietly going about your business and changing very little about your actual worship practice.
                          Completely random question, why'd the equate Woden* and Mercury instead of Woden and Zeus.


                          *I'm presuming that Woden is either an alt interpretation/name of Odin or someone holding a similar role.
                          life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                          Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                          "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                          John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                          "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                          Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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                            #14
                            Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

                            Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
                            Completely random question, why'd the equate Woden* and Mercury instead of Woden and Zeus.


                            *I'm presuming that Woden is either an alt interpretation/name of Odin or someone holding a similar role.
                            Woden is the continental Germanic name for Odhinn (which is the Old Norse spelling of Odin).

                            They linked Woden with Mercury because Mercury was a thief, cunning, a traveler, a psycopomp and a poet. Woden was a thief, cunning, a traveler, can be loosely considered a psychopomp sort of (personally I disagree but hey, he's a keeper of some of the dead), and is responsible for stealing the mead of poetry and bringing it to Asgardhr. Woden is a little less 'supreme sky god' than Odhinn is, so a lot of the similarities with Jupiter are discarded in favor of Mercury because of Woden's mythology versus Odhinn's mythology (the differences between the focus of continental Germania versus Scandinavia and Iceland). Plus Jupiter (Zeus) had a thunderbolt. And you know... Thor (Germanic Donar) is the Thunderer. So Jupiter MUST be Thor. Obviously Odhinn can't be equal to two of the Roman gods at once, so in order to make it all neatly fit you have to break the edges off a few square pegs.

                            Can you see my issue with this?

                            - - - Updated - - -

                            I tend to think that the equation of the Germanic deities with the Roman ones was more a symptom of the Romans than the Germanic tribes. You don't really see this so much further north, where the Roman influence was limited. The Scandinavian Viking and Migration Age peoples had plenty of contact with foreign deities (the Saami deities and the Finno-Ugric deities being the main ones) but they tend to be referenced as foreign deities and not equated with each other. So why did the Germans do it? We know that this was a very successful tactic of the Romans, particularly with the foreigners that were absorbed into Roman armies. And of course one of our main sources for Germanic myth and tradition was a Roman (Tacitus) who fought with and against Germanic tribes. So I'm far less inclined to believe that the Germanic tribes were the driving force behind this than I am to suspect the practice evolved from invasive Roman influence. But then, continental Germania is not my focus... I'm Norse-based. I'd be interested to hear the perspectives of this from people from other ends of the Heathenry spectrum... notably Moonraven (Danish) and Mrs P (Anglo Saxon).

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                              #15
                              Re: I feel like Heathenism is lacking something.

                              Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                              Can you see my issue with this?
                              I'm cringing. I'll acknowledge some of the similarities between Odin's behavior and Mercury's skillset but unless by "a little less supreme sky god", you mean entirely not leader of the Aesir, this still leads to the highly entertaining position that a someone's (depends on who one wants to credit with a more accurate vision) head of pantheon is play-acting as a lesser Power when interacting with the other culture and....

                              yeah, my head hurts now.

                              also Thor = Jupiter?

                              really............................................ ................
                              life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                              Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                              "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                              John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                              "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                              Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                              Comment

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