Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Greek vs Roman pantheons

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #16
    Re: Greek vs Roman pantheons

    [quote author=volcaniclastic link=topic=983.msg18210#msg18210 date=1291011699]
    Okay, so...

    I've read through this whole thread twice, and I'm still confused. IS there a difference between the grecian pantheon and the roman pantheon, besides the difference in quantity of gods?

    How is Jupiter difference than Zeus? How is Diana different than Artemis, Bacchus from Dionysus, etc?
    [/quote]

    Besides the quantity? No not really. Of course there are differences but to be honest both pantheons in essence cover all the same territory. But that is just my opinion... I REALLY payed attention to get an A at advanced higher Classical Studies Another reason this thread was urking me.

    [quote author=magusjinx link=topic=983.msg18199#msg18199 date=1291008667]
    *hands FW a cookie*
    [/quote]

    I accept cookie X
    "You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me"- CS Lewis


    https://www.facebook.com/KimberlyHagenART

    Comment


      #17
      Re: Greek vs Roman pantheons

      [quote author=volcaniclastic link=topic=983.msg18210#msg18210 date=1291011699]
      Okay, so...

      I've read through this whole thread twice, and I'm still confused. IS there a difference between the grecian pantheon and the roman pantheon, besides the difference in quantity of gods?

      How is Jupiter difference than Zeus? How is Diana different than Artemis, Bacchus from Dionysus, etc?
      [/quote]

      I think it's not so much their individual spheres of influence that are different, but how they are perceived by Their various cultures. Dionysus was a foreign God to the Greeks, a young mad God, sort of dangerous and unpredictable. Bacchus is this jolly old lecherous drunkard, far more familiar and comfortable as a drinking buddy. Most of the Roman Gods - although younger than the Greek deities in a way - seem to be more mature in nature, less prone to jealous fits of rage or fickle trickery. They are trustworthy and dependable, and will usually do what They promise. The Romans to me always seemed more practical in nature than the Greeks - not as curious or inventive, more settled into a solid urban lifestyle, so it would be natural that their Gods would follow suit.
      The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

      Comment


        #18
        Re: Greek vs Roman pantheons

        There are a lot of differences, and partly this is due to the way that both cultures tended to syncretise whatever they came across... in the case of the Greeks and Romans this basically means that they took what they fancied from cultures they either conquered or had contact with. So Apollo morphed from an archer god and became also, amongst other things, a god of healing, a god of the sun and even the Mouse God (I kid you not. )

        The Greek Artemis, in one of her very early forms was potnia theron, the lady of small (or wild) animals. But the Roman Diana for example, hd a function in her form at Neri of deciding disputes, something the Greek counterpart never had.

        Partly this is due to cultural misunderstandings. When Caesar described those he considered barbarians as worshipping Mercury, he didn't mean this literally. But it looked like some form of Mercury to him, i.e. there were some attributes he thought he recognised. Sometimes, (from what exists in the archaeological record) as in Roman north Africa, local gods were deliberately suppressed, or people were told that their deities were 'really' a Roman one.

        But the two pantheons are really quite different. The differences may be subtle, but they're there all the same. And my earlier point - that bad sources basically make for poor interpretations - still stands. The Greek and Roman cultures were very different. It may have suited the Romans to pretend otherwise, but the bigger picture is much more interesting.
        www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


        Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

        Comment


          #19
          Re: Greek vs Roman pantheons

          [quote author=Tylluan Penry link=topic=983.msg18245#msg18245 date=1291021438]
          But the two pantheons are really quite different. The differences may be subtle, but they're there all the same. And my earlier point - that bad sources basically make for poor interpretations - still stands. The Greek and Roman cultures were very different. It may have suited the Romans to pretend otherwise, but the bigger picture is much more interesting.
          [/quote]


          ^what she said...

          The really aren't the same.

          I posted most of this in another thread...but...to claim that they were the same is pretty much a gross oversimplification but common error concerning Roman religion.

          Originally posted by V.
          IS there a difference between the grecian pantheon and the roman pantheon, besides the difference in quantity of gods?
          The gods of the Romans were a combination of their own gods, the gods of the Etruscans, the Latins and the other people that populated what is now Italy when the Romans got there--the people that became Rome. Later, the Romans adopted some of the mythology of the Greek gods and grafted it on to their existing pantheon, but the gods themselves are not the same...though there is quite a bit of overlap for the major deities of both religions. This structuring of the major gods into the same sort of pattern as the Greeks *I think* happened pretty late in the Republican period. The Romans also went one step further and adopted into their pantheon numerous gods from other pantheons of other cultures that they accumulated as they expanded, to a degree not really seen in other cultures...particularly when they did not have an equivalent god, or conversely, when a deity *did* resemble a deity they already had (and had a really cool associated practice). Really Roman deities have a pretty tangled sort of origin coming from a combination of their practice of deifying ancestors, adopting foreign deities, integrating myths and attributes of foreign deities, separating different 'aspects' of a deity into its own form for worship. An example of a Roman deity (and one you probably have never heard of) can be found here.

          I've never been interested in the recon aspect of the religion, but I have a good interest in Roman deities...
          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
          sigpic

          Comment


            #20
            Re: Greek vs Roman pantheons



            This is a pretty good article describing some of the differences. Enjoy at your leasure. I would like to say that yes the Greeks believed in the afterlife, they where not concerned with it as much as the Romans. The greeks instead focused on the here and now. That is not to say that they were oblivious to life after death, they just did not worry about their final destination as much as the Romans. Of course alot of this is speculation because the culture of the ancient Greeks has been dead for quite sometime. I will try to get other sources and share at a later date.
            SPQR

            Comment


              #21
              Re: Greek vs Roman pantheons

              I've heard it argued both ways. One adherent of the Roman religion I spoke with made an example of the difference between Ares and Mars. The Roman Mars was much more of an idealization of strength and manly virtue, and was even associated with agriculture to a certain extent. The perception the Greeks had of Ares was more brutal.

              The influence of Etruscans is also worth noting. On one hand, Jupiter and Zeus do seem to have similar roles, but the Etruscan God of lightning, Tinia, was also identified with Zeus. Even the Etruscans became a bit Hellenized, so it's almost impossible to go back to a time with zero Greek syncretism in Italy. In my opinion, some of the deities were equated with one another for good reason. It's up to the individual to decide how much of the differences to chalk up to perception though, and whether or not a different perception suggests an entirely different God.

              If you want to be thought intelligent, just agree with everyone.

              Comment


                #22
                Re: Greek vs Roman pantheons

                Very well put. Thank you for your responce. You are absolutely correct in my opinion.
                SPQR

                Comment


                  #23
                  Re: Greek vs Roman pantheons

                  Originally posted by volcaniclastic View Post
                  Okay, so...

                  I've read through this whole thread twice, and I'm still confused. IS there a difference between the grecian pantheon and the roman pantheon, besides the difference in quantity of gods?

                  How is Jupiter difference than Zeus? How is Diana different than Artemis, Bacchus from Dionysus, etc?
                  The differences vary. Minerva, for example, is different from Athene in that Minerva's spheres of influence include medicine and music, whereas in the Hellenic pantheon, that's in the domain of Apollon, the Mousai, Asklepios, and potentially other deities (acceptable forms of Hellenic "magic" seems to have been primarily herbal, and the ancient Hellenic cult of Kirke existed on the "Phamoukossai Isles", or "the Witch-Islands" -- the root shares is the same as the modern English "Pharmacist", so it would be not-unreasonable to honour Kirke and Her mother, Hekate, as having domain over herbal medicines). Mars, unlike Ares, is an agricultural deity. These are just two examples.

                  Diana and Jupiter, on the other hand, seem almost indistinguishable from Artemis and Zeus -- and Apollo wasn't even honoured in Rome until they absorbed Hellenic narrative mythology and decided that they liked Apollon enough to Romanise Him. Due to absorbing Hellenic narratives, there are also some deities that have become very hard to distinguish their pre-Hellenic attributes from.

                  It's also true that Romans had deities for literally *everything*, and this may have inspired Babylon 5 writers to the line by the already-Roman-inspired Centauri ambassador, Londo Mollari's line:

                  "Gods by the bushel, gods by the pound! When every day is a fight for survival, you need all the gods you can get."

                  ...of course, for all I know, that may be an ancient quote I just haven't sourced yet.

                  The Hellenic afterlife was also, typically, a part of mystery traditions -- like Orphics or Pythagoreans -- and didn't become a mainstreamed part of the religion until later, with some exceptions: It seems generally agreed that, for the most part, if you lived a decent life that was neither especially good nor especially wicked, you had a rather plain, but decent afterlife -- much like the Jewish afterlife. Those especially wicked, according to some local traditions, were punished according to their ill deeds, and those who were especially "heroic" resided in the Isles of the Blessed. "Heroic", in this sense, doesn't necessarily mean "war hero" or similar, but more like "one whose life has benefitted the generations" -- in the traditions of Thespiae, Narkissos is regarded as "heros" because His story serves as a morality tale. A famous actor or athlete who died at the peak of their career may have also been given that honour -- and those who won Olympic sporting events were also given hero cultus. Honouring one's ancestors was also a part of the household practises, but this really cannot be compared to the Roman tradition of Lares, which are probably better compared to Hellenic Daimones.
                  Of Thespiae

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Re: Greek vs Roman pantheons

                    Well, Artemis wasn't the Goddess of the moon, and Apollo wasn't the God of the sun until the Romans worshiped him.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Re: Greek vs Roman pantheons

                      Originally posted by Catdemon-Ninja View Post
                      Well, Artemis wasn't the Goddess of the moon, and Apollo wasn't the God of the sun until the Romans worshiped him.

                      There was a certain extent to which the later Greeks did conflate Artemis with Selene and Apollo with Helios, so that didn't originate with the Romans, but it was a lot less prevalent than often thought.
                      Memories of Pain and Light: http://painandlight.wordpress.com

                      "Hey love, I am a constant satellite of your blazing sun; my love, I obey your law of gravity, this is the fate you've carved on me, the law of gravity..." -Vienna Teng, Gravity

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Re: Greek vs Roman pantheons

                        Originally posted by perzephone View Post
                        I think it's not so much their individual spheres of influence that are different, but how they are perceived by Their various cultures. Dionysus was a foreign God to the Greeks, a young mad God, sort of dangerous and unpredictable. Bacchus is this jolly old lecherous drunkard, far more familiar and comfortable as a drinking buddy.
                        A friend of mine is a dedicant of Dionysus and has studies his mythology and history considerably. Another area of difference between Greek and Roman interpretations of the deity is that the Romans split Dionysus' person into two different gods--Bacchus and Liber. Bacchus became, as you noted, the jolly drunkard-god; Liber took on the facets of Dionysus as liberator, saviour, and madness-inducing wild-god.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Re: Greek vs Roman pantheons

                          Originally posted by Louisvillian View Post
                          A friend of mine is a dedicant of Dionysus and has studies his mythology and history considerably. Another area of difference between Greek and Roman interpretations of the deity is that the Romans split Dionysus' person into two different gods--Bacchus and Liber. Bacchus became, as you noted, the jolly drunkard-god; Liber took on the facets of Dionysus as liberator, saviour, and madness-inducing wild-god.
                          Bacchus is actually an alternate Greek name (Bakkhos) for Dionysus that was more prevalent among Romans, kind of like Aphrodite was also called Cytherea or Kypris.

                          I think the Romans had Greek influence from the beginning, especially indirectly through the Etruscans. Zeus/Jupiter and Dione/Diana/Juno all come from the same Indo-European root, so they were always related. I had a Romanist professor explain that Mercury was just the Roman name for Hermes, as the Romans hadn't worshiped that deity before they started incorporating Greek culture more explicitly. Apollo of course is Greek in origin, as well. Many of the deities may have started out unique from their Greek counterparts, but did assimilate to the Greek pantheon eventually. Venus is an example that stands out, as originally the deity was a minor fertility spirit of gardens with a masculine name, but eventually became the goddess of desire, beauty and procreation who shared many of Aphrodite's major titles in Rome, one of the most important being "Birth-Giver" (Gentrix in Latin, and Genetyllis in Greek), from whom the Julii family of Caesar claimed to be descended.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Re: Greek vs Roman pantheons

                            Huh, I know a group of riders known as Bacchus MC, never knew it was a greek god.
                            White and Red 'till I'm cold and dead.
                            sigpic
                            In Days of yore,
                            From Britain's shore
                            Wolfe the dauntless hero came
                            And planted firm Britannia's flag
                            On Canada's fair domain.
                            Here may it wave,
                            Our boast, our pride
                            And joined in love together,
                            The thistle, shamrock, rose entwined,
                            The Maple Leaf Forever.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Re: Greek vs Roman pantheons

                              UPG
                              I feel dirty calling Dionysus Pater Liber during rituals or prayers. I just feel like Pater Liber is more stoic (if that's possible) than Dionysus. Typically I call Him Dionysus Dionysos or Bakkhos. On the other hand when I pray to most other gods I use the Greek and Roman names interchangeably. Zeus could just as easily be called Iupiter in my book.

                              Personally I like to believe that the Greeks and Romans worshiped the same gods just in slightly different forms. The best example was already given. Mars to the Romans was the supreme example of what a man should be. Men should be farmers working to better the state through labor but in times of war they should be courageous self sacrificing warriors ready to lay down their lives for their country. Ares was basically just overly simplified by the Greeks as a god of carnage and atrocity.

                              The main thing I've noticed that is different between the two pantheons is the emphasis on the state. The Greeks despite being fragmented had a relatively collective view of the gods. All the gods could just as easily help Thebes as the could Athens. The Romans portrayed the gods as being more specific and more beneficial to Rome. Each deity was integrated into the well being of the city. Iuno (Hera), Mars (Ares), Minerva (Athena), Venus (Aphrodite) and many other deities took up arms in the defense of Republic and Empire.

                              Another difference in the religion that I've noticed is that the Romans seem to be more animistic than the Greeks. Each household basically had its own pantheon or lares penates and genii. Not only did the homes have these spirits but public buildings, cities, trees, mountains etc all had guardian spirits. Heck even roads had spirits. This gives us a glimpse into what legend tells us was the original faith of the Romans under King Numa. If we accept that as true then it's easy to assume that later on when the Romans mingled with the Greeks and discovered the idea of anthropomorphic deities these various spirits were just condensed into gods. That's where we get seemingly trivial gods like Fabulina, Imporcitor and Conditor.

                              Another interesting thing to note is the Romans didn't typically invoke the big deities except for matters of state. Most everyday Romans prayed to their family pantheon of various spirits and ancestors and the minor deities like the ones listed above. Of course in our modern times everyone would rather send a prayer to Iupiter than to the spirit of the doorway.

                              In my personal practice I give the necessary offerings to the big gods but save real prayer for Dionysus and the spirits.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Re: Greek vs Roman pantheons

                                (Just my two cents, so no offense to any Roman reconstructionists.)


                                Rome really screwed up when they ripped off the Greek mythos(didn't help that they were hostile to Greece either, its like saying "Yeah, I copied your mythology but I'm still better than you") and made it more politically oriented(Greek paganism as actually more on the personal side).

                                Then there is the massacre of the early Christians, which is kind of against most Pagan morals in my opinion, I understand that this was a different time but the Greeks managed to avoid what the Romans did. Plus, Rome served as a role model for the Christians before and during the Crusades and guess what happened as a result - a lust for domination, a join or die attitude and even ethnic cleansing(of Pagans, Muslims and Jews). Yeah, Rome is gets more credit than it deserves.

                                (Again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone, as I did not mean to.)
                                "As long as humans continue to be the ruthless destroyer of other beings, we will never know health or peace. For as long as people massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, those who sow the seed of murder and pain will never reap joy or love." - Pythagoras


                                "I too shall lie in the dust when I am dead, but now let me win noble renown." - Homer, The Iliad

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X