13 year old girl says 'I consented'

[iflewoverthecuckoosnest]

Re: 13 year old girl says 'I consented'

Some kids are naive, some are victims. Others, not so much.

By 13, I knew where babies came from & knew I didn't want any. I also knew about STIs & how to prevent them. When I was 8, my mother handed me The Teenaged Body Book after she discovered me discovering myself, and I took it as a sign that sex was awesome & should be explored.

By the time I was 13, I was a sexual predator of people two to three times my age. I came on to everyone I wasn't related to - and a surprising number of them said yes. All of the people I had sex with before I hit 16 were technically rapists. None of them were ever charged with it, I never blew my cool or ratted anyone out. I was discrete. I bought condoms, lube, knew where Planned Parenthood was & got birth control all on my own. I never got pregnant & always got clean check-ups.

For the curious, I was never molested or raped as a child (and if I was, I don't remember it at all)... I was just extremely horny.

Some 27 years later, I have no regrets - it was all good clean fun. Even though my experiences were relatively safe, sane & consensual, I don't think it's behavior that should be condoned because the potential for abuse is too great.

You are definitely an exception. When I was around that age my best friend started getting messed with by our 24 year old neighbor. She was 13, naive, VERY low on self esteem, and probably just wanted someone to love her. She was definitely not in charge of her own sexuality. It was pretty sad to watch. Years later, he's on trail for doing the same shit with his daughter.
I agree with Medusa and the last bit of your post about not condoning this behavior; as adults, we can't possibly know what level a 13 year old is on sexually. Any adult who will have sex with a sexually aware 13 year old will also molest one. I think it's sick behavior on the part of the adult no matter what the case.
I'm glad that your early experiences were not damaging to you, but the adults who had sex with you were pretty messed up. You were the exception. Most of the kids they had sex with probably weren't, and I'm sure it screwed many of them up. Adults shouldn't be messing with kids. They simply shouldn't.

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I say, yes, a 13 year old is old enough to consent to sex. And I think this is exactly our problem with early teenage sex... many societies like to think that they aren't old enough, and so don't think to educate them. 13 year olds have a sexual drive... even if you weren't having sex, how many of you were masturbating at 13? We'll throw into that sexual drive today's media, celebrities and sexualisation of girls and 'sex' is a lot more acceptable to a 13 year old nowdays than it was even when I was 13.

There are enough sexually active and pregnant 13 year olds in the world to suggest that 13 years olds are more than capable of consent. And the consequences? At 13, understanding consequences is more about education than age. I understood the consequences when I was 13... because I'd already been through 2-3 years of sex-ed, had 'the talk' and discussed it with my friends. At 13 I was old enough NOT to consent when my 13 year old 'boyfriend' wanted to do more than kiss. The decision not to consent is, in many cases, just a complex as the decision to consent.

I think we need to give kids more credit. Yes, they are not fully developed human beings. Yes, their brains are not capable of a lot of the complex decision making and forward planning that adult brains are. But you know what? Pre-teens actually have more of that than teenagers do. I have more faith in an educated 13 year old than I do in an educated 15 year old. I think we need to wake up and stop treating kids like glass baubles incapable of independent thought. Just because they can't think like adults doesn't mean they can't think.

I think the point is more that the average adult tends to be much more capable of understanding sexuality than the average 13 year old. It's not that 13 year olds never have sex drives or are curious about sex, it's the context of the situation. A kid masturbating is not being taken advantage of. A kid being sexually touched by an adult is probably being taken advantage of.

[MaskedOne]

Re: 13 year old girl says 'I consented'

I say, yes, a 13 year old is old enough to consent to sex. And I think this is exactly our problem with early teenage sex... many societies like to think that they aren't old enough, and so don't think to educate them. 13 year olds have a sexual drive... even if you weren't having sex, how many of you were masturbating at 13? We'll throw into that sexual drive today's media, celebrities and sexualisation of girls and 'sex' is a lot more acceptable to a 13 year old nowdays than it was even when I was 13.

There are enough sexually active and pregnant 13 year olds in the world to suggest that 13 years olds are more than capable of consent. And the consequences? At 13, understanding consequences is more about education than age. I understood the consequences when I was 13... because I'd already been through 2-3 years of sex-ed, had 'the talk' and discussed it with my friends. At 13 I was old enough NOT to consent when my 13 year old 'boyfriend' wanted to do more than kiss. The decision not to consent is, in many cases, just a complex as the decision to consent.

I think we need to give kids more credit. Yes, they are not fully developed human beings. Yes, their brains are not capable of a lot of the complex decision making and forward planning that adult brains are. But you know what? Pre-teens actually have more of that than teenagers do. I have more faith in an educated 13 year old than I do in an educated 15 year old. I think we need to wake up and stop treating kids like glass baubles incapable of independent thought. Just because they can't think like adults doesn't mean they can't think.

This is mostly why I'm tolerant of laws where age of consent is flexible until one reaches their majority. If the specific case here were a 13 year old and a 15 year old then I'd say take the kid at her word and move on. Where I take issue is 13 and 21. A 13 year old may be equipped to handle a relationship with another minor but even granting that this 21 year old coach strikes me as an idiot, I don't particularly want to open any more doors than we already have for adult predators to target minors.

[Rae'ya]

Re: 13 year old girl says 'I consented'

I think the point is more that the average adult tends to be much more capable of understanding sexuality than the average 13 year old. It's not that 13 year olds never have sex drives or are curious about sex, it's the context of the situation. A kid masturbating is not being taken advantage of. A kid being sexually touched by an adult is probably being taken advantage of.

The question was not about adults having sex with kids. The question was (directly quoted) "Can a 13 year old consent to sex? Take the legal part out. I mean, is a 13 year old capable mentally of consenting?". Nothing about the age of the partner in there. You think 13 year olds aren't having sex with 13 year olds?

[iflewoverthecuckoosnest]

Re: 13 year old girl says 'I consented'

The question was not about adults having sex with kids. The question was (directly quoted) "Can a 13 year old consent to sex? Take the legal part out. I mean, is a 13 year old capable mentally of consenting?". Nothing about the age of the partner in there. You think 13 year olds aren't having sex with 13 year olds?

Oh, well, I was answering in the context of this particular case. I think that a 13 year old could consent with another young teenager. 13 and 21, though? Fat chance.

[MaskedOne]

Re: 13 year old girl says 'I consented'

The question was not about adults having sex with kids. The question was (directly quoted) "Can a 13 year old consent to sex? Take the legal part out. I mean, is a 13 year old capable mentally of consenting?". Nothing about the age of the partner in there. You think 13 year olds aren't having sex with 13 year olds?

There was more than one question. One of the questions was a flat consent question, another reflected the age difference.

[Rae'ya]

Re: 13 year old girl says 'I consented'

This is mostly why I'm tolerant of laws where age of consent is flexible until one reaches their majority. If the specific case here were a 13 year old and a 15 year old then I'd say take the kid at her word and move on. Where I take issue is 13 and 21. A 13 year old may be equipped to handle a relationship with another minor but even granting that this 21 year old coach strikes me as an idiot, I don't particularly want to open any more doors than we already have for adult predators to target minors.

This is why Medusa specifically asked is to take the legal considerations out of it and talk about the MENTAL age of consent. We aren't talking legal age of consent here (which I believe should stay where it is, except that I feel an 18yo and a 21yo should be legally allowed to have a relationship). We're talking about a 13 year old kids ability to make a decision about sex for his or herself. I have specifically left out any consideration for the age of the partner and addressed the original question as it stands. Mental age of consent.

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There was more than one question. One of the questions was a flat consent question, another reflected the age difference.

Hey that's true. I didn't see that one.

My answer to that one is 'no'. But to the first question. Yes.

[MaskedOne]

Re: 13 year old girl says 'I consented'

Coolness, we have common ground.

[Medusa]

Re: 13 year old girl says 'I consented'

The question was not about adults having sex with kids. The question was (directly quoted) "Can a 13 year old consent to sex? Take the legal part out. I mean, is a 13 year old capable mentally of consenting?". Nothing about the age of the partner in there. You think 13 year olds aren't having sex with 13 year olds?

I think after reading your reply in the contraception thread and how kids where you live are given sex education, you have different kids then we have here. Our American kids are literally dumb as rocks. The new craze is to douse yourself with rubbing alcohol while standing in a shower, set yourself on fire and then try to water it out.

[Rae'ya]

Re: 13 year old girl says 'I consented'

Oh, well, I was answering in the context of this particular case. I think that a 13 year old could consent with another young teenager. 13 and 21, though? Fat chance.

I apologise, I hadn't seen the later question Medusa asked "So can they make an adult decision such as deciding to sleep with a 21 year old?" I was addressing the first question and not this one.

Is a 13 year old capable of a decision to sleep with a 21 year old. On the surface 'no'. But realistically, I actually think 'yes'. They just don't necessarily have the understanding to realise that a 21 year old is probably taking advantage of them rather than approaching them as an equal (as in the case of 13yo + 13/14/15yo). The decision to consent is actually still the same, but the ability to distinguish between 'really likes me' and 'pedophile' is probably not there.

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I think after reading your reply in the contraception thread and how kids where you live are given sex education, you have different kids then we have here. Our American kids are literally dumb as rocks. The new craze is to douse yourself with rubbing alcohol while standing in a shower, set yourself on fire and then try to water it out.

Maybe we do. Our kids are dumb, but they aren't dumb as that.

And honestly... I think our 15yo's are dumber than our 13yo's. I'd trust a 13yo before I trusted a 15yo. Mid-teens actually lose their ability to make rational decisions (it's actually been demonstrated with psychological testing). Pre-teens without peer-pressure are actually not that dumb when you talk to them.

A topic for another thread... how much is this about education? How much is it about the way that we are dumbing down our own kids?

[Medusa]

Re: 13 year old girl says 'I consented'

I agree. 11 year old girls are extremely bright. 13 they become walking cunts.

[MaskedOne]

Re: 13 year old girl says 'I consented'

There was an odd article I saw somewhere regarding that. It was mostly to the effect of, teens do have a certain logic and they actually acknowledge risks more than people give them credit for but they assign greater weight to potential benefits than anyone not a teenager considers sane and healthy.

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not that the distinction necessarily matters when the results suck but it was an amusing read

[Rae'ya]

Re: 13 year old girl says 'I consented'

There was an odd article I saw somewhere regarding that. It was mostly to the effect of, teens do have a certain logic and they actually acknowledge risks more than people give them credit for but they assign greater weight to potential benefits than anyone not a teenager considers sane and healthy.

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not that the distinction necessarily matters when the results suck but it was an amusing read

I've read some stuff hypothesising about how it relates to exploratory stages and how our brain goes through developmental stages that optimise the potential for certain life experiences... similar to how a one year old brain thinks differently to a three year old brain... that is still all happening throughout the teenage years.

What I am interested in is how modern society has changed the social context of a 13year old, and what impact that may have had on the developmental brain stage. A few hundred years ago, 13 year old girls were married, probably pregnant with their first or second kid and in charge of starting and running a household. When I was 13 I was left at home in charge of my sister and three cousins, wandering the streets of town with my best friend, cooking for my family and in charge of most of the chores. Nowdays we're trying to keep 13year olds as innocent children far longer than they are naturally inclined to be. How much of our interferance and lack of educating and teaching them responsibilities is actually hindering their development? And bringing this back to the OP and Medusa's more recent comment about Aus kids vs US kids... if we aren't teaching our kids about sex ed and actively encouraging them to be responsible people, how does that effect their ability to make these decisions? It makes the question much more difficult to answer from a hardline point of '13 year old' if 13 year olds are not all the same the world over.

[Ophidia]

Re: 13 year old girl says 'I consented'

I'm glad that your early experiences were not damaging to you, but the adults who had sex with you were pretty messed up. You were the exception. Most of the kids they had sex with probably weren't, and I'm sure it screwed many of them up. Adults shouldn't be messing with kids. They simply shouldn't.

To be fair to most of my partners at the time... Discussions of age didn't come into it much. I busted out w/boobs & hips & thighs around 11. My aunt was a cosmetician, so I learned how to use make-up & do my hair. My aunt also wanted me to be a debutante or some crap, so I had some relatively dressy clothes & shoes. I think that if a young hot girl rubs up against a man, and he's open to her advances, he's not immediately going to think, 'Holy crap, this chick's like, 13". And a few of my partners actually threw me out of their vehicles, homes & hotel rooms when the truth about my age came out. I wasn't going after my school teachers or family friends - I was after radio DJs & local musicians, because, hey, backstage passes, concert tickets & access to alcohol.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: 13 year old girl says 'I consented'

What I am interested in is how modern society has changed the social context of a 13year old, and what impact that may have had on the developmental brain stage. A few hundred years ago, 13 year old girls were married, probably pregnant with their first or second kid and in charge of starting and running a household. When I was 13 I was left at home in charge of my sister and three cousins, wandering the streets of town with my best friend, cooking for my family and in charge of most of the chores. Nowdays we're trying to keep 13year olds as innocent children far longer than they are naturally inclined to be.

Good point, and the extension of "age of adulthood" is ever-expanding. My parents were 21 and 23 when they got married in 1956. They were complete adults - working, keeping house, having me a year later. I was on my own at 22. Nowadays many people live "home" well into their 30's, and put off marriage, even if they want kids.

[MoonRaven]

Re: 13 year old girl says 'I consented'

I'll just provide some Danish context. Here age of sexual majority is 15, average age for first intercourse is sixteen-point-something-or-other, but that children/teenagers have a sexuality and kiss/cuddle/make out/masturbate is not only accepted but expected.
So for me a 13 yo having sex wouldn't cause that much of a raised eyebrow (it's a bit unusual, but no more than that), but the part where the other party involved is 21 would cause far more than a lifted eyebrow (and not just because it's illegal, an 8 year age gap....). And the fact that he's her coach has me up in arms (he's in a position of power and trust). That last part makes me not care if the girls is 13 or 21, the fact that he's her trainer puts her in a position where she might legitimately feel she can't say no.