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Is it a good idea to invoke Saint Michael?

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    #31
    Re: Is it a good idea to invoke Saint Michael?

    Originally posted by anunitu View Post
    Welcome to "Where everyone knows your name".............NORM!!!!!
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    Comment


      #32
      Re: Is it a good idea to invoke Saint Michael?

      Originally posted by Pathway Machine View Post
      I'm writing a book about Superman but I don't believe the DC comics are a reliable resource so I'm just going to make shit up as I go using the name of Superman. Does that make sense?

      Michael is Jesus.
      While I see what you are trying to accomplish here, and to trigger off a debate about this, keep in mind that you have resurrected a thread that had been inactive since December, and you had done so in a rather condescending and insulting manner. Following that, and ignoring your further your attempt to completely derail this thread from it's original course, I'm going to actually give a response to what you initially wrote based off of the quote.

      There is quite a bit more incorporated within the Abrahamic mythos than can be simply would within the pages of the Bible, both the New and Old Testament. Some of these things are the ranking of various forms of angels, interactions with those that had fallen, the mention and usage of magics, and all sorts of things that would seem strange and "forbidden" if just the writings within the Bible were considered. From those concepts, it is very simple to apply the basic formulae of spellwork, witchcraft, and ritual. For example, in the act of casting a circle, a Christian witch (or whatever label that is used) would call upon the Archangels (Michael, Gabriel, Uriel, and Raphael) for the Quarters rather than forces of nature. Also, keep in mind that there are religions that are quasi-Abrahamic in nature, that call upon the Roman Catholic saints, such as Santeria, that very much incorporate magic and witchcraft in their practices.

      Now, as Thalassa mentioned, the Bible, in it's own way, supports the idea that it is a book by Man about God. Many of the stories, teachings, and parables are either prefaced of footnoted by a statement of "the Gospel according to <enter name here>" which is indicative of it being the interpretation of Man. Keep in mind as well that much of various pagan beliefs function around UPG, and if that works for one faith there is no reason that it cannot work for another, regardless of how well "established" it has become. It is also generally accepted that God, big "G" little "od", is specifically used in reference to the Abrahamic deity, while little "god" is used for all the other divine beings out there and is the generic term.

      As a statement "Michael is Jesus", you are wrong, at least as far as writings, clergy, and the teachings of two thousand years go. Michael is the warrior Archangel, while Jesus is the son of God.

      Now, if you'd like to continue to debate things of this nature, feel free but keep a few things in mind please. 1) Keep it in line of the thread's topic as if the OP does return at some point he or she may wish to revisit this thread and to find it having turned into something totally different can be frustrating. 1a) If you feel the need to diverge it, start a new thread to continue. and 2) Do so in a polite, respectful manner rather than the way in which you have to this point. Debating something doesn't mean you have to be an ass.

      Comment


        #33
        Re: Is it a good idea to invoke Saint Michael?

        While I'm inclined to reject the premise of Michael = Jesus and think Michael would reject it emphatically. It isn't a completely unheard of idea



        The Jehovah's witnesses tend to go with that interpretation.
        life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

        Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

        "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

        John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

        "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

        Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


        Comment


          #34
          Re: Is it a good idea to invoke Saint Michael?

          Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
          While I'm inclined to reject the premise of Michael = Jesus and think Michael would reject it emphatically. It isn't a completely unheard of idea





          The Jehovah's witnesses tend to go with that interpretation.

          I'm always sort of surprised when Michael being Jesus is something unheard of questioned.


          Are there any others who believe Michael and Jesus are the same? Yes, there are many. Joseph Benson, E. W. Hengstenberg, J. P. Lange, Butterworth, Cruden, Taylor, Guyse all wrote that Michael and Jesus were the same.


          Clarke's Commentary (Adam Clarke) - "Let it be observed that the word archangel is never found in the plural number in the sacred writings. There can be properly only one archangel, one chief or head of all the angelic host .... Michael is this archangel, and head of all the angelic orders .... hence by this personage, in the Apocalypse, many understand the Lord Jesus."


          W. E. Vine - the "voice of the archangel" (1 Thessalonians 4:16) is apparently "the voice of the Lord Jesus Christ" - An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, page 64.


          The 1599 Geneva Study Bible: "Christ is the Prince of angels and head of the Church, who bears that iron rod."


          The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia: - "The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in Rev. 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel" – vol. 3, page 2048, Eerdmans Publishing, 1984 printing.


          John Calvin: "I embrace the opinion of those who refer this to the person of Christ, because it suits the subject best to represent him as standing forward for the defense of his elect people." - J. Calvin, Commentaries On The Book Of The Prophet Daniel, trans. T. Myers (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1979), vol. 2 page 369.


          The NIV Study Bible - "The Angel of the LORD .... Traditional Christian interpretation has held that this 'angel' was a preincarnate manifestation of Christ as God's Messenger-Servant. It may be ..., the angel could speak on behalf of the One who sent him." - footnote for Gen. 16:7. Zondervan Publishing, 1985


          Smith's Bible Dictionary (says of Michael) - "Angel of the Lord. ... Christ's visible form before the incarnation." Page 40.


          Today's Dictionary of the Bible - "Angel of the Lord [angel of Jehovah] - occurs many times in the Old Testament, where in almost every instance it means a supernatural personage to be distinguished from Jehovah .... Some feel the pre-incarnate Christ is meant." Bethany House Publ., 1982, page 39.

          Comment


            #35
            Re: Is it a good idea to invoke Saint Michael?

            The idea is still considered to be a heresy in many if not most sects. Heresy isn't always taught early on. I came across the idea a few years ago largely by accident.
            life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

            Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

            "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

            John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

            "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

            Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


            Comment


              #36
              Re: Is it a good idea to invoke Saint Michael?

              Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
              The idea is still considered to be a heresy in many if not most sects. Heresy isn't always taught early on. I came across the idea a few years ago largely by accident.
              Oh, you picked up on the idea on your own? Cool. Does it or does it not make sense to you? It made perfect sense to me. In the Bible Jesus lived in Heaven long before he came here, in fact he was the first of creation and all things, including the angels were created through him. Who else would be God's son and prince of the angels? Other than Jehovah only two people are mentioned as having authority over the angels. Jesus and Micheal.

              I think, maybe, this is just my uninformed opinion, that people reject the idea because Michael and the other fabricated archangels, how many archangels can you have? arch meaning above all others, but these other angels and Michael are considered to be some other personality they don't associate with Jesus. That's obvious, isn't it. What I mean is that they don't associate them as being the same. They picture them in their mind as different and so you can't convince them otherwise.

              - - - Updated - - -

              Munin-Hugin, my first reaction to your post was anger, so I decided to step back and think about it, which I did. Some time later I realized you were right. I should have been more considerate and respectful in expressing my opinion. I apologize and will try to do better in the future. Thanks for the advise.

              Comment


                #37
                Re: Is it a good idea to invoke Saint Michael?

                I understand the pieces of the argument that I've seen. I don't consider them to necessarily be compelling. I tend to think that the lore around Michael works just as well with Michael and Christ as separate and I've yet to see a need to combine them. With that said, I'm not a scholar of Christian theology so I may be missing arguments for or against. Christian theology is one of about a dozen subjects that I know just enough about to have an idea where to start looking for more if I become curious.
                life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                Comment


                  #38
                  Re: Is it a good idea to invoke Saint Michael?

                  Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
                  I understand the pieces of the argument that I've seen. I don't consider them to necessarily be compelling. I tend to think that the lore around Michael works just as well with Michael and Christ as separate and I've yet to see a need to combine them. With that said, I'm not a scholar of Christian theology so I may be missing arguments for or against. Christian theology is one of about a dozen subjects that I know just enough about to have an idea where to start looking for more if I become curious.
                  Not that this is an argument for it, but to me it was always cool that Jesus, as John 1:1 points out, being the "Word" i.e. spokesman for Jehovah, would have been the most likely candidate for being the angels who, in the past (in the so-called Old Testament of more accurately the Hebrew / Aramaic scripture), came down as a messenger (The Hebrew word for angel literally means "messenger"). It was very likely Jesus leading Israel out of Egypt, Wrestling with Jacob, one of those in Sodom who visited Lot, etc.

                  Comment

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