Why capitalism must go and how to get there.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Why capitalism must go and how to get there.

There have been many good ideas for society, both real and fictional. But the Federation will encounter Klingons, no matter what. It isn't just corruption of the system that goes awry - it's those individuals who can't see past the next day/dollar, or who want to be in charge at any cost, who believe that everyone else is wrong, and who just want to fight.

Look at the internet, for example - you're going along fine, then - BOOM - trolls!

[anunitu]

Re: Why capitalism must go and how to get there.

Thanks MO,it seems you have saved my Bacon bits again..

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Why capitalism must go and how to get there.

2. An individual would have to be groomed and brainwashed to think that they must serve only the greater good of humanity, that personal is not the same as important, and to never take advice without thought and care.

Any system requiring "brainwashing" is worse than any system it would replace.

Who would be in control?

What happens to those who perversely resist the brainwashing?

The "purges" mentioned earlier seem like they would become typical...

[LunarHarvest]

Re: Why capitalism must go and how to get there.

Also, what do you mean by "socialism"? Socialism is an umbrella term with a lot of diverse ideas and systems under its belt. Communism is a form of socialism. Social democracy (think Sweden in the 1970s) is a form of socialism. Eco-socialism is a form of socialism.

On that note, Socialism is merely an economic ideology. Not a political one, in the sense that it has little to nothing to say about the organisation of the state itself. Within this, you have many political theories that have come to accompany Socialism. Some advocate a literal dictatorship through a vanguard of Platonic-esque "enlightened individuals" (Marxist-Leninism), while the most popular forms in Western Europe and the States advocate a democratic, elected state (Democratic Socialism), and some Socialist political theories advocate no proper state whatsoever (Anarcho-Syndicalism).

Even within the economic views of Socialists there is significant variances. Some want a completely state-run economy (State Socialism), some want a mixed market of public and private ownership of the economy, or no government ownership (Market Socialism), and some want to eliminate the structure of the market entirely for a commune-based economy.

There are many ways of organising a Socialist state without resorting to total nationalisation of the economy, or to a political dictatorship of a single person or party.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Why capitalism must go and how to get there.

On that note, Socialism is merely an economic ideology. Not a political one, in the sense that it has little to nothing to say about the organisation of the state itself. Within this, you have many political theories that have come to accompany Socialism. Some advocate a literal dictatorship through a vanguard of Platonic-esque "enlightened individuals" (Marxist-Leninism), while the most popular forms in Western Europe and the States advocate a democratic, elected state (Democratic Socialism), and some Socialist political theories advocate no proper state whatsoever (Anarcho-Syndicalism).

Even within the economic views of Socialists there is significant variances. Some want a completely state-run economy (State Socialism), some want a mixed market of public and private ownership of the economy, or no government ownership (Market Socialism), and some want to eliminate the structure of the market entirely for a commune-based economy.

There are many ways of organising a Socialist state without resorting to total nationalisation of the economy, or to a political dictatorship of a single person or party.

Exactly. There are so many levels.

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Any system requiring "brainwashing" is worse than any system it would replace.

Who would be in control?

What happens to those who perversely resist the brainwashing?

The "purges" mentioned earlier seem like they would become typical...

I would also be very, very wary of a brainwashed leader programmed to only think a certain way because there are so many nuances to human issues. You need discretion. A leader has to be able to think for him/herself and think on his/her feet. A brainwashed leader would be like being ruled by a computer.

Edit: for example, look at murder vs. war vs. capital punishment. We say killing is "wrong", but we support it on some level. Now, every single one of us has clear ideas of when it is and isn't ok to kill another human being, but a) those views differ a lot from person to person, even within the same culture and b) I think all of us have seen some sort of situation that has challenged our views (like, I'm strongly against capital punishment, but I honestly can't say I wouldn't execute Hitler or Stalin). If you're brainwashed, how to use discretion in such a complex situation?

[Gleb]

Re: Why capitalism must go and how to get there.

On that note, Socialism is merely an economic ideology. Not a political one, in the sense that it has little to nothing to say about the organisation of the state itself. Within this, you have many political theories that have come to accompany Socialism. Some advocate a literal dictatorship through a vanguard of Platonic-esque "enlightened individuals" (Marxist-Leninism), while the most popular forms in Western Europe and the States advocate a democratic, elected state (Democratic Socialism), and some Socialist political theories advocate no proper state whatsoever (Anarcho-Syndicalism).

Even within the economic views of Socialists there is significant variances. Some want a completely state-run economy (State Socialism), some want a mixed market of public and private ownership of the economy, or no government ownership (Market Socialism), and some want to eliminate the structure of the market entirely for a commune-based economy.

There are many ways of organising a Socialist state without resorting to total nationalisation of the economy, or to a political dictatorship of a single person or party.

Agreed.

Capitalism helps individuals. They build their own industries and factories. And they work for themselves. That's very good.
Personally, I am for capitalism and communism together. Thus, both the state and the individuals will have profit.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Why capitalism must go and how to get there.

Agreed.

Capitalism helps individuals. They build their own industries and factories. And they work for themselves. That's very good.
Personally, I am for capitalism and communism together. Thus, both the state and the individuals will have profit.

Then you're more or less for a northern European model of social democracy.

[anunitu]

Re: Why capitalism must go and how to get there.

A mix of Capitalism with a little socialism works because "True" Capitalism is what happened in US history with the robber barons. It was make money anyway you can and F* everyone else. Why Monopoly laws were put in place.

[Gleb]

Re: Why capitalism must go and how to get there.

Then you're more or less for a northern European model of social democracy.

I am not very familiar with it. Is it bad?

A mix of Capitalism with a little socialism works because "True" Capitalism is what happened in US history with the robber barons. It was make money anyway you can and F* everyone else. Why Monopoly laws were put in place.

Yeah. After mixing the two, I doubt someone will cry for having high taxes... Or at least for shitty economical situation.

[Gardenia]

Re: Why capitalism must go and how to get there.

So while there are some elements of capitalism I wouldn't mind doing away with, or bringing in some ideas from other economic models as was mentioned...

2. An individual would have to be groomed and brainwashed to think that they must serve only the greater good of humanity, that personal is not the same as important, and to never take advice without thought and care.

This sort of thing? Yeah, no thanks. As others have pointed out, there are some serious issues with that. I'm not really pro-brainwashing people.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Why capitalism must go and how to get there.

A mix of Capitalism with a little socialism works because "True" Capitalism is what happened in US history with the robber barons. It was make money anyway you can and F* everyone else. Why Monopoly laws were put in place.

There's capitalism, and there's laissez faire capitalism.

I prefer capitalism with rules.

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This sort of thing? Yeah, no thanks. As others have pointed out, there are some serious issues with that. I'm not really pro-brainwashing people.

Isn't that what religions have been trying to do throughout all of history?

Why would anybody imagine it will work any better done via political power?

[LunarHarvest]

Re: Why capitalism must go and how to get there.

I am not very familiar with it. Is it bad?

Depends on your political outlook.
It tends to advocate for a strong welfare state and tends to be very much in favour of trade unionist policies, but wants to have these things within a Capitalist market economy, although some industries like utilities may be nationalised for the public good.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Why capitalism must go and how to get there.

I am not very familiar with it. Is it bad?

Depends on who you ask. I think it's one of the most viable and fair models available.

To sum it up in a few sentences, it basically involves a strong welfare state full of public services and funding for various activities, but still allows private enterprise and market activities. It is also highly supportive of unions. It still has its problems (and countries that more or less run on this model are also facing a lot of privatization, which IMO is a problem over the long term), but I've never been able to dream up anything better.

[Gleb]

Re: Why capitalism must go and how to get there.

Sounds nice.