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    #16
    Re: Is my God your God, your point of view?

    Originally posted by motherearth View Post
    What is your point of view on God? Is God to you the same God that the rest of the community in your faith/religion share ? Or do you feel the God you believe in differs to the God another person of your faith/religion? (Individual God or some sort of personal God)
    In a sense I suppose this is correct, though not in the sense that would mean that one religion is the same as another, and coming at it from a Shinto perspective. For example, Jesus of Nazareth may not have been the son of God to me, but I will acknowledge that his spirit and thus Kami have been enshrined and revered by more than two billion people. In this way, the Christian Jesus is essentially a Kami, but this changes the nature of the interpretation of Jesus.

    I am pretty sure that the same could be applied to Gods or Goddesses of other religions as well, so I would say that they are largely the same, in terms of the reasoning described above, but that things like interpretation, spiritual beliefs and rituals, to name a few, vary considerably from the original religion.

    I think that should get the general concept across, but I agree that trying to think over all the different religions and Gods and Goddesses hurts my head a little.

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      #17
      Re: Is my God your God, your point of view?

      Originally posted by motherearth View Post
      Hey brothers and sisters, I have always felt a little strange about some things in my path but I want to discuss one factor only, just to be clear I believe in Jesus but don't consider myself a christian rather a follower of Jesus.

      What is your point of view on God? Is God to you the same God that the rest of the community in your faith/religion share ? Or do you feel the God you believe in differs to the God another person of your faith/religion? (Individual God or some sort of personal God)

      I hope the question makes sense ? I am trying to gain better knowledge on this subject.

      Thanks in advance. Love to all
      Maybe you should consider yourself Christian (which means a follower of Jesus) and not a religious person that follows Christian doctrine.

      Everyone has a different perception of God because their personal relationship is unique. This is a major reason why so many young people brought up in the church break away for a time. There is this misconception that because God is unchanging, it also means he's one dimensional. Kids grow up with the perception of God as their parents experience him. Then as they mature, they discover that in order to form their own relationship they must abandon their parents constructs.

      A good example is a parent I know who because of certain life events, he needs an authoritarian figure to feel loved. His relationship with God has an authoritarian aspect to it that his oldest son rejected. It took them years to figure out, and it damaged their relationship with each other.

      We are like God in many ways. The relationship I have with my work colleagues is different to that of my children, and each child is different. Because of this, even though I am one person, their knowledge of who I am will all be different.

      In the same way, God is one and the same, but we all have different perceptions of who he is because our relationships are unique.

      - - - Updated - - -

      Yeah, that pretty much stands in direct opposition to what Jesus claimed. Although you have made a noble attempt at reconciling Yeshua with the concepts of Shinto, they are totally incompatible. It does however expose an aspect of what is called "the offence of the cross".

      Comment


        #18
        Re: Is my God your God, your point of view?

        Originally posted by DON View Post
        Maybe you should consider yourself Christian (which means a follower of Jesus) and not a religious person that follows Christian doctrine.

        Everyone has a different perception of God because their personal relationship is unique. This is a major reason why so many young people brought up in the church break away for a time. There is this misconception that because God is unchanging, it also means he's one dimensional. Kids grow up with the perception of God as their parents experience him. Then as they mature, they discover that in order to form their own relationship they must abandon their parents constructs.

        A good example is a parent I know who because of certain life events, he needs an authoritarian figure to feel loved. His relationship with God has an authoritarian aspect to it that his oldest son rejected. It took them years to figure out, and it damaged their relationship with each other.

        We are like God in many ways. The relationship I have with my work colleagues is different to that of my children, and each child is different. Because of this, even though I am one person, their knowledge of who I am will all be different.

        In the same way, God is one and the same, but we all have different perceptions of who he is because our relationships are unique.

        - - - Updated - - -

        Yeah, that pretty much stands in direct opposition to what Jesus claimed. Although you have made a noble attempt at reconciling Yeshua with the concepts of Shinto, they are totally incompatible. It does however expose an aspect of what is called "the offence of the cross".
        Thanks you for the response, what you're saying makes sense to me. Could you please explain what you mean by "reconciling Yeshua with the concepts of Shinto"? And "the offence of the cross"?

        Thank you for the response Don

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          #19
          Re: Is my God your God, your point of view?

          Originally posted by motherearth View Post
          Thanks you for the response, what you're saying makes sense to me. Could you please explain what you mean by "reconciling Yeshua with the concepts of Shinto"? And "the offence of the cross"?

          Thank you for the response Don

          Don makes sporadic visits, but since I'm not sure when we'll see him next, I can at least answer part of this...though his POV on the matter might differ (and as is common with the Bible and Christianity, he might be talking about something completely different), so my commentary may or may not help.

          The phrase "offense of the cross" is generally a reference to Galatians 5:11 "Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished." (New International Version) (all of Galatians 5 for context), which is conventionally interpreted within most Protestant faiths as commentary on salvation solus Christus, by Christ alone (there are 4 other solas, the 5 of which sum up the Protestant reformation and "protes"t of the Roman Catholic Church). The so-called offense is that one's individual piety and holiness isn't enough to save them from their sins, only faith in Jesus can do that. Personally, I think the "offense of the Cross" is a Pauline example of hypocrisy and its only offense is one of hubris, but that's an unrelated topic (and one of many reasons why I've not been Christian in over 2 decades...).


          I think though, his comment was actually a response to Lunar Harvest's post:

          In a sense I suppose this is correct, though not in the sense that would mean that one religion is the same as another, and coming at it from a Shinto perspective. For example, Jesus of Nazareth may not have been the son of God to me, but I will acknowledge that his spirit and thus Kami have been enshrined and revered by more than two billion people. In this way, the Christian Jesus is essentially a Kami, but this changes the nature of the interpretation of Jesus.

          I am pretty sure that the same could be applied to Gods or Goddesses of other religions as well, so I would say that they are largely the same, in terms of the reasoning described above, but that things like interpretation, spiritual beliefs and rituals, to name a few, vary considerably from the original religion.
          Which, from a conventional Christian POV is a bit heretical. From a non-Christian perspective though, its a legitimate POV. If you aren't Christian, you don't accept the circular authority of the Bible.

          The question is, I think (not one you need to answer for me, but for yourself)...in what ways are you a follower of Jesus? Thomas Jefferson edited his own version of the Bible--took out all the miracles, the resurrection, and in the end, condensed the NT down to 84 pages (and eliminated the OT all together). His view of God was that of a deist. He still considered himself a Christian (though his political opponents did not). The are some 38,000 denominations Christianities among the world's 2+ billion followers--their views on the Bible, on the divinity of Jesus, on the nature of God, on salvation, on the sacraments, etc vary wildly.

          Labels are useful for communication...words express what we are in as a distilled and idealized symbol, but they aren't perfect in expressing the reality of who and what we are. This is true whether the discussion or debate is over how one see's god, or over what religion they identify with (or not).

          I have an analogy that sometimes I like to use to explain the different concepts of deity/deities. If you think of god as a box an atheist is someone that doesn't believe in boxes, an agnostic thinks it can go either way, a polytheist has a pile of boxes, and a monotheist has one box. Some people that believe in their box have an expansive box that has the room to hold millions of boxes in all sizes and shapes and colors...some people have tiny boxes that are lucky to hold anything at all. I believe the Universe itself is a box that takes the shape the Cosmos and holds as many smaller boxes as we can conceive of. I don't believe that all gods are the same god--or even that all the ideations of a god are the same god (perception is reality), but I do believe that Divinity in its entirety has room for all the gods, even the ones of the jealous sort.

          My grandfather (who died a few years ago) was an unorthodox sort of Christian (the kind I like to call a "Gandhi Christian--the ones that strive to emulate the better qualities of Jesus rather than the ones that "so unlike their Christ"), with a line of sayings on the matter of Christianity longer than my arm, and one of his favorite comments (the exact wording varied so that it fit the conversation) was that "God reveals himself in the way that we are capable of understanding" and that there was no view of God that was wrong, so long as it was honest and in keeping with the "betterment of ourselves and the honoring of one another". If you
          Last edited by thalassa; 30 Dec 2014, 06:34. Reason: formatting
          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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            #20
            Re: Is my God your God, your point of view?

            Originally posted by motherearth View Post

            What is your point of view on God? Is God to you the same God that the rest of the community in your faith/religion share ? Or do you feel the God you believe in differs to the God another person of your faith/religion? (Individual God or some sort of personal God)
            My view of the Aesir and Vanir, as well as the other beings is pretty much the same as other Asatruars. The gods and goddesses are real beings with their own personalities, interests and areas of "expertise". Thor is my personal god, protector and friend, and I am his devotee and servant. Most devotees see him pretty much the same: friend, protector, big brother, buddy, very charismatic, down-to-Earth, someone you want to hang out with, and are very happy to do things for.
            śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
            śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

            Comment


              #21
              Re: Is my God your God, your point of view?

              Originally posted by thalassa View Post
              Don makes sporadic visits, but since I'm not sure when we'll see him next, I can at least answer part of this...though his POV on the matter might differ (and as is common with the Bible and Christianity, he might be talking about something completely different), so my commentary may or may not help.

              The phrase "offense of the cross" is generally a reference to Galatians 5:11 "Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished." (New International Version) (all of Galatians 5 for context), which is conventionally interpreted within most Protestant faiths as commentary on salvation solus Christus, by Christ alone (there are 4 other solas, the 5 of which sum up the Protestant reformation and "protes"t of the Roman Catholic Church). The so-called offense is that one's individual piety and holiness isn't enough to save them from their sins, only faith in Jesus can do that. Personally, I think the "offense of the Cross" is a Pauline example of hypocrisy and its only offense is one of hubris, but that's an unrelated topic (and one of many reasons why I've not been Christian in over 2 decades...).


              I think though, his comment was actually a response to Lunar Harvest's post:



              Which, from a conventional Christian POV is a bit heretical. From a non-Christian perspective though, its a legitimate POV. If you aren't Christian, you don't accept the circular authority of the Bible.

              The question is, I think (not one you need to answer for me, but for yourself)...in what ways are you a follower of Jesus? Thomas Jefferson edited his own version of the Bible--took out all the miracles, the resurrection, and in the end, condensed the NT down to 84 pages (and eliminated the OT all together). His view of God was that of a deist. He still considered himself a Christian (though his political opponents did not). The are some 38,000 denominations Christianities among the world's 2+ billion followers--their views on the Bible, on the divinity of Jesus, on the nature of God, on salvation, on the sacraments, etc vary wildly.

              Labels are useful for communication...words express what we are in as a distilled and idealized symbol, but they aren't perfect in expressing the reality of who and what we are. This is true whether the discussion or debate is over how one see's god, or over what religion they identify with (or not).

              I have an analogy that sometimes I like to use to explain the different concepts of deity/deities. If you think of god as a box an atheist is someone that doesn't believe in boxes, an agnostic thinks it can go either way, a polytheist has a pile of boxes, and a monotheist has one box. Some people that believe in their box have an expansive box that has the room to hold millions of boxes in all sizes and shapes and colors...some people have tiny boxes that are lucky to hold anything at all. I believe the Universe itself is a box that takes the shape the Cosmos and holds as many smaller boxes as we can conceive of. I don't believe that all gods are the same god--or even that all the ideations of a god are the same god (perception is reality), but I do believe that Divinity in its entirety has room for all the gods, even the ones of the jealous sort.

              My grandfather (who died a few years ago) was an unorthodox sort of Christian (the kind I like to call a "Gandhi Christian--the ones that strive to emulate the better qualities of Jesus rather than the ones that "so unlike their Christ"), with a line of sayings on the matter of Christianity longer than my arm, and one of his favorite comments (the exact wording varied so that it fit the conversation) was that "God reveals himself in the way that we are capable of understanding" and that there was no view of God that was wrong, so long as it was honest and in keeping with the "betterment of ourselves and the honoring of one another". If you
              Thank you for the detailed explanation. I agree with what you're saying about how we label ourselves but it doesn't say much because it can have a different meaning to someone who uses the exact same label. It is the reason why I don't want to label myself a christian but it becomes a problem because somewhere along the line I'll have to use a term to place myself. Also often times I change in belief and it causes a headache cause for some reason we humans want to stand on solid ground and therefore want to use labels to belong.

              I respect and also believe that there is no view of God that is wrong and that we all experience things differently but that's what made me open this thread to get a better perspective. I feel frustrated when people preach to me how the only way is their way of believing that's why I have a hard time when I visit a Church, aren't we suppose to encourage and love one another. My apologies for the ramble.

              Thanks for the reply Thalassa

              - - - Updated - - -

              Originally posted by Thorbjorn View Post
              My view of the Aesir and Vanir, as well as the other beings is pretty much the same as other Asatruars. The gods and goddesses are real beings with their own personalities, interests and areas of "expertise". Thor is my personal god, protector and friend, and I am his devotee and servant. Most devotees see him pretty much the same: friend, protector, big brother, buddy, very charismatic, down-to-Earth, someone you want to hang out with, and are very happy to do things for.
              Thanks for the post. I can agree with you on how we individually see a God or Goddess in similar ways because of eg. Personality, traits that's how we share our existence. I guess I get confused when reading about all the different denominations and how everybody argues about a certain aspect.

              Thanks again for the response

              Comment


                #22
                Re: Is my God your God, your point of view?

                Originally posted by motherearth View Post
                Thanks for the post. I can agree with you on how we individually see a God or Goddess in similar ways because of eg. Personality, traits that's how we share our existence. I guess I get confused when reading about all the different denominations and how everybody argues about a certain aspect.

                Thanks again for the response
                There's a saying in Avadhi (Asian Indian language) that loosely translates as "Everyone sees God in their own way". I'd put an addendum on that: "And no one should argue about it".
                śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
                śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

                Comment


                  #23
                  Re: Is my God your God, your point of view?

                  This is my personal opinion based upon Biblical study.

                  The thing about god is, that it is just a word that means a person or persons are attributing a might greater than their own or is venerated. Here is an example of a god.

                  A man stumbles over the grass plains. He's alone, cold, exhausted, and very hungry. Its getting dark and he would like a fire to keep the wolves at bay and keep himself warm. Maybe cook something if he can build up the energy to catch it. There is no fuel for a fire for miles. Just green grass. Then he stumbles on something. In what little light there is left he sees its a dried pile of bovine excrement. Bull shit, you might say. Looking around he finds more of it and is able to build a fire. Underneath the excrement he is able to find all sorts of creeping things he can use as food, and now he is safe, warm and fed. On his own he hadn't been any of these things.

                  The dung becomes his god. It saved his life.

                  A god can be anything, or anyone that someone else venerates or attributes a might greater than their own to. It kinda screws up the entire definition of atheism by definition, doesn't it? There are trillions of gods. A god doesn't have to actually exist, nor does one have to attribute might to or venerate it oneself to acknowledge it is a god. Zeus, for example, doesn't exist. I don't believe in Zeus, I don't worship Zeus. Zeus is a god.

                  Most gods, in fact, very nearly all gods, however, have a name. Bull shit mentioned above would be given a name. Perhaps . . . Poopy. Or Stinky Salvation. Then of course it would evolve . . . but I digress.Then the gods have distinct characteristics and personalities. If the god is well documented this limits one in their application of that specific God, at least in an accurate way.

                  Most people take a vague concept of a "God" that is popular to their culture or specific geographical location and, rather than acquire accurate knowledge of that God, i.e., getting to know him, they fabricate their own oversimplified transmogrification of this God or they buy into a massively appealing pre-transmogrified version of it for social, political or cultural reasons. The Latin term Deus Ex Machina, meaning "God From The Machine" or God From Our Own Hands comes to mind.

                  It always tickles me when someone says something like "I don't think God would mind me having a good time, singing, dancing and all of that in celebration to some other God or religious holiday." Are you sure about that?

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